[windows_chepstow]

Hi all,

I know one or two or three of you may have thought I was harsh with a supplier who regularly posts on this forum, but I felt I had good reason for doing so.

I've heard at first hand, a fair amount of negative feedback, read similar posts (some of which I deleted when I was a mod).  I've also recently had four e-mails from unhappy customers of this certain supplier.

This was probably the best one:

Tosh.

 

I read your posts on the [name deleted to protect supplier] trolley and they were all true, 3 of us have purchased these in the last 12 months and each one of us think theyre sh.te and all use them as ornaments now and infact mine just gets used to store my sprays and cleaning agents on.

Mine even arrived with a major defect and still has it as [Name deleted to protect supplier] never sent me replacement parts and I never chased it to much because if I had to wait as long for the parts as I did fof the trolley to arrive I,d be an old man.

At the end of the day all I have achieved in purchasing one is wasting a load of hard earned cash, I never submitted this to the forum as it would have been deleted straight away because you cant say anything or criticise suppliers on this forum but they can advertise and sell equipment without question.

Like you say backpacks are miles more use than any trolley system when your doing domestic work and if any of your pals down there want to buy one theres 3 up here for sale and they are a lot cheaper than anywhere else and are all like new still.

That’s my rant over anyway Tosh I,m going to go and enjoy whats left of the weekend now have a good day mate doing whatever your doing.

So, my question is, if you purchase goods from a supplier and they are not fit for the purpose you intended them for; how do you go about getting your money back and what - in law - can back you up if they refuse?

Is this too much of a grey area?

[Roy Harding]

I think someone with a legal back ground needs to answer this one.

No I wont put what I was going to say, I can  see your face now Tosh.

Roy

[DASERVICES]

  If the goods advertised do not meet the standards as advertised then yes,
  this is false advertising. Next step Trading Standards.

  If the goods advertised meet the standards but not your requirements
  then if they are a good supplier, they would take the stuff back as
  they know they can sell it on.

  Hope that makes sense.

  Doug

[dai]

under the sale of goods act any item sold must be fit for the purpose for which it was sold. If any goods fail to meet this requirement, you are entitled to have a refund. I'm sure the supplier of whatever system you bought would be aware of this.
If you can't get satisfaction from them, then your only recourse is trading standards.
Dai

[steve m]

if theres this much grief over a product, dont you think we should be made aware of it

[windows_chepstow]

So,

Judging by my previous posts in another thread, and this e-mail, do you think the person who sent me it has any 'right' to get a refund?

[windows_chepstow]

if theres this much grief over a product, dont you think we should be made aware of it

Read my back-posts; ignore my 'off topic' ones.

[windows_chepstow]

So,

Judging by my previous posts in another thread, and this e-mail, do you think the person who sent me it has any 'right' to get a refund?

What do you reckon?

[pylofm]

Tosh...Sometimes products do arrive not as they should....Do you not think it wise to contact the supplier and try to 'battle it out'?, the quote in your message does'nt seem to reflect this...I may well be wrong.

Just leaving it as is does'nt seem the most sensible choice but then again life is all about choices is'nt it?

Cheers
Dave.

[matt]

tosh

i will speak to my bro tomorrow on this, he will point you in the right direction

its his graduation in some law degree or something (its his 3rd, his last was his law masters)

forums are strange places, the sellers push there wares, we all know of suppliers who give freebies to certain forum member to "sing praises of the said supplier"

BUT

us consumers arent allowed to Criticize products

seems to be the case of having the cake AND eating it

[rosskesava]

Don't forget that when you buy it is important to state what you intend to use the item for and to ask is it suitable for that purpose?

Problem is in a dispute is that it is your word against theirs but from experience with the small claims courts, the court goes by what is reasonable.

A lot don't know how simple and easy the small claims court proceedure is and even more don't know just how many company's hate being summoned to one.

[pylofm]

I have to admit that I have ordered a [name deleted to protect supplier] trolley and was very suprised that [name deleted to protect supplier] person took the time to call me in Holland for aprox 40 minutes and ask many questions about what I thought my use's and application of their product would be etc.

I have not had many do that when I was thinking about a purchase, this I think is encouraging.

However the final choice is for the purchaser to decide if they 'believe' the product will work for them, a choice I have had to make. Granted if the product fails to meet is abilty to perform as it should or is defective....Then yes I will contact the supplier and try to resolve what issues there may be.

And no I am not taking a 'kick back' to write this.

Thats me done...cheers all and goodnight

[matt]

the best supplier is yourself

incase people didnt know, a DIY WFP site exists

if you build if yourself, you know what the parts do etc etc

[rosskesava]

Matt

You are unstoppable when it comes to plugging your website. I think it's great and thanks for the cheque except you forgot a few noughts.

Seriously though, I thoroughly endorse your website having built our system by using it.

Going back to being not happy with a purchase, I was disgusted recently with the failure of clamps on a wfp pole. I contacted the supplier, they claimed misuse, I asked them if they were there when the pole was being used, and so it went backwards and forwards for a month or two.

I kept records of every phone call, every letter, etc.

I then gave them 28 days to resolve the issue to my satisfaction and sent the letter by recorded delivery along with a completed small claims court form to show I was serious about sorting the problem out.

2 days later there was a knock on my front door and there was a courier with a brand new wfp pole.

It's important to know how to complain correctly and for that, the Trading Standards people are brilliant.

I'd try them first and follow their advise.

[AuRavelling79]

....... a completed small claims court form to show I was serious about sorting the problem out.

In a previous business life when we were chasing money I used this on a tardy solicitor and had a cheque by return!

[abacus]

HI all
well done ross if its the same company I think it you have done well.

People in general dont like to complain about faulty goods and or dont have the time a lot of companies rely on this so its important to press on till you get satisfaction.

Im not sure I agee with foxman that if you sell on forums your not as trust worthy as the bigger companies from experience I tell you that some of them are the worst  for being dogmatic with an attitude that all failing are down to customer missuse and  some have more flannel that debenhams

regards grant

[windows_chepstow]

No I wont put what I was going to say, I can  see your face now Tosh.

Roy

Roy,

Go on, put what you were going to say... I'd love to have read it.

But, Roy, I haven't put this post up maliciously; I honestly think this forum is great, and have made many friends (in real life too) because of it; and have gained quite a bit of work from here also.

One of the reasons I declined as a 'mod' was because sometimes I wanted to be a little 'blunter' than what my 'job spec' allowed me to do.

And when I saw something that was 'not cricket', such as the 'Go Anywhere' trolley and when I knew a bit about it; it was difficult to be neutral about the thing and keep my mouth shut.

So no victories; just honest warnings.  There's loads of good companies out there.

Also, someone e-mailed me asking me advice about van-mounted systems and where to purchase.  I pointed them in yours and Ian's direction for further information; since I'm no-where near van-mounted yet.  

I hope you advise him well.  I said you were both really helpfull guys!!!

(Also, when Roy says he 'can see my face now  ), it's because I actually do look like the smiley in real life; due to my slanty-Japanese-eyes; honest.)

Roy's a git!!!!

[supernova77]

Tosh,

I've been using the [name deleted to protect supplier] trolley for 6 months and I haven't had any problems with it.

The purpose of the [name deleted to protect supplier] trolley is to clean windows, and it does that fine... So how on earth can you complain about it?

You really seem to have a bee in your bonnet over it!

Andy

[windows_chepstow]

Tosh,

I've been using the [name deleted to protect supplier] trolley for 6 months and I haven't had any problems with it.

The purpose of the [name deleted to protect supplier] trolley is to clean windows, and it does that fine... So how on earth can you complain about it?

You really seem to have a bee in your bonnet over it!

Andy

Andy,

If you like, I'll forward to  you the e-mails I've received, but the one I put in my initial post just about sums it up in general terms, but to see my point by point critsisms, you'll have to check out my previous posts.

I have no doubt that the trolley in question is suitable for certain members; it's the selling to members - despite what the seller says - who it's not suitable for, that bugs me.

And the anecdotal evidence I'm recieving is that it's just not a one off; it's many of them.

[supernova77]

But you're whole argument is that its not fit for its purpose.

Its purpose is a tool to clean windows with, and it does that fine!

Andy

[rosskesava]

It's not the problems (or not) that anyone else has had, it's the problems the the person concerned has had.

It's not a question of having a bee in a bonnet, it may be a question that the company concerned for that person has failed to meet their legal obligations.

I use AOL. I've never had a single problem but a mate of mine has had nothing but problems. My opinion of AOL and being happy with the service I've had doesn't solve my friends problems with AOL.

Cheers

[mark dew]

it's the selling to members - despite what the seller says - who it's not suitable for, that bugs me.
And the anecdotal evidence I'm recieving is that it's just not a one off; it's many of them.

I agree with you tosh to a certain extent, but that can apply to any selling and not just with this supplier. Any direct query about a product is going to be viewed as a potential sale and treated as such.
We do no different when asked for a quote.
A mis-sell is just a subtle version of a hard sell i reckon, but as long as it does what it says i can't see how anything can be done.
You are the 1st to truly criticise it on here though and if it helps people make a more informed choice of what they are really spending their money on, that can only be a good thing.
Could always be better but i think it is a strong product and worth having.

mark

[JM123]

guys just chill, I know its not nice parting with lots of hard earned money for a product you don't like ( and no I'm not saying this because I supply systems), I'm not one for trolleys full stop - think everyone knows that.

what I'm saying here is to be direct with the supplier, certainly voice concerns, but don't be too harsh as some feel quite the opposite and actually like the xyz trolley. 

and sorry to disagree with mark dew but any trolley systems I've ever seen have just been the biggest waste of money, I just can't see where ANY trolley system can beat a van or trailer mount

[mark dew]

I just can't see where ANY trolley system can beat a van or trailer mount

I didn't say nor do i think a trolley is better or even a sustitute for a van or trailer system but it can run as a van mount which a backpack can't and it is detachtable which my van mount isn't.
It is also not as mobile as a backpack either and is over twice the price but it can do what a backpack, van or trailer mount can't.
Not for everyone maybe but good for me.

cheers

mark

[JM123]

thats a decent answer I suppose, I just don't know why anyone would buy it, sorry, this isn't meant as an insult to anyone, its just a lot of money for what it is - a pump, battery, trolley pole, varistream, sack trolley and an ro-unit (If I forgot anything then I do apologise)

[Ian_Giles]

I started out with a trolley system...reason?

It was all I could afford at the time, but as time went by I used the trolley part of it less and less, it became a mini van mount in the back of the car, then the trolley itself was left behind and hardly ever used.

There are drawbacks to all trolley systems, you have to adapt what you have to meet your own specific requirements, in fact all systems have their drawbacks, the trick is being flexible.
Some people may well have issues purely because they are struggling to adapt the system they are using, it doesn't mean there is necessarily a fault with the system.

But I also think that if a supplier uses the forum he has to expect both positive and negative feedback on their products and the service they offer..

Ian

[Paul Coleman]

To me it looks like there actually needs to be a defect in workmanship or materials to qualify for a refund.  I suppose that false advertising could be a separate issue.
Please note that the DSR (distance selling regulations) do not apply to business to business transactions.
Not sure but I think that if you buy something in a shop and the item is fit for purpose but not as expected, all you are entitled to is a replacement or a credit note.  Unsure if this would apply in this case.

IMPORTANT:

I am not commenting on the suppliers goods or services as I've never bought anything from this supplier.  I've seen many positive posts here too about this supplier and the trolley he supplies.  It has looked to me as if he has a good attitude to resolve any problems that may occur.

[steve m]

surely the answer to this is just to sell the offending item to someone that wants it. If you cant get on with the trolly, or like you said all it does is sit in your garage in the way, get rid of the trolly and get some of that hard earned back that you spent on it

[jinky230]

guys when I first built my trolley I got an 85amp battery from varitech

after seeing the weight of the battery,I thought this looks really heavy and would put a lot of weight onto the trolley.I phoned them and asked if they could take the battery back as I think I have purchased an item that is unsuitable for my trolley,The chap said ok and told me there would be a surcharge for items sent back.I accepted this cost as I was still recouping some of the costs.When I went to the post office to find the cost of postage it was about half of the cost of the battery about £45.The post office told me to ask the supplier to issue a return of post sheet as the postage to then was really cheap about £8.I contacted them and the chaps where great they said no problem.Is this not an attitude that suppliers could take,if they really believe in their products

jinky

[JM123]

yeah varitech are pretty good, I've had a few dealings with mike and richard and found them both to be good guys to deal with. 

[twt]

i dont have a freedom trolley so i dont konw if it is good or not but i get fed up of seeing the maker on here advertising all the time when this is not what the forum is about, he is constantly plugging his product so why cant people give their opinion on it when he is always telling everyone how great it is. If someone else who has bought one says its great thats ok but to critise it is not.

im probably gonna get moderated

[JohnL]

Its a shame but I feel this thread will change the feel and usefullness of this forum for a while.

All those people who post about a product they sell or about to sell will now have to think twice because some one with an axe to grind will grind it! If you dont like something or it doesnt suit you take it up with the supplier. There are a number of people selling products thro the forum and I bet they are now considering their future position.

Its no good crying in your beer just because a product is not what you thought it may be or isnt the bells and whistles you hoped it would be. Obviously products that dont work or need replacing is a different kettle of fish.


Why cannot members realise that what is good or bad or usefull or not for them may be exactly the opposite for another.

ie I am starting WFP soon and bought a backpack second hand from this site but will have to put it on a trolley because I cannot carry it. I notice Tosh does the same to move around. The next step is a trolley based system. Then when the business grows I trust some other bigger unit will be my target, and then in those heady far off days I will look at the big boys toys which is where the main suppliers come in.

So I'm growing - we all start somewhere, so the possible loss of posters who may be selling goods on here will be a loss which I for one hope does not happen.

Have a sense of reason guys and realise that what is goose for the gander may be not be strictly true.

JohnL

[jinky230]

guys I think I know where tosh is coming from

wfp can be dear and newbees coming onto the forum can get wrapped up in all the talk about making life easier for you,and totally confused which is good for them and which is not.To some window cleaners this amount of cash could be their life savings, and I think if these guys are coming into wfp surely they should have a cooling off period.It is not like a high street showroom where they can go and view the products as they are usually hundreds of miles away from them.Neebees coming into wfp must be advised to view products before purchasing, to see if it suits them or not.I said in a very early post why do the suppliers not get together and do a road show.
I must say after using the forum, and purchasing different products that my views on wfp is totally different from when I first came into wfp

we dont want newbees to buy the wrong product throw it in a cupboard and bad mouth the whole system,the more people who comes into wfp make it more acceptable by the public,and hopefully it will become the standard for cleaning windows.

if suppliers on qvc can give 30 days money back then I dont see why suppliers cannot give some sort of guarantee with their systems

jinky

[JohnL]

Interesting jinky and a good point but what about non-tangible items like software etc

JohnL

[jinky230]

demos of software are always loaded up to view

this is usually enough to make up your mind,it is usually a fraction of the costs

compared to trolleys or van systems etc people are just told you need this and that and that and you are up and running,nothing goes into the weight of the equipment, is it suitable to the vehicle the chap is using or the round he is using, but I wondered how many people purchased trolleys got them home and then said oh sh@t what a weight, or system placed in their vans and then said sh@t you really need to change your driving to suit the weight being carried
then it comes into mind oh wish I had bought a trallier, or bought a trailer and found difficulty reversing etc,some of these systems are really expensive if you get it wrong, I remeber an earlier post of a guy buying a hot system and guys advising against the system, we dont know what everyones needs are
but we would be without integrity if we did not try to help.

it is time a section was arranged on this forum with a few moderators taking the neebees under their wing for a while and reallly sorting them out, something that Jeff Brimble suggested, as nievity can be costly

jinky


jinky

[windows_chepstow]

I'm still getting the unhappy e-mails with reference to the 'Go Anywhere' trolley.

Hi Tosh. I hope you don't mind me emailing you, but after reading your
posting in the forum, i felt compelled to.

I purchased a "[XYZ] Trolley"..... Yeh....I said it lol.....last year
and
lately my varistream has gone belly up. It's stuck on full speed.
Anyways, I
emailed Andy about a week ago and not entirely suprisingly, he hasn't
replied.
So......I decided to email his bro in law at adepta engineering to see
what
he had to say about where i stood regarding a replacement. And what do
ya
know? NO reply. Is all this sounding familiar to you? It's not
the
first time they've both failed to reply either. I had some probs about
6
months ago which i chose to sort out myself. It seems they only reply
to
emails that have a pot of gold at the end of them.

This is the latest one.  It sounds familiar to others I've read though.

Has anyone got anymore?

Replies on a postcard to toshisba@yahoo.co.uk!

[D woods]

Hi Guys
Over the years I have learnt everyone wants you to get on,as long as you
dont do better than them.

When you do start to make a few quid you have to expect a lot of envy.
Dont know if this is hapening here, but its just a thought.

[Mike Jones]

surely any refunds need to be sorted out individualy, although there could well have been blatant advertising and clearly apalling customer service/ suitability claims / miss selling but dont ask me Im not a window cleaner

[Mike Jones]

The suplier is online too and no comment....

[JohnL]

The suplier is online too and no comment...


   .   .   and personaly I dont blame him, I have never seen such a blatant personal attack on an individual before.

Some weeks ago we went thro a similar discussion and I thought this kind of issue had been resolved. Obviously not!

Its about time a Mod wrapped this up because its becoming a personal vendetta!

JohnL

[pylofm]

Witch hunt?...this is all getting very sad....

I for one have no further wish to view this thread and as such will not....life's about choices right?

Dave.

[jinky230]

john anything I wrote has been addressed to all suppliers as I always do

jinky

[JohnL]

No jinky, this thread is about one supplier and thats wrong!

JohnL

[supernova77]

This really is getting personal and silly!

When I first joined this forum it was a place to come and learn, have a chat, get your questions answered etc... now everyone seems as though they are turning on each other.

As I've said before... I have an XYZ trolley system and its been great, no problems at all, the supplier was on the end of the phone and email as and when I needed him in the early days. I'm now saving up for a van system, but thats because the XYZ trolley has helped me to go in the right direction.

Andy

[jinky230]

John some on here might be refering to one certain supplier but I have came in to stand up for neebes and quality of service as you can read in my posts

is that such a bad thing

jinky

[JM123]

this is getting out of hand, its alright to disagree but I'd like to see the subject dropped/locked.  Think Andrew has had enough bad and good publicity from this forum to last a lifetime.

[JohnL]

End it now!

JohnL

[Trevor Knight]

In view of this becoming any more personal I have taken the option to lock this posting.

Sorry guy's but I don't want a repeat of a previous posting that also seemed to get out of hand.

Trev

[Mike_Boxall]

Hi

I know this is locked now but I thought you might like a suppliers perspective on this.

I'm sorry if this offends but it does strike me that some members on this forum aren't the sharpest tools in the box. On the one hand they encourage other members to buy the cheapest and then in the next breath they're complaining about poor service. Let me tell you, good service costs money to provide. If you want it you have to pay for it - it's simple. The more a company invests in it's equipment development and aftercare service the more you'll pay. You just can't have it both ways. I notice another topic running about Ionic Systems at the moment (which I think is on the verge of being removed) but the argument stands for any premium supplier. Sure, they may well let the occassional customer down, as we all do, but again you get what you pay for. In this day and age no company can afford to 'rip it's customers off'

To think otherwise is just ignorant.

Regards

Mike Boxall