P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Information about legionella
« on: July 05, 2006, 10:02:36 pm »
Hi guys , just need a bit of advice regarding legionella , have done a search on net but it does not give exact details on how the bacteria form , i am getting a bitt worried as in this warm weather i tend to have a lot of DI water laying in the yard and my little girl has her hands all over the place .....

I dont need to know what it does to you , i just need time scales really , how long does the water have to be lying around before it goes off , what are the specific conditions that it takes to grow the disease ?

 All help greatly appreciated , cheers Rich   P @ F   
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

jouk45

Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2006, 10:14:18 pm »
p@f what am reading just now says you have to use a dip slid at least onece a week, may be you have read this one,

11 The guidance now recommends that microbiological monitoring for wet cooling systems, using a dip slide, should be performed weekly instead of monthly. This is because a monthly interval was not found to be sufficient to pick up rapid changes in microbiological growth which can occur, particularly during the late spring to early autumn period, when temperature conditions are most favourable to legionella growth.
link here, http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/46-2.htm

symptoms   http://www.legionella.org/general_info.htm

 

What is Legionnaires' disease?

        Legionnaires' disease is a lung infection (pneumonia) caused by a bacterium named Legionella pneumophila.  The name Legionella pneumophila was derived from the original outbreak at the 1976 American Legion Convention in Philadelphia.  Pneumophila means lung-loving in Greek.

 

What organism causes Legionnaires’ disease?

        Legionnaires’ disease is caused by bacteria that belong to the family Legionellaceae. This family now includes 48 species and over 70 serogroups. Approximately half of these species have been implicated in human disease. Legionella pneumophila is responsible for approximately 90% of infections. Most cases are caused by L. pneumophila, serogroup 1. Legionella species are small (0.3 to 0.9 μm in width and approximately 2 μm in length) faintly staining Gram-negative rods with polar flagella (except L. oakridgensis). They generally appear as small coccobacilli in infected tissue or secretions. They are distinguished from other saccharolytic bacteria by their requirement for L-cysteine and iron salts for primary isolation on solid media and by their unique cellular fatty acids and ubiquinones.

 

What is the natural habitat of Legionella bacteria?

        Legionella organisms are readily found in natural aquatic bodies and some species have been recovered from soil. The organisms can survive in a wide range of conditions, including temperatures of 0 to 63o C, pH of 5.0 to 8.5, and dissolved oxygen concentrations of 0.2 to 15 ppm in water. Temperature is a critical determinant for Legionella proliferation. Colonization of hot water tanks is more likely if tank temperatures are between 40 and 50oC (104 to 122o F). Legionella and other microorganisms become attached to surfaces in an aquatic environment forming a biofilm. Legionella has been shown to attach to and colonize various materials found in water systems including plastics, rubber, and wood. Organic sediments, scale, and inorganic precipitates provide Legionella with a surface for attachment and a protective barrier. Interestingly, the growth of other environmental organisms is stimulated by organic sediment, which in turn leads to the formation of by-products that stimulate the growth of Legionella.

 

 

What are the symptoms of Legionnaires' disease?

        The incubation period of Legionnaires' disease is from two to ten days; this is the time it takes before symptoms of the illness appear after being exposed to the bacteria.  For several days, the patient may feel tired and weak.  Most patients who are admitted to the hospital develop high fever often greater than 39.5°C (103°F).  Cough can be the first sign of a lung infection.  The cough may be sufficiently severe to cause sputum production (coughed up mucous).  Gastrointestinal stomach symptoms are common with diarrhea being the most distinctive symptom.  Many patients have nausea, vomiting, and stomach discomfort.  Other common symptoms include headaches, muscle aches, chest pain, and shortness of breath.

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2006, 11:06:51 pm »
Cheers Jouk , i just did a search on here and found out a bit , it looks quite hard to get affected by it but it is possible , it seems that anything above 20 degrees constant temp for more than 3 days is the start of it .
Going by the weather i have had lately i can see and imagine that this is highly possible .

Is tap water at the same risk ?

The thing is my water is di'd before it hits my storage ibc , then it sits there until it goes into the van mount and di'd again .

I just dont know !

 Rich   P @ F   
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

Paul Coleman

Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2006, 11:15:00 pm »
Cheers Jouk , i just did a search on here and found out a bit , it looks quite hard to get affected by it but it is possible , it seems that anything above 20 degrees constant temp for more than 3 days is the start of it .
Going by the weather i have had lately i can see and imagine that this is highly possible .

Is tap water at the same risk ?

The thing is my water is di'd before it hits my storage ibc , then it sits there until it goes into the van mount and di'd again .

I just dont know !

 Rich   P @ F   

Someone on this (or another) forum used to make ice blocks of pure water in warmer weather to keep the water cooler.  They would drop a couple of blocks into the water periodically.  I understand that chlorine tablets can prevent legionella but I suppose this would mess with the water's purity.

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2006, 11:30:11 pm »
That was 24~7 cleaning , it does seem to be very hard to cop this disease the more i read , it seems more unlikely !

 In a bit of a tizz now !

 Rich   P @ F
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

JM123

  • Posts: 2095
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2006, 12:14:22 am »
the best way to prevent legionnella from spreading is to not have any stagnant water around.  The next best thing is to pass the water through UV light.  I think RO-MAN does a unit for this, I'll check now as I have been thinking about this for a while now myself.
Live life in the fast lane.......if you break down you'll freewheel further

Ballymena N.I

pjulk

Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2006, 12:15:38 am »
easy clean said -
Quote
i may sound really stupid here but is it not allright to drink the water after its been through di?

You can drink the water after R/O as most R/Os are designed for drinking water.
But i understand you can't drink the water after its been through D/I resin

Paul

JM123

  • Posts: 2095
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2006, 12:20:55 am »
Live life in the fast lane.......if you break down you'll freewheel further

Ballymena N.I

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2006, 06:43:40 am »
Rich
 you will find that  Legionnaires' can only breed in stored water,

but it is an air bourne disease in fine droplets, so the risk is even higher when your useing your system, to yourself and anyone around, if anyone's system contained it.

only know that much from a Dr who's house I do and the subject came up.

jouk45

Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2006, 07:40:06 am »
jeff, could you imagne if that happened if one of us had contaminated water, then going about your normal routine cleaning,  2-3 days later hundreds of folk ill, now i think that would bring a change into wfp work, nightmare stuff, but it could happen, :o

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2006, 08:11:11 am »
Your right Joe

The guy's who produce water on site have no worries.
I'll try and find something to post on the subject.

Never mind ladders being banned they will ban window cleaning next.

Its a good and very important topic, it would be nice if as many people as posible find out about it, and post it in this section.

JM123

  • Posts: 2095
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2006, 12:31:46 pm »
was talkingto a customer this morning - he's a microbiologist.  He says that there is a very small chance of contamination, however, if your water is contaminated then the possibility of infection is high, I use fan nozzles - got me worried, I think I'll purchase a steriliser to be on the safe side.
Live life in the fast lane.......if you break down you'll freewheel further

Ballymena N.I

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2006, 06:57:32 pm »
I think if Legionella was a problem in a wfp system , we would have had a case of it by now,

There must be a few thousand wfp out there now, and still not one reported case

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2006, 08:00:57 pm »
There seems a lot of confusion here, on getting Legionnaires' disease?

Now think about this…you can not get it from the water that has been purified? Why because everything has been taken out…0 TDS total dissolved solids   

SO

How would a window cleaner get legionnaires disease?

You would have to not changed your filters for a long time or not when your manufacturer recommendation and even then it would have to be when it been in hot temperatures 30 + c say if you went on holiday, then bacteria forms in the filters and then that is when you get Legionnaires' disease? You go out cleaning windows with this for sure you are going to make headline news

Andy     

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2006, 08:36:45 pm »
Change your filters regular and you wont get Legionnaires Disease

http://www.nfmwgc.com/documents/Safety_WFP.pdf

Andy

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2006, 09:30:00 pm »
Questions and answers on Legionnaires Disease

http://www.fineapply.com/Faqs.php

INPORTANT
Please read this downloadable file.

http://www.fineapply.com/Downloads/Legionella%20Risk%20Assessments.pdf

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2006, 10:07:31 pm »
I have just emailed HSE who are dealing with Legionnaires Disease.

I have asked if stored pure water can in anyway produce Legionnaires Disease.

As soon as they email me back I will post there reply for all to see.

I hope this will clear up all the confusion we seem to have.

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2006, 03:26:23 pm »
Had an email today from HSE, but it looks like we will have to wait another week for a reply, see below for there response. when I recieve there reply I will post it for all to see.


Thank you for your enquiry regarding Legionnaires Disease.
 
Your enquiry has been forwarded for reply to:
 
Steve Copping
Health and Safety Executive
Magdalen House,
Stanley Precinct,
Bootle,
Merseyside,
L20 3QZ
 
If you require to contact HSE again regarding this enquiry please quote the
reference number above.
 
I hope this helps, but if you require further assistance, please do not
hesitate to contact this address again or telephone HSE Infoline on 08453
450055.
 
Yours sincerely
 
 
Andrew Regal
 
HSE Infoline
 
 
  HSE is committed to maintaining your personal information in a manner that
meets the requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998.
   Sometimes, we may need to pass your details to another government
department or public body so that they can help you with your enquiry.
 

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2006, 04:44:30 pm »
Hi Guy's
Here is the response from the HSE regarding Legionnaires Disease. To Late to phone now, but I think this may clear up a few worries for us.
if anyone feels they need to know more, then use the reference No, and telephone number supplied.

Hi Jeff,
 
Your query concerning legionella bacteria and window cleaning has come
through to me.  You ask a number of questions in your message which may be
better talking through over the phone. However,  I am out of the office for
two weeks beginning tomorrow so in case you don't pick this message up in
time, here are some of my thoughts regarding your questions:
 
"Can pure water incubate the Legionnaires' Disease?"
 
The answer here is that legionella will not tend to multiply to dangerous
levels in pure water because they need nutrients to grow and divide.
However, most water will contain some impurities that will act as a
nutrients source for legionella e.g., contamination in pipework - you'd
have to go to some lengths to ensure that water is totally uncontaminated.
 
"What precautions must window cleaners take to prevent Legionnaires'
disease?"
 
As well as nutrients, legionella bacteria require temperatures to fall
between 20C and 45C for them to grow and divide.  Clearly in warm weather,
like we've had lately, there is potential for stored water to reach these
temperatures.   Therefore the approach to take in order to control risks
from legionella  would be one that took into account both cleanliness of
the system and water temperatures i.e.,
 
   keep system (pipework, storage tanks, purification equipment) clean
   if possible, take steps to keep stored water temperature below 20C.
 
I hope this has helped.  I'll be in the office until about 4.30 today if
you wish to discuss this matter further with me (see number below).
Alternatively, you could talk to one of my colleagues by calling 1051 951
4831.

 Paul.McDermott@hse.gsi.gov.uk

Regards,
 
Paul

Dr Paul J McDermott
HID SI4 (Biological Agents Unit)
0151 951 3405
 
Ref: AREL-6RLDHP

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: VERY IMORTANT ,,, PLEASE READ
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2006, 05:01:35 pm »
only know that much from a Dr who's house I do and the subject came up.
Is that true Jeff?
You do Doctor Who's house?
Cool.

Bet the inside are a lot more work than the outside. ;D