Joe Martin

HMRMC.
« on: December 18, 2012, 06:12:06 pm »
HMRC came calling today at the office, second time in 5 years.
This time we have insurance form the accountant.
The accountant is telling us that they are looking into business that deal in cash, late books and late vat returns. We have hardly any cash domestics now and all commercial is invoiced and paid electronically.

Mike #1

  • Posts: 4668
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2012, 06:23:12 pm »
I got told by accountant back in April that HMRC are looking into businesses that deal in cash as they believe that they are tax dodging basically.

That is one of the reasons i decided to use Aworka so i can keep far more accurate records of all my financial transactions . As i was always mislaying receipts and would not do my accounts every month and created a major headache for myself .

So got an accountant and signed up to aworka now i feel happy that i keep up to date accurate accounting which HMRC holds me wholly responsible not my accountant . Mike

Tom White

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2012, 06:29:24 pm »
Well, you can tell HMRMC that they ought to be looking into Starbucks and Co, the spineless bunch of gimps.

Joe Martin

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2012, 06:40:08 pm »
We rent a office and a lock up they are very interested in that, but all is OK and above board. We employ a lady to do the books and answer the phone so we can relax a bit on that issue.
We are taking on a rep to gain more commercial work as we have lost quite a lot this year.
He hasn't started yet and they are all over that.
Interestingly they have asked for our dater base of domestic customers,our account has refused.( not sure he can)
Work it out for yourself its obvious, hello Mrs/Mr..... do you pay your window cleaners cash?

ronnie paton

  • Posts: 3245
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2012, 06:52:36 pm »
My accountant is a tax inspector  against the tax man and has said they don't have tax men looking at companies smallish than a million ! Said thy don't have the money to deal with the smaller company and for about. 5 years.

simon w

  • Posts: 1588
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2012, 06:55:15 pm »
Same reason I've got this insurance. Had a policy for the past 5 years and fortunately HMRC has never came knocking  :-X but if they do an investigation it can go on for months and cost a pretty packet in accountancy and legal fees  :(

simon w

  • Posts: 1588
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2012, 07:03:44 pm »
My accountant is a tax inspector  against the tax man and has said they don't have tax men looking at companies smallish than a million ! Said thy don't have the money to deal with the smaller company and for about. 5 years.

Joe Martin must be making a million + then ?

I think the insurance is a wise choice. Anyone can be investigated by HMRC and if it's your business you either need to have enough free time and experience of UK tax to deal with it yourself or use a professional which without insurance could cost you a bob or two before HMRC have finished their business.

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2012, 07:17:00 pm »
My accountant is a tax inspector  against the tax man and has said they don't have tax men looking at companies smallish than a million ! Said thy don't have the money to deal with the smaller company and for about. 5 years.

Joe Martin must be making a million + then ?

I think the insurance is a wise choice. Anyone can be investigated by HMRC and if it's your business you either need to have enough free time and experience of UK tax to deal with it yourself or use a professional which without insurance could cost you a bob or two before HMRC have finished their business.

.......or join the Federation of Small Businesses - then if you get an inspection the FSB supply top quality professional help (usually ex-HMRC officers ;))

Spruce

  • Posts: 8364
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2012, 07:17:06 pm »
I was told by the Receiver when I first started to have on record the name and address of every customer I clean windows for, and have accurate records of each clean and how much it was.

When I asked why, they said that they need that so they could contact a selection of them at random and ask them how many times I cleaned their windows and what I charged them.

I thought at the time that this wasn't a well thought out answer for obvious reasons, but was one of the reasons for running George. Most of our customers know we run a computer generated work schedule, but how many of them will remember accurately how many times we have cleaned their house in the last year if the receiver asked them?

The first thing I did when we first started was to get customers names as its professional IMHO, but when we bought a window cleaning round, the previous window cleaner had no idea the names of most of his customers. His addresses were on a piece of A4 paper with a row of columns for each clean with their date, a diagonal line for cleaned and a second diagonal line for paid. At the end of the month he had no idea what amounts he had collected and when, although he could work out roughly how much work he had done.

So you can understand the uphill battle the Receiver has with cash only services.

Didn't someone say that they have a detailed weather report on each day of the year, so they have the upper hand when asking why you showed no income on a day. You may not be able to remember the exact reason why you didn't work on the 25th of March 2011, but you can't automatically blame the weather - if they ask you then the possibility is that it was a beautiful day weather wise. They would just presume that you were working "cash in hand". How do you challenge that?
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2012, 07:27:34 pm »
Im with the Federation of Small Businesses so can sleep well at night  :)

elite mike

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2012, 07:33:27 pm »
there is nothing wrong or illegal in being paid cash .

Joe Martin

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2012, 07:41:37 pm »
Spot on mate, what happened to us we invoiced a customer and never put his purchase order on the invoice and the invoice had no invoice number, it was a mistake. Why it happened we don't know as its a standard procedure.
 The company had a duty to inform us that the invoice was wrong and they passed this on to the inland revenue as its was false accounting. The company are a ISO company and they were being audited themselves, so they had no choice. Days later they were banging on the door, and no we don't have a turn over of 1 million.
 If you make a accounting mistake to a business and its reported or they have reason they will look at you.

CleanClear

  • Posts: 14238
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2012, 08:34:50 pm »
We rent a office and a lock up they are very interested in that, but all is OK and above board.
HMRC are really interested in the fact you have a lock up and an office? How did they display this interest?

We employ a lady to do the books and answer the phone so we can relax a bit on that issue.
Why can you relax on this issue, you're every bit responsible for them as if you compiled them yourself?

We are taking on a rep to gain more commercial work as we have lost quite a lot this year.
He hasn't started yet and they are all over that.

How do you mean...all over that. How is a potential plan to employ someone found by the taxman, and what interest is it to him? Again, how did they display this interest?

Interestingly they have asked for our dater base of domestic customers,our account has refused.( not sure he can)
Work it out for yourself its obvious, hello Mrs/Mr..... do you pay your window cleaners cash?

You're accountant really thinks he can withold your paying customers details ? Is he new ?
*Status*--------Currently Online---------

CleanClear

  • Posts: 14238
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2012, 08:36:17 pm »
what happened to us we invoiced a customer and never put his purchase order on the invoice and the invoice had no invoice number, it was a mistake. Why it happened we don't know as its a standard procedure.
 The company had a duty to inform us that the invoice was wrong and they passed this on to the inland revenue as its was false accounting.

You're making this up, you're bored.
*Status*--------Currently Online---------

DaveG

  • Posts: 6345
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2012, 09:36:14 pm »
Im with the Federation of Small Businesses so can sleep well at night  :)

With ya nose touching the ceiling...

 ;)
You can't polish a turd

Joe Martin

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2012, 09:38:25 pm »
No we are not, a Lock is up not the same as a unit, they have asked for a contract not just our monthly bill that is all that is shown, no our accountant is not new and yes he has withheld our domestic client base as he can only match what we return and as a whole the base is on the software in the office which they will look at, as they are looking for our returns to match our customer base. The lock up is in a small yard with about 7 people renting other lock ups, water and electricity is in with the price they are looking to see if the landlord is legit I assume. Our employee they are looking to see if any cash payments prior to start date have been made and who he say's he is. Relaxing is the lady we employ dose a good job and takes the weight off our shoulders with her work. why so obnoxious and big headed? By the sound of it you have also been investigated.
 As you know once you have been investigated they never let go especially as mistakes on our part were found.
our office is a disused shop we share with a couriers who asked us if we would move in and take part of the shop over, keeps cost down so looking for cash payments to the couriers.

DaveG

  • Posts: 6345
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2012, 09:50:23 pm »
I've got George with full customer details ie name, address, phone number, email address (if applicable) price of job, when they paid, how often they paid, frequency of clean and how they pay etc etc etc....

Also keep copies of all outgoings (wages, expenses etc) also on George...

I've got nothing to hide, so I can also sleep well.

You can't polish a turd

Joe Martin

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2012, 09:51:07 pm »
 So do we and good for you.

Dougaldum

  • Posts: 496
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2012, 10:35:41 pm »
Quote from: poleman link=topic=162863.msg1358522# ???msg1358522 date=1355858854
Im with the Federation of Small Businesses so can sleep well at night 
what do they charge   ???

Mike #1

  • Posts: 4668
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2012, 05:07:19 am »
Membership is £150 a year with a whole load of benefits .   

Tax protection

Legal protection

Free business banking with co-op with the option to use local post office

Fuel card which saves you about 3p a litre .

Discounted card payment processing service .

And a few others not bad for £150 for one person defo worth the money . Mike

Richard iSparkle

  • Posts: 2488
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2012, 07:38:17 am »
Membership is £150 a year with a whole load of benefits .   

Tax protection

Legal protection

Free business banking with co-op with the option to use local post office

Fuel card which saves you about 3p a litre .

Discounted card payment processing service .

And a few others not bad for £150 for one person defo worth the money . Mike

If you're just one person you probably don't need all those things!

seriously though,  I keep looking at it and will when the benefits outweigh the costs for me join.
iSparkle Window Cleaning

www.isparklewindowcleaning.uk

Dave Willis

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2012, 07:45:38 am »
It's all-right saying you're a member of the fsb but if you've dodged the taxman you're still going to get done, insurance or not.

CleanClear

  • Posts: 14238
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2012, 08:25:26 am »
No we are not, a Lock is up not the same as a unit, they have asked for a contract not just our monthly bill that is all that is shown, no our accountant is not new and yes he has withheld our domestic client base as he can only match what we return and as a whole the base is on the software in the office which they will look at, as they are looking for our returns to match our customer base. The lock up is in a small yard with about 7 people renting other lock ups, water and electricity is in with the price they are looking to see if the landlord is legit I assume. Our employee they are looking to see if any cash payments prior to start date have been made and who he say's he is. Relaxing is the lady we employ dose a good job and takes the weight off our shoulders with her work. why so obnoxious and big headed? By the sound of it you have also been investigated.
 As you know once you have been investigated they never let go especially as mistakes on our part were found.
our office is a disused shop we share with a couriers who asked us if we would move in and take part of the shop over, keeps cost down so looking for cash payments to the couriers.

I was just asking you questions about parts i couldn't understand. So, are they investigating because you've been reported to them for 'false accounting' or they are just looking for cash payments? I'm still uncertain?
*Status*--------Currently Online---------

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2012, 08:40:29 am »
It's all-right saying you're a member of the fsb but if you've dodged the taxman you're still going to get done, insurance or not.

Exactly!!

Or made accounting "mistakes"

YOU are completely responsible for your accounts, if your accountant screws up- it's your fault for not checking & rectifying their work. This is the stance of the HMRC. What insurance does do though is pay for the expense of proving yourself correct- which can be harder than you imagine!

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2012, 11:30:09 am »
It's all-right saying you're a member of the fsb but if you've dodged the taxman you're still going to get done, insurance or not.

Exactly!!

Or made accounting "mistakes"

YOU are completely responsible for your accounts, if your accountant screws up- it's your fault for not checking & rectifying their work.

But if you are paying an accountant to prepare your accounts and he makes a mistake, you have a legitimate claim against him for reimbursement of any expenses incurred by his negligence.

 This is the stance of the HMRC. What insurance does do though is pay for the expense of proving yourself correct- which can be harder than you imagine!

And this insurance can be VERY expensive - an in depth investigation can take weeks so if the insurance has to pay out for an accountant to act on your behalf it can run into many thousands of pounds in salary.  That's what makes the FSB's fee of £150 such good value for money - and it's tax deductible ;D




♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2012, 02:49:12 pm »
It's all-right saying you're a member of the fsb but if you've dodged the taxman you're still going to get done, insurance or not.

Exactly!!

Or made accounting "mistakes"

YOU are completely responsible for your accounts, if your accountant screws up- it's your fault for not checking & rectifying their work.

But if you are paying an accountant to prepare your accounts and he makes a mistake, you have a legitimate claim against him for reimbursement of any expenses incurred by his negligence.

 This is the stance of the HMRC. What insurance does do though is pay for the expense of proving yourself correct- which can be harder than you imagine!

And this insurance can be VERY expensive - an in depth investigation can take weeks so if the insurance has to pay out for an accountant to act on your behalf it can run into many thousands of pounds in salary.  That's what makes the FSB's fee of £150 such good value for money - and it's tax deductible ;D





No claim against the accountant IF you have signed the accounts off. My accountant (chartered) prepares my self-assessment for HMRC BUT... they send it out to me first to check & sign as correct.

Now, I'll be honest, I don't have a clue whether it is or not, I rely on them to do it correctly (that's why I employ them). So, I don't know whether this is standard practice or not?

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2012, 03:05:18 pm »
I'm not disputing your statement, but it seems a bit unfair to me!  We pay accountants for their expert advice, so how can we be responsible for ascertaining that advice is correct?

Your doctor doesn't ask you if you agree the medicine he prescribes is right for you before he gives it; an electrician wouldn't expect you to sign a waiver that you agree his work is correct etc.

The only part we should be responsible for is being truthful in the information we provide to them for them to prepare our accounts.

Dave Willis

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2012, 03:18:57 pm »
The way I see it your accountant can only act on the information you give him/her so if your information is dodgy then it's your fault but the accountants neck is on the line too regarding any investigations. Provided they have done their job correctly then it's all down to you.

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2012, 03:19:35 pm »
I'm not disputing your statement, but it seems a bit unfair to me!  We pay accountants for their expert advice, so how can we be responsible for ascertaining that advice is correct?

Your doctor doesn't ask you if you agree the medicine he prescribes is right for you before he gives it; an electrician wouldn't expect you to sign a waiver that you agree his work is correct etc.

The only part we should be responsible for is being truthful in the information we provide to them for them to prepare our accounts.

I agree with you Ian, completely. I'm pretty sure though (almost certain) that even still, the responsibility falls back to you. I think the stance is- you employ them, it's your risk if they are filed incorrectly!

Remember, this is the HMRC, normal rules & regulations do not apply. In a court of law, the defendant has to be proven guilty (beyond reasonable doubt) before judge & jury. With your tax affairs & HMRC YOU have to PROVE YOURSELF not guilty, HMRC will make assumptions & these assumptions will be treated as correct unless you prove otherwise, all at your expense too!! ;D

Insurance would be a lifesaver in these circumstances, even if you couldn't prove everything (it's almost impossible when you get right down to the nitty gritty) they can play an important role in reducing any penalty you may be lumbered with.

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2012, 03:27:25 pm »
Put it this way, I know a builder who ended up having to sell his home because of a mistake by his accountant!

It triggered an investigation & although the builder hadn't done what he was accused of- he couldn't "prove" it, so the HMRC "assumptions" stood!

gewindows

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2012, 03:35:40 pm »
It's all-right saying you're a member of the fsb but if you've dodged the taxman you're still going to get done, insurance or not.

But if you're not dodging the tax-man saying you have nothing to worry about is rubbish. A tax inspection is a costly and timely affair even for those who have done nothing wrong.


Joe Martin

Re: HMRMC.
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2012, 04:13:57 pm »
No we are not, a Lock is up not the same as a unit, they have asked for a contract not just our monthly bill that is all that is shown, no our accountant is not new and yes he has withheld our domestic client base as he can only match what we return and as a whole the base is on the software in the office which they will look at, as they are looking for our returns to match our customer base. The lock up is in a small yard with about 7 people renting other lock ups, water and electricity is in with the price they are looking to see if the landlord is legit I assume. Our employee they are looking to see if any cash payments prior to start date have been made and who he say's he is. Relaxing is the lady we employ dose a good job and takes the weight off our shoulders with her work. why so obnoxious and big headed? By the sound of it you have also been investigated.
 As you know once you have been investigated they never let go especially as mistakes on our part were found.
our office is a disused shop we share with a couriers who asked us if we would move in and take part of the shop over, keeps cost down so looking for cash payments to the couriers.

I was just asking you questions about parts i couldn't understand. So, are they investigating because you've been reported to them for 'false accounting' or they are just looking for cash payments? I'm still uncertain?
No we made mistakes in the past and got reported, now they are just looking. Its still an investigation.