[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

It seems that all the major machine suppliers now have 2 x 6.6 vac motors.

Recent threads suggest that some are trying to claim higher cfm's for theirselves and lower for competitors, but with the same 'engines' can there really be much difference?

Obviously some are series and some parallel but how much difference does it make to the amount of water removed from the carpet?

Cheers

Doug

[robert meldrum]

I suppose it would depend on how much water is laid down and that could be enormous in some cases with everyone being told they need machines to have pumps with at least 500 psi which is absolute nonsense.

Sure if you high vacuum power you will have the potential to pull out more water from the carpet but it seems to me that people are being misled into thinking you must soak the carpet all the way down to the backing and hope you can pull it out without leaving the base wet and attract the obvious problems.

Chemicals are so good nowadays that you can thoroughly clean carpets with very low volumes of water and you simply do not need massive vacuum power as there is little to extract.

Standing by for broadsides from T/M'ers.

[John Kelly]

In my view the bigger and more powerfull your machine the quicker you can do the job. I could rattle off a 4 bedroomed house in less than half the time with a truckmount rather than a porty just because you don't have to keep emptying and filling and also because of greater flushing action.
But the fundamental secret to having a succesfull carpet cleaning business is to get the marketing right. This one thing is what makes the most difference not the size of your vacuum.

[Billy Russell]

not the size of your vacuum.

Well said john, i couldn't agree with you more! 


 

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

'Equip for show, Market for dough'!

Cheers

Doug

[Shaun_Ashmore]

He's a poet and he does not it!

Shaun

[Richard Cole]

But the fundamental secret to having a succesfull carpet cleaning business is to get the marketing right. This one thing is what makes the most difference not the size of your vacuum.

So what's the secret John?

Thanks for the email with regards to the pads, also how can we order Dynamall?

[robert meldrum]

Doug ....

Not sure if you meant to but you just hit the nail on the head, reminds me of a golfing term, " drive for show putt for dough " ..........

[stuart_clark]

I can quite easily clean a full three bedroom house with one full fill of my scorpy! Just thorough vacuminmg is needed and good pre conditioning, but with pump turned up to about 250 psi with my four jet westpack with 1.5 jets i always have water left in my machine!
Ive had three ninjas in the past, the last i used boosted, but none of them compares with my Scorpion!
carpets are left much drier as well

[james roffey]

All the bragging about power from different machines does is breed mistrust in the suppliers, surely common sense dictates that if a machine has the same engine driving it then the power would be near enough identical, of course marketing is more important than equipment but as Jeremy Clarkson says you can never have too much power 

[richie]

Now that more & more suppliers are using the twin 6.6 vacs, Nick @ Solutions is offering a modification to the Jag porties (at a cost) to boost the cfm.  Will this though mean his Jag is more powerful?   Well i guess that depends on how the likes of Cleansmart and Alltec have their machines set up.  The Mod Nick is offering involves removing the silencer (which will make the machine louder) to let the vacs breathe easier also read on CT that they are changing the 1.5" hoses that come directly off the vac motors for 2" hoses.  This leaves virtually no room at all inside the machine.  Its a easy enough job to take on with any machine providing theres room inside.  As for the claims of machines with the same vac motors having significant higher cfm....i dont see how that can be.

[AJB]

ed Valentine claims the motors used in the Jaguar
are specially built for cross American 
Lamb Ameteks minimum one off runs are reported
as 100,000 units.
If they are offering a modification to improve the
through air on the machine, then it was obviously
wrong to start with.
Last time i critisied the Jaguar when they first came
out, and they claimed massive lift, i.e combined.
I got a snotty email from nick telling me to shut up
as i didn't own one so had no right to comment.

[stuart_clark]

It dosen't realy matter how much you Modify the Jaguar, they are not a Reliable machine!!
Ive gone through 6 Vacume motors in ten months! Joe Hatton Is on his Fourth and he only works part time!
Nick has replaced loads more! He has told me that! There isn't enough Airflow around the Back motor! Number two motor and so it fails! then there is the problem The shutt offs dont work properley and Diddnt on the Scorpion, I had an engineer friend fit for me a water level cut off probe as the Scorpion was always Inhaling loads of water through the Vacs

[AJB]

My first machine a Woodbridge Powermate, had
electrical float switch shut off, great when it worked
but wool fibres used to clog it up stopping it working.
I think the Jaguar needs holes cutting in the base that
correspond with the clean air intake for vac' motors.
Also a 120mm exhaust fan pulling air out of the body.
When it comes it won't be a remedy, rather a new
improvement to increase vac motor efficiency thereby
raising CFM's even higher than is physically possible 

[AJB]

Stu i see on the other channel
they are now inferring your Jaguar was not
looked after, and was so bad they destroyed it.
Never a problem with Jaguars, only operator
error.

[richie]

Well thats just typical really.  Thing is as highlighted above, there is obviously a design fault / problem.  Instead of blaming carpet cleaners why not just address the problem and get it sorted?  These machines are designed to work and a lot are worked hard.  Its almost sounding like you are not allowed to work them hard because if you do they will break down and it will be your fault???

[richie]

Out of curiosity i wonder if the Jags in the US that runs at 115v are having the same problems?  These vacs that are failing are obviously over heating. 

[stuart_clark]

Well Guys
I wasn't going to make this Public, but when I was on Talking terms with Nick White, He told me he was going to Kick Cross American Into Touch, And has Started to Develope his own British Built Machines, He said that he haddn't fell out with Edd, but was sick and Tired of the Build quality of his Machines, The Jaguar is a light and powerful machine, it certainly has more suck than the Scorpion! But probably more lift and less airflow! you cant have it both ways, But unfortunately there are a lot of Numptes on CT that will believe Anything that JB and NVW says! Sad realy but thats how it is on CT nowadays
I am quite a busy carpet cleaner and my machine would probably get at least twenty five hours of continual use in any one week! The vacume cut offs DONT WORK on Either MACHINE THATS DEVELOPED BY CROSS AMERICAN so you can see why the Vacumes swallow water from time to time
I had in ten months gone through 6 vacume motors! All number two, Nick white couldnt or wouldnt admit there was a problem with the machine, But other people have had the same problem, Joe Hatton is one of them! The same problem Number two motor!  I even swopped the number one motor to the numberTwo position and it lasted about a month, So how can that be operater error! ? Ive used my old Scorpion ever since i returned the Jaguar back to NVW and havent had the slightest problem with it! that was nearly four months ago! so you make your own mind up ?

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

If a machine or tool fails it is the fault of the user, we have all been there!

Cheers

Doug

[stuart_clark]

Alright Doug
It must be all my fault mate! Doh

[Len Gribble]

If memory serves me correctly the Eclipse machine was all down to operator error.

In the day Lucas fuel pumps were notorious for falling!!! some came up with idea to run a copper curl fuel line round it 

[john martin]

Well Guys
I wasn't going to make this Public, but when I was on Talking terms with Nick White, He told me he was going to Kick Cross American Into Touch, And has Started to Develope his own British Built Machines, He said that he haddn't fell out with Edd, but was sick and Tired of the Build quality of his Machines, The Jaguar is a light and powerful machine, it certainly has more suck than the Scorpion! But probably more lift and less airflow! you cant have it both ways, But unfortunately there are a lot of Numptes on CT that will believe Anything that JB and NVW says! Sad realy but thats how it is on CT nowadays
I am quite a busy carpet cleaner and my machine would probably get at least twenty five hours of continual use in any one week! The vacume cut offs DONT WORK on Either MACHINE THATS DEVELOPED BY CROSS AMERICAN so you can see why the Vacumes swallow water from time to time
I had in ten months gone through 6 vacume motors! All number two, Nick white couldnt or wouldnt admit there was a problem with the machine, But other people have had the same problem, Joe Hatton is one of them! The same problem Number two motor!  I even swopped the number one motor to the numberTwo position and it lasted about a month, So how can that be operater error! ? Ive used my old Scorpion ever since i returned the Jaguar back to NVW and havent had the slightest problem with it! that was nearly four months ago! so you make your own mind up ?

Any ones thats put a lift gauge on the jag has only come up with 120 - 130 " lift
the three stage in the scorpion should have a bit more ...
Mytee went with electro 5.7's insted because they couldn't get much lift out of the 6.6  , the electro would have the same overall airwatts  but trades some cfm for more lift .
Three 1400w three stages should have a little more of both really if you go by the figures , but i don't doubt the user reviews that the 6.6 is working well .

I wonder if your new Scorpion is plumbed the same as the older ones , perhaps there are some restrictions like the check valve and very thin out put tubes mentioned here .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRgRcLaGmt4

[Adam Surry]

no it is not automatically operator error. most of us are small owner operators, we look after our equipment.
there are some faulty machine designs out there.

[stuart_clark]

I might Lift the Bonnet on my new Scorpion as soon as i get time ! and see if there are any modifications over my old machine! The only thing that is apparent to me at the mo is neons along side the switches, but wont realy know if there is any improvements until yhr tops come off !

[Ian Gourlay]

What does Guarantee Cover

It is probably a question that needs to be asked when purchasing a machine

See if they come up with loads of get out clauses like British Gas in their Service Contracts

On the other hand if Stuart has had his machine replaced is this not positive a supplier standing by his guarantee

[richie]

Stuart, I can see and understand your comments regarding the floats on the Jag/scorpion because they are a waste of time, id even go as far as saying possibly the worst i personally have seen.  Yes they are there to do a job but as we all know no float cut off system is guaranteed.  So where do the end users stand with this?  I mean at the end of the day the float cut off system is there to do a job, if you are cleaning and the system fails to work and water gets sucked through the vac motors......who is to blame.  The end user would argue that the cut off system should have worked and the supplier will say you should have turned it off before it got that full.  So who is right and who is wrong.  Sadly more often than not it will be classed as user error by the supplier and therefore they will not replace the vac motor/s FOC.  

I have seen the comments regarding your own Jag and that they have blamed it all on you basically saying you abused the machine.......but obviously it was not fit for the purpose as it failed to cut off when it should have.  I am assuming that it was not just the cut off failing that caused vac motor failure because as you have stated your Scorpion is running fine with no problems so it would draw the conclusion that it was not user error and there was a problem with the Jag.

Also i think Dougs comment in reply to your post......"If a machine or tool fails it is the fault of the user, we have all been there!" i think what Doug was saying was it will always be blamed on the end user as suppliers will not admit a design fault

[stuart_clark]

Richie
I dont think for one moment that the problem with my Jag was down to water entering the Vacs, It was Due to the lack of Airflow around the number two vac! I always have used defoamer in both machines, and still do! I diddnt think it would be long before NVW tried to discredit me with regard to abusing the machine, in fact it realy makes me Laugh!
If water was entering the machine Via the stack pipes, Then why on earth is it just the number two motor that has always been effected ?
Surely both vacume motors would be burning out? Its not a problem with the Motors either! its the way the machine is made and the fact there is no ventilation around the motors unlike its competetors machines which have two extraction fans displacing the hot air

[stuart_clark]

Ian
Solutions only replaced machine, when i threatened to take them to court, Trading Standards said I was entitled to a full refund of my money, but they refused to do that at first!
Like most folk i too hate getting ripped off

[richie]

Ok that was kind of what i was trying to find out Stuart because obviously the way it has been said is that you totally abused your machine and when it got back to Solutions it was fit for nothing but the scrap heap.  Obviously there is always 2 sides to a story.  Glad you got a replacement even if you did have to go down the route of trading standards and the threat of court action.  Out of curiousity do you think there is a big gap in performance between the jag & scorpion?

[stuart_clark]

Richie
The Jag has definately got more suction at the wand, but so has a Ninja with a vacume booster fitted to it! As Amtek says one motors output is just short of 140 cfm so two of them is 280 cfm ! How can Solutions and Edd Valantine dream up another 45?cfm Its a joke realy
And yes there is two sides to every storey mate! Just lets See if the Jag is around for another twelve months? I think not
Its a thorn in  NVW  at the Moment and he is sick of replaceing vacume motors at an alarming rate, thats why he is developing his own machine

[Dave_Lee]

Ive been TM for 9.5 years now, before that I had several top portables most of them with vacs in parallel. Then I got one with smaller vacs but it was set up in series. The one in 'series' although with smaller vacs, produced much more suck and left the carpets noticeably drier.
Parallel set ups it is claimed produce more 'air flow', whilst series set ups produce more 'water lift'.
Well I have heard many arguments and discussions but the way I have always seen it, air flow, air velocity, whatever, isn't it surely about how much and how fast you can get the water out of the carpet, in other words - water lift.
Airflow is all very well but its about how much water it is carrying.
Of course with a big TM the amount of air flow/water lift is going to be many times that of a porty so is the difference is not that critical, you are still going to get the water out.
Dave.

[PaulKing]

In my view the bigger and more powerfull your machine the quicker you can do the job. I could rattle off a 4 bedroomed house in less than half the time with a truckmount rather than a porty just because you don't have to keep emptying and filling and also because of greater flushing action.
But the fundamental secret to having a succesfull carpet cleaning business is to get the marketing right. This one thing is what makes the most difference not the size of your vacuum.

Marketing makes the phone ring and the till go Ching!
 And power is everything
http://m.quickmeme.com/meme/367o3r/


To me the portable debate is always baffling as portable are sold on how powerful they are but they'd re all limited to a domestic supply from 240 single phase sockets namely 3000 watts x2 if you run two leads so 6000watts
truckmount start at 20,000 watts up to the big boys with over 190,000 watts of output so ok you can make up the gap with chemicals, but not the speed, and don't forget time is money.

[*Hector*]

ok you can make up the gap with chemicals, but not the speed, and don't forget time is money.

LM is even quicker though..... and a fraction of the price to set up with 

 

[Craigp]

Watts? I thought a TM pump and blower are driven directly from the engine crank.

I think people on here get too obsessed with kit, endless talk of best machines and chems, don't forget to clean carpets and make money.

[Mike Halliday]

ok you can make up the gap with chemicals, but not the speed, and don't forget time is money.

LM is even quicker though

 

No it's not,   On dirty domestics my t/m is quicker than bonneting

[*Hector*]

 







 

[robert meldrum]

Are you sure about that ?

By the time you set up a T M and got the wand ready to go, you could have pre sprayed and completed a domestic living room.

If manky you would have used an aggressive pad followed by a bonnet. Must still be quicker than the full time to clean with a T M.  :

[*Hector*]

Are you sure about that ?

By the time you set up a T M and got the wand ready to go, you could have pre sprayed and completed a domestic living room.

If manky you would have used an aggressive pad followed by a bonnet. Must still be quicker than the full time to clean with a T M.  :

I agree Robert..... just could not be bothered to argue with Mike today....
 

[Shaun_Ashmore]

I used dry fusion solely with various chemicals and pads but i don't think I get carpets as clean and spots removed in the same as using my tm if I can save money I will do if I could I wouldn't buy a tm.

Shaun

[Mike Halliday]

Are you sure about that ?

By the time you set up a T M and got the wand ready to go, you could have pre sprayed and completed a domestic living room.

If manky you would have used an aggressive pad followed by a bonnet. Must still be quicker than the full time to clean with a T M.  :

errrrrr..... no they wouldn't, they would still be vacuuming

the reason I made the point of cleaning a 'dirty domestic' is the need for additional spotting which don't come out with bonneting. yes cleaning a lounge that is not dirty then bonneting is quicker but I have tried to bonnet with my Orbit, a rotary and an Orbital rotary none did they job right when the carpet was bad and required some stains rinsing out.

on an average full 3 bed house I believe i would clean quicker than bonneting and i would even reach and clean behind the toilet and bathroom sink ( how do you do this with a rotary??)

[robert meldrum]

More easily than attempting it with a 12 inch wand that's for sure  

One way would to simply apply " spray and go " alternatively I'd use an old Argosheen trick of using a little swivel mop with an appropriate chemical.