[micsampip]

  Hi again,

I've got  a dilemma, as I am just starting out I wondered which direction would be safest:

1) domestic and commercial cleaning, which will give a regular income, or

2) one off cleans, like builders, house moving and end of tenancy cleans

3) I am also wondering whether to employ on a casual basis, i.e. the staff would be self employed or to take them on the payroll.

If anyone can help I would be grateful.

P.S:
4) is it wise to get a business loan for a van and equipment etc or would it be better to start as a one man band and grow slowly?
 

Thanks again

Lisa 

[dennis buller]

from my point of view,
just finished my second week, i am starting small with three hours canvassing a week in the evenings and cleaning domestic. i have learned quite a lot in window cleaning now from hands on and my round grows day by day. one of my customers when i go back next month wants his guttering cleaned so i am doing that on top of the fee for window cleaning. i got told told when it comes to bussiness make the money to invest back into the bussiness, saves loans etc. hope this has helped
DENNIS

[micsampip]

  Thanks Dennis, yes it has helped.

I've got three young children so I would really like to start a small concern, learn the nuts and bolts of running the business and grow it as my family gets older.

I was told by the business advisor not to do the cleaning, employ good people to do it and I should concentrate on developing the business. This I agree with, but at the very beginning I think it's important to know which products work best, how long certain tasks take, what it is like to clean in someones home etc etc.

I'm not keen in taking a loan until I know more about the business, done market research, have written a business plan and have the time to commit to growing the business.

Thanks Dennis

Good Luck in you new venture

Lisa 

[Jan K]

Hi Lisa!

I can't understand why your business advisor told you not to do the work yourself but to employ other people to do it.

When I started my domestic cleaning business back in September, I already had a year under my belt where I was doing all the cleaning myself, including working for another agency. I also spent 9 months putting together a business plan and attending some courses, and speaking to professionals to help me do aforementioned plan.

Then when the business officially kicked off in September I carried on working on my own, placed an ad in the Yello Pages (which went live in January) and when the work started coming in from that I then took on staff.

I now have 6 girls working for me both regular and casual, I no longer do any of the regular cleaning but I still do ironing (and I step in for sickness and holidays too).

I wouldn't expect to take on anyone and give them work unless I had already built up sufficient experience myself. Learn from the bad times and the good times. I get to know my girls and my Clients and am proud to say I know them all personally now. Some of my Clients will even ring me up and we'll have a good old chat!

The hardest thing I had to do was this week when I had to have a word with one of my girls as she left a job early and only got caught out as the Client came home early and found my girl had gone. The Client was great about it and I was firm but fair with my employee!

I have this week another difficult job in as much as I am going to have to let one of my Clients go as she consistently pays late, and I am not prepared to 'carry' her each month. I may be cutting off my nose to spite my face. But each Client know the Terms and Conditions and this particular Client is taking advantage!! I have given her 3 months to get her act together (plenty of time I believe) but it's the same old story each month! My terms are quite hard......payment no later than 14 days from date of invoice otherwise charges incur. And all cleans suspended until payment made. I have no arrears problems and feel quite pleased when debt collecting agencies call me to ply their wares and when they ask if they can talk to me about my customer arrears problems I can quite truthfully say I don't have any.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make (in a long winded way) is if you do the work yourself you are showing Clients you are prepared to work hard, and are prepared to give them the 'personal touch'. That also tells your employees that you wouldn't expect them to do something you aren't prepared to do yourself!

Most importantly you will learn and experience every aspect of the business you are trying to build for yourself (take a deep breath)!!

[micsampip]

  Hi Jan, I fully agree with what you have said.

I think my conversation with the business adviser was informative but I got a little side-tracked.

I want this business to work around me and not the other way round (if that makes any sense). In other words, it's got to be a manageable size for me to cope with.

I also believe that with an understanding of how to do the cleaning, how long it takes, etc (and this can really only be learned through hands on experience), I will be able to produce quotes with confidence, and understand the problems associated with the clients and the employees.

I will still go on this business course at the end of the month - they will help me to write a business plan. Then after half term I will launch my attack on the nation!!! (sorry, I have obviously been at home with the kids for too long!)

Thanks for your advice, it was just what I needed

Regards

Lisa 

[Jan K]

Hi Lisa!

Oh absolutely go on the business course, you can never gain too much knowledge and the business world is an ever changing place, from which we can all learn new things!

Good luck and hope it all goes brilliantly for you!!

[Sarah2005]

I am just starting out too and have been on business courses which I have found really useful so too would definately recommend.  I did a few courses and have spent 3 months researching.  I am almost ready to go now, have most of my equipment and products, just waiting for my uniforms to arrive, which will be in the next 2 - 3 weeks as being embroidered with my logo.  Also got to finalise my T&Cs and get my insurance set up.  I think I will have half term with my daughter too    Then I am at a networking evening with Business Link on 6th June, where I hope to pick up some Clients.  I also have interest from people I have met over the last few months and Mum's at the School who are interested in my services, so business cards are starting to go out slowly, however have held back as don't want to be unprepared and look unprofessional.

I plan to clean myself at first and grow slowly as I am also in a position to do so.  I feel hands on experience for me personally will be a great way start out, so that as I gradually recruit, I can be aware of any pitfalls and know how long it takes and what standards I expect to see from my team and be able to quote confidentally. 

I am going to work on the domestic market firstly, however would like to try and get in with the Estate Agents in the future to clean between rentals etc and would like to do Build Cleans and Sparkles too as I really enjoyed the one I did   

It can take time, at first you think it is going to be so quick and easy to set up, I thought I would be going my March, however if you want to give yourself the best possible chance, I feel it best to research and prepare until you feel confident to go. 

Good Luck

Sarah

[Jan K]

Hi Sarah!

Looks like you are nearly there then...good on ya!

I toyed with the idea of uniforms, but felt it would be too formal for my Client base.....we are a very relaxed company, and my customers like the idea of us being 'part of the family' so to speak! When I ran the idea by my girls they preferred not to have to wear uniform, and I must admit I am happy with that myself!

Just out of curiosity, what type of uniform are you getting? 

[Sarah2005]

Hi Jan

Hey 6 girls and you no longer cleaning, well done! 

I am nearly there and after not hearing from my first client in 6 weeks, she called me last night from Italy airport to say on her way back, she hasn't abandoned me and could I come in today.  Just done 4 hours upstairs and am back tomorrow once the kitchen worktops go in this afternoon for another 4 hours tomorrow to do downstairs.    Used my new 'Ecover' products and really pleased with them and they smell great!    Even better as I was washing my bath mats today, I brought hers home to do as she is really busy and she just text me thanking me for my work and called me a star 

Regarding uniforms, I too am not formal at all.  I am going for a very casual look with colours I feel will go with my eco-friendly cleaning.  It is just a polo shirt, cargo pants, white plimsolls, small waist apron with 3 pockets and a cap for when I do build and sparkle cleans, Oh and a sweatshirt with my logo on for when it's a bit chilly on my way to and from jobs and the School run.  I have my logo on the polo and my cap, can't wait for them to arrive.  Also ordered a bag for my kit with my logo on aswell.  My choices haven't come cheap but, it is what I want.  Considering getting overalls for build cleans in the future too.  Everyone is different, a lot of the people I have talked too like the idea of my uniform, however one guy I met on a course said he wouldn't want that, he likes his cleaner to just come in her own clothes so nobody knows he has a cleaner so it just depends.  If not having a uniform works for you, then stick with it hun.  Just used my new vacuum and steamer and they were fab    I think you have to go with what you feel suits you, your team and your clients and this personally feels right for me.  I am now getting interest from the Mum's at School   

Glad it's going well for you hun, it's nice to see people doing well and builds the confidence of us newbies. 

Sarah x

[micsampip]

  Hi again,

Glad to hear everyone is having a successful time. I am also thinking of having a uniform but it will only consist of a polo/rugby shirt and cargo pants with embroidery (eventually). I was going to go for the works before I worked out the costs and decided that I would wait to see how much I earned first!!

My dilemma is still what to charge. I don't want to be greedy but I will need a certain income to be able to expand and take on employees. I've tried so many times to get a price out of the local competition. They are very reluctant to do it over the phone. One of them said the going rate was between £10 &£12, another quoted £9.50 and another £8.50. All of them had waiting lists.

I was thinking of charging £14/hour after reading this forum but I don't know if I will be pricing myself out of the market.

Can I ask what you intend to do over the summer holidays with your children? I was hoping to be able to employ someone by then but it may be too soon. Or take someone on temporarily!

Good luck Sarah, it sounds like we are at a similar position and thanks for the advice Jan - it helps to have some their who's actually done it.

Regards

Lisa 

[Sarah2005]

Pricing......my biggest dilemma at the moment.  I want to charge £14 and think what I do is worth £14 but not sure it will happen in my area, however I would not work for less than £12.50 as I know I do a good job and go the extra mile.  My current Clients are really impressed with my work and I feel I give it my all so am not prepared to do it at the same rates as others I have heard of in my area doing a half hearted job, plus I bring all my own products and equipment.  I may just give £14 a go and if people in my area feel that is really too high, then I will have to reduce slightly.  My mate has got a franchise in today for me to see what I am up against, she has loads of questions and is going to get a quote.

There are people out there that are happy to pay £14, however there are also a lot who aren't    You have to consider, is it worth growing slowly with better paid work and feel happy enough turning people away, or do you go a little lower to bring in more work, without becoming a busy fool.

Another pricing problem we have is there are a lot of cash in hand cleaners out there that charge much less and plenty of people out there happy getting that reduced rate, this makes £14 seem a lot of money to these people from my experience.  £14 is a fair price I feel when you are employing people, providing equipment, products, insurance, paying tax etc as there are costs involved that the cash in hand cleaner doesn't have.  For £14 though, we have to be doing a really good job of it as if I was paying £14 hr, my expectations would be high!

Decisions, decisions...........

[micsampip]

  I suppose it's easier to bring your prices down a little than it would be to raise them.

I know plenty of people paying cash in hand cleaners and seem quite happy. Some of my v. well off friends wouldn't pay £14/hr so I'm wondering who would.

Maybe concentrating on commercial businesses is the answer - they have to have the place cleaned regularly and need quality and reliability.

I do think there is a huge market for the domestic side - it's just getting the price right!!

(I know those people paying cash in hand don't have employers liability insurace but then if the cleaner isn't paying tax she is hardly going to take any legal action if she has an accident!!)

Let me know if you find the answer!!!

[Sarah2005]

The problem is a lot of people can be very shocked at £14, however they don't take in the costs involved and realise that you aren't actually pocketing £14 at all and if your doing a great job then it is actually value for money.  However you have to gain the customers in order to prove this in the first place     We definately need to discuss the service being provided before mentioning the price!

I did 2 days at the Client I did the build clean for this week and went lower as she had me for 9 hours, 4 hours upstairs and 5 hours downstairs over 2 days.  This included the kitchen really being in a build clean state as full of dust and sawdust and at a special rate of £10, it was cheap, however she is really impressed and so is her boyfriend and they are passing me on.  I did give her this rate when I first cleaned and before I finished my full research and can't change it now anyway, however I am happy with this rate for the hours I am getting and the fact I enjoy cleaning their fantastic home.  She told me she expected a discount anyway and would have had me but not for so many hours if I was too high price wise.  I now have 2 days at his Mum's next week, I drove past it today, a massive beautiful home.  My Client told me his Mum wouldn't pay more than £10 for weekly cleans at her home as she has cleaners at her 15 room hotel that she would use instead, even if not as efficient as me (which I am also going to be spring cleaning twice a year).  I am going to contact her and say as this includes skirtings etc and is basically a spring clean I would be looking at £12 per hour in this instance as a special deal, even though she may think that is a lot    I will not be agreeing to anymore at £10/hr as I do have costs like uniform etc which they want and I am using my own equipment and products.  Once the tax comes in it reduces this amount quite a lot.  I also have a full day back at my Clients next Wednesday to do top and bottom as her boyfriend has all his mates coming over for the big game.  I have a couple more Mum's at the School too, so am really going to get going now, it's rather exciting.

Good Luck mate, I will let you know how I go on pricing and stuff over the next few weeks.

Sarah x 

[micsampip]

  Good luck Sarah,

I won't go any lower than £12, even if I get less work - I'm going to have to be tough!!

Lisa 

[Jan K]

Hi girls!

People will always try it on and get your to haggle with the price....that's the nature of the beast! I started off charging £7.50 per hour and am now charging £9.00 per hour (I am still a bit cheaper than most, but I have kept my costs down to the bare minimum....once of the reasons I never bothered with a uniform in the first place, I do all my own printing, accounts).

I increased my prices to my exisiting customers by adding that I would supply all the cleaning materials (which I wasn't doing in the first place) and most were happy to pay the extra. They would have been hard pushed to find anyone cheaper in the local YPages (I had already researched my main competitors before I put the prices up). Yes it is easier to lower prices, but harder then to put them up again if you need to.

Price yourself somewhere in between your competitors. Offer the Clients something different to the other competitors. If you start your prices low but need to increase them, you will need to offer you Clients something in return (thet won't be happy about paying more if they can't see they are gaining something from it....would you?) Best thing to do is to put yourself in their shoes and question yourself!

If Clients look shocked at the price you quote and say they can get someone in who is a lot cheaper but works for themself....ask the Client if that person has their insurances in place! I have a unique selling point......all my staff are Criminal Reference Checked, that makes Clients feel safe leaving someone they don't know in their house.

I could go one for ever, but I think I have inundated you girls with enough for now!

Don't get me wrong, as I have said in previous posts, I ain't no millionaire and don't think I ever will be.....my end of year accounts for 2005 showed a profit of £3.00 (is it worth it you say....if it was just for the money no, but I am building up slowly and my plan is to be showing a healthy profit in years 2 - 3), and even if I don't I am loving it!! 

Jan

[micsampip]

  Thanks for the advice Jan.

I just wondered how you  could make a profit charging the client £9/hr. After taking out wages/insurance/materials/NI/CRB checks etc. that wouldn't leave much left over. If you need to expand, buy new machinery and make a healthy profit shouldn't you be charging the client a bit more?

This is not a criticism I'm just thinking aloud. I know you're not in it for the money but surely you need some money building up for security?

Regards

Lisa

[Jan K]

Hi Lisa!

Remembering I am purely domestic cleaning, I have kept my costs down to the bare minimum.......

None of my girls earn more than the tax and NI personal allowances (so no worries there)

I had a grant to pay for my CRB registration fee, plus a start up grant from one of my local Business Enterprise company that paid for my Yellow Pages ad.

I already had a pc and printer, so a little extra on papers and print supplies doesn't eat up too much of the income.

The only machinery used is a vacuum, and the customer provides their own.

I obviously supply mops and buckets, cloths and liquids etc, but these have been bought in bulk and/or are re-usable and washable.

No I am not making any profit at present, but my profit will come with the increase of Clients. £9.00 per hour (for down here in sunny Plymouth) is quite expensive, with most of my competitors charging between £7.50 and £10.00 per hour.

In previous posts I have explained that I could no way justify charging any more than I am, at present. Some of my Clients are still on my £7.50 per hour rate, but if I increase I could lose them altogether. People down yer are very wary about parting with their hard earned cash, and I do find I am having to justify why Clients should be paying £9.00 per hour let alone anything more. But that is the nature of the beast, I'm afraid.

It is also very difficult to find reliable, hardworking staff even when I am paying £6.00 per hour (see that is where the profit goes). I have advertised in the local papers, jobcentre, asked around, but no-one seems to want to work, never mind!!

I do have long term plans, but my market dictates my position and therefore I am unable to build up quickly and makes oodles of cash! I suppose I am lucky to be in a position whereby I am not relying on my income to survive, and that I can take my time building the business up.

I love being my own boss and that makes up for every downside to running a business!

Jan

[micsampip]

  I am really going to have to get out there and find out what people are prepared to pay.

Thanks for your honesty

Regards

Lisa 

[Jan K]

Hi Lisa!

I did do a bit of market research too.......you know the sorta thing, standing out in all weather asking questions people don't like to stop for, but I got enough info and it helped my produce my 35 page : business plan (something else I had to do for the Business Enterprise people)

Jan

[micsampip]

  Have just been on the first day of the business course.

After a long winded argument, I eventually forced my middle son off to school even though he had a headache and sore throat, telling him to have a quiet day and he will get over it. (to be fair he often gets the Monday morning blues)

On the way to school the children reminded me that it was walk to school week so they wouldn't get a sticker if they didn't walk. Therefore I parked at what I thought was a reasonable distance from school and chivvied the kids on in a sort of walk/jog, got caught by a couple of the Mums who had important committee info!!! and after seeing the kids to school, had to run back (approx 3/4 mile) to the car at full speed. The course had begun as I shuffled in apologetically at the back - then sat there sweating profusely, with windswept hair that didn't look as though it had seen a brush in days, let alone water!!! At lunch time I had 45min to rush home, have a wash, eat the first meal of the day and rush back.

Just after lunch I get a call from the school to say my son had a headache and the shivers and they hadn't called me sooner because he'd told them I was on a course(cruel mother!!).

Full of guilt I called my hubby to see if he could pick him up. This he did but it didn't stop me thinking "what am I doing here when I should be at home with my sick child."

At the end of the day I shot out without saying fairwell etc (everyone probably thinking "what a weirdo"), desperate to get home to check on my son and found him playing footy in the garden with his brother!!!

How are mothers, or should I say main carers, supposed to cope?
Or do they just pretend to cope?

I hope I haven't bored you but it has made me think it would be far easier to have employees doing the cleaning right from the start, so I can run the business from home. This way if my kids are off school with illnesses it won't matter too much.

ps course was very informative and I met some very interesting people.

Lisa   :

[Fox]

Hi Lisa

Had to reply as reading that really made me giggle! (whoops sorry if it shouldn't have! )

It reminds me of some of the stuff my children do.  They are older now so I expect them to sort themselves out to a certain degree but it doesn't always work!  I have a business partner who runs our branch in London and I try to get down there once a week, I have to leave the house at 6am and expect my son to get himself up and too school.  After one long day down there I arrived home that evening and found him still in bed!  He hadn't got up at all! lol

It was his birthday yesterday and I started 2 new sites last week so have been out between 6am and 8pm most days lately sorting them out, I rushed home and got to spend about an hour with him before bed!  So I understand it is difficult.

The children soon come to know that if they want nice things in life then they have to put up with you rushing around and not always having time to spend with them, just ensure the time that is spent is quality.  I believe it sets them a good example for their working life to see their carers working hard.

Don't think if you get cleaners it will be any easier, just different!  Remember alot of them will have children and want to be home when they are sick.  I don't actually 'clean' any of my sites and am still out at all hours! 

I think I read somewhere your business advisor told you not to go cleaning.  I must say I tend to agree with him.  It is good to clean each job at least once so you know the score but otherwise your time is definately spent better building and growing the business.

Fox

[micsampip]

  Hi Fox,

that's very reassuring - it's not just me and my family then!!

Yes you're right, my children are going to have to get used to me working. It will be a big adjustment for me too, although I've been ready for ages.

The course today was about marketing and was very interesting, and more importantly, went without a hiccup!!

Thanks

Lisa 

[Jan K]

Hi Lisa!

I agree with Fox about getting the kids to understand about the nicer things in life and having to work.

My kids are 9 and 12, and I have to admit I am a bit tough on them sometimes. If they complain of feeling ill before school I simply tell them they have to go but if the teachers need to contact me they know how to. They all try it on and 99% of the time they sail thro school without a backwards though on how 'ill' they were that morning  :

The good thing with dom cleaning (and my Clients in particular) is that they are generally happy for my girls or me to bring our kids with us if they are ill). They would rather we did that and they got their clean, than go without altogether!! It's also a lot easier for us dom cleaners to manage that too.

Ah kids dontcha jus luv 'em

[micsampip]

  Yes....bless their little cotton socks. Thanks for the encouragement. 

[swclean1]

Hi folks,

Before i go on, let me say this forum site is very informative, and a god send!!

I am quite new to the cleaning business myself, i started this March, and seem to be doing okay, but my let down is my cleans are mainly holiday lets, which are mostly seasonal, but i get a very good pay.  i don't charge by the hour i charge by the size of the property and quantity of the bedrooms, as do most down here, and like i said before it's not regular work, my husband concentrates on the window cleaning side, and i do the holiday change overs, it works brilliantly, as he helps me at the weekends when i am busy.  then in the week i go out and help window cleaning, lots of our customers comment on what a rarity it is to see a female window cleaner and chuckle about it, we have great customers!

I havn't done any business courses yet and to be honest i had never thought about it, i see to the accounts etc myself, and i do agree that you have to get out there yourself and clean to appreciate what it all entails, and yes you are right about taking on staff who are reliable and hardworking, as other small cleaning businesses we know of are struggling to keep their staff, or they ring in sick time after time.  I havn't go that far myself as i'm still new to it all, but i can earn £200 in one day from my change overs, but i now need to get regular work in.

We are all hard working mothers who are constant juggling the home, kids and business 24/7 forget the social life what one of those then?

I think you folks are doing great!!!