[Jan K]

Up until this last couple of weeks, I have no cause for concern that any of my Cleanning ladies would try to poach my customers, mainly as I have a non-competition clause in their contracts stating they can't poach my clients whilst they are with me and up until a year after they leave.

However i provide one of my customers with a 12 hour domestic contract per week, (its a huge mansion) and the young lady i have placed with her has told me that she has been trying to persuade the customer to employ her as her grounds person and include the cleaning with it. course that gets my alarm bells ringing straight away and i have been pondering over inserting a clause in my customer's contracts stating that the customer can't poach cleaners either.

however i am not sure how i should phrase it or even whether I am legally allowed to state that.

as a further thought, if poaching of clients by cleaners or vice versa did happen what course of action can i take, legally, as the cleaner would have broken her contract.

this is the bit in my cleaners contract i have about poaching :-

.............Non-competition Clause with Done ‘n’ Dusted

The Clients we provide you with are Clients of Done ‘n’ Dusted. They are not your Clients personally. As an employee you are expected to respect the wishes of Done ‘n’ Dusted as to how you deal with our Clients.

You will not, at any time, seek to deal direct with our Clients, nor do anything to cause Done ‘n’ Dusted to lose Clients, during your association with us or thereafter.


You must not, without Done ‘n’ Dusted’s prior consent, directly or indirectly:

During your association with us trade in equipment, ancillary equipment or services in which Done ‘n’ Dusted trades, without the written consent of Done ‘n’ Dusted. Any worker trading in such a manner without the consent will no longer be supplied with Clients.

During or at any time after termination of your association with Done ‘n’ Dusted, take from us any business.

During your association and for a period of six months after its termination attempt to solicit or entice away from Done ‘n’ Dusted, any workers of Done ‘n’ Dusted.

During your association, or for a period of six months after its termination, finance or otherwise be engaged or interested in any business activity, competitive with all or part of the business carried out by Done ‘n’ Dusted, or Done ‘n’ Dusted’s Clients with whom you have had direct contact, within a radius of 10 miles from where employed.

During your association and for a period of twelve months after its termination attempt to solicit or entice away from Done ‘n’ Dusted any of its Clients. For the purpose of this provision a Client of Done ‘n’ Dusted shall mean a person to whom it has supplied professional services within a period of two years prior to the material date.....................

Any advice would be most appreciated

Cheers!

Jan

[Robert Parry]

We had a similair situation a couple of years ago, took on a new cleaner, stayed with us a couple of months, then found out that she took a position doing the same thing for a client, took them both to court and won, damages as well!

Not quite sure if the same would happen in this instance as -

A.  Domestic market, not commercial.
B.  Sounds like you run an agency type business.

Regards,

Rob

[Art]

Jan,

 Are you saying your cleaner has told you, she's trying to persuade your client to take her on direct??

If this is the case, take her off that contract and put her onto the worst one you've got.
Infact why is she still anywhere near this client if she's told you she's trying to steal your work?

Arthur

[*Chris Browne]

Whats the problem? if she has breached the contract then get rid of her


chris

www.scsf.co.uk

[Jan K]

Chris, I have told her that she is breaking her contract if she even considers doing that. she probably won't be too fussed if I sack her as she never intended staying with me forever and indeed is leaving at the end of December. If I get rid of her now I do not have anyone else to place her customers with, as I am only a small company with 5 employees anyway.

Art, i could take her off that contract and put her on the worst one I have, but she is already on it. its not a bad clean but an exceptionally fussy customer lol, she just gets on with it

Robert, no I don't run my business as an agency. all employees are like it says, employees. they are paid by me, insured by me etc etc

I have already decided that as soon as I have a new person on board that she will be taking over from my exisiting girl and i have already advised my exisiting girl of that.

my original question was am I able to place wording in my CUSTOMER'S contract stating a similar thing about THEM not poaching MY cleaners, and if so how could i word it

Cheers!

Jan

[Robert Parry]

Got it now Jan,

Sorry for the confusion, yes you can put it into to your contract, get one drawn up by a commercial contract specialist.

Your local chamber of commerce or yellow pages will be the best places to start looking for one.

Regards,

Rob

[ColinD]

Sorry to appear, yet again, on a Sunday, and lob yet another grenade!  The acquiring of clients from our employer is as timeless as the oldest profession! In fact the act of stealing a client from those that provided for us, is, the oldest profession. (Think about it…)

It is, unfortunately, a fact of life! I could say a lot about the whys and where fore’s of why it happens. It’s basically GREED! Sadly a human trait!

I would be very careful how you phrase the T & C’s you wish your potential client to sign. Too onerous and they will not sign.  A contract, stipulating a “none poaching” clause within your employee’s contract can be, and has been deemed a restrictive practise within the terms of current E. U Competition Legislation.

Example: Client informs you that they are not satisfied with the standard of cleaning, support or the company providing the service. They give the service provider due notice, without providing details of another contractor. (Not a legal requirement) The day the contract is terminated (the last day of the contract) the existing contractors staff are employed directly by the client. (Probably, for cash in hand! And for those shouting TUPE, read the regs!)

And as for dismissing your staff! Just hand your cheque book and keys to the company over to the lawyers, DWP and ACAS.

Competition is Healthy!

Now you should attack.

Attack One.

Ask your employee (ex or otherwise) if the person they are working for has employee liability insurance. (And, then inform them of their rights, or lack off, if they work cash in hand for effectively an illegal employer. You also bring into play national Insurance, Pension contributions, holiday pay, maternity pay, accident insurance etc;)

Attack Two.

Then ask the client, if their NEW cleaner was to damage their property who would pick up the bill. (Then remind the client about clauses within most domestic/commercial insurances relating to DUE DILLIGENCE.) Have they ensured (note the difference in wording, pedantic me) that persons working on their premises have the necessary… Do I need to go on?

Attack Three.

Walk away from the contract. Let the employee know that they are not to be trusted.
Wish the client well. (And when they return for advice or are in deep trouble add 33% to the next invoice.)
At all times keep your voice calm, keep your temper under control and remember, Revenge is a Meal Best Eaten Cold!

I could bore you with more, but importantly, we cannot take away from any person their right to earn a legal living or where they spend their filthy lucre! My filthy lucre resides, most of time, at the Parsimonious Periwinkle, not that I will see much of it again. Ahh but the relief when one stands and converses with Mr Sankey!

[Jan K]

thank you all for your advice, and Colin you have made me giggle.

I had already mentioned to my cleaner that she is legally required to supply her own public liability insurance etc etc, and I hope that this may have scared her off the idea. She is only 22 and straight out of uni, and althou she has a 1st degree in environmental sciences, she doesn't have much working experience or indeed any business experience at all. she did have a rather despondent look on her face when i started giving her the lowdown, and i guess reality dawned on her that it wasn't as easy as just asking the client to employ her directly, ah well never mind lol 

i am currently in the process of running an ad campaign for more staff so when the time comes i will indeed be saying goodbye to my existing cleaner probably well before she says goodbye to me 

Cheers!

Jan

[ColinD]

Jan K.

Now do not get carried away. A giggle is a giggle, but to guffaw.well that's a luxuary!

Seriously, well if I must. Please be careful how you define any restrictive practise terms with both client and employee.

Those little tin gods in Brussels have defined restrictive practise, and it is a b***h.

I actually believe in restrictive practises, but I lost he keys to the handcuffs last week so no fun for more me until I find them again.

C'est L vie.

[Jan K]

hey what happened to the reply with the piece i could have put in to the contract........did one of the moderators take it out, well that's a bit unfair 

[Cleaning Resource]

Chris, I have told her that she is breaking her contract if she even considers doing that. she probably won't be too fussed if I sack her as she never intended staying with me forever and indeed is leaving at the end of December. If I get rid of her now I do not have anyone else to place her customers with, as I am only a small company with 5 employees anyway.

Art, i could take her off that contract and put her on the worst one I have, but she is already on it. its not a bad clean but an exceptionally fussy customer lol, she just gets on with it

Robert, no I don't run my business as an agency. all employees are like it says, employees. they are paid by me, insured by me etc etc

I have already decided that as soon as I have a new person on board that she will be taking over from my exisiting girl and i have already advised my exisiting girl of that.

my original question was am I able to place wording in my CUSTOMER'S contract stating a similar thing about THEM not poaching MY cleaners, and if so how could i word it

Cheers!

Jan

 I have stated in my client contract:

   clause 1a:
 The client shall not offer employment in the same capacity to any person either curently employed  or having been employed by gleam services for all or part off the 12 month period prior to the completion of this agreement, furthermore this clause shall remain in effect for a period of 12 months after the end date of this agreement.

   clause 1b:
 The client agrees to indemnify gleam services against any and all loses or expenses resulting from the failure of clause 1a

  hope this is useful, i don`t do domestic cleans but i always put more emphasis on the client not offering employment to my staff rather than the other way round as i feel that they are more likly to worry about getting sued, staff don`t usaully give a rats......

[ColinD]

Hi,

Don't want to put a damper on your clauses, but have you run past the legal eagles. It sounds v much a like possible restrictive practise. Could be wrong, normally am, but just for safety sake, may I suggest you read the following.
 
"The activity to be restricted must also be appropriate to the duties actually undertaken by the employee. The provision should, therefore, take account of the degree of influence which the employee has with customers and the geographical extent of the restriction should be set by reference to the locale covered by the employee whilst employed. As long as the prohibition falls within accepted limits of time and area, it may be possible to specifically identify customers whom the ex-employee is not to approach, even though they may have stated they no longer wish to deal with the employer.

It has become clear following recent court decisions that unless the restriction relates to customers and employees with whom the ex-employee had a direct relationship then the enforceability of the term could be successfully challenged.

If your business relies on maintaining confidential information and customer contacts, you should carefully consider whether your employees' contracts adequately protect you."

It's a minefield. It's the period of exclusion within the clause that would concern me.

Have a look on the web, but again the advice differs. Well that's solicitors for your, almost as bad as Contract Cleaners.

www.compactlaw.co.uk
www.lawatwork.co.uk/article

Colin

[Lesley J]

I had a cleaner who poached 5 of my clients, found that there was very little I could do at the time, because of restrictive practices, but revenge was sweet, when the tax man and benifit fraud people caught up with her. I have now put in a clause on the clients contract requesting an introductory fee of £100.00 from the client if the
client employs our cleaner direct.  lesley

[Cleaning Resource]

  I don`t quite get my head round it all either,  my sister is a corporate solicitor(quite handy) (my brothers a doctor I`m not quite sure how i ended up a cleaner, i remember starting uni after that  its all a bit hazy)

yer anyway i`ll try to explain as my sister did to me, firstly the quotes i entered are only a brief outline of the full text of each clause

 I`m ok to request that employment is not offered in the same capacity( basically means can`t employ them doing the same job as you were paying them for)   there are a few other lines which go into it in a bit more depth
(this has something to do with redundency laws being that you cant make someone redundent and then make there old posistion available again for ex amount of time)

As far as the extention for the period of time it covers i can do this according to how long my contract with the client is for (or something like that)

sorry i`m not a solicitor i try to understand
also all of this depends on having a pretty water tight contract and having fulfilled all of our obligations of the contract.

I only do commercial which i surpose are a lot less likely to try to poach your cleaners. I only really bother with contracts cos its the done thing, they are all pointless at the end of the day any half decent corporate solicitor will wriggle out of most cleaning contracts. Although it does give a bit of security but if you have to reley on contracts to keep your clients then your doing something wrong.
having said that they are essential for things like ... an employee of one of your clients uses one of your vacuums without permission and hurts him/herself who is liable?

 final word If your clients are poaching your staff then they are not happy with the input you are supplying otherwise they would not feel that they could get the same job done without paying your percentage.

 final final word if your staff are poaching your clients then they are not loyal to you and therefore not worth employing, I put masive efforts into ensuring that every member of my team feel like they are part of the company and are going to grow with it....don`t employ deadbeets with the attitude of its only cleaning anyone can do it...cos they can`t

        I dunno if i answered your question or even if there was question come to think of it

  this place is quite good for practicing your typing six fingers and the occassional thumb :
 
 yer anyway its late and i`m rambling blah de blah dumdedum dedum dedum dum dum it`s all goin hazy again na night

[ianharper]

guys

one other way to aproach this the way that you give work to your staff. its all to easy to work them to the max. by taking on the max amount of work that you have cleaners toc over takes options away from yourself.

customers like to see to same faces each week as they fell relaxed about the standard of work and who is coing into the house, but you have to manage your business and by chaning cleaners around when you have problems helps put the cleaner off balance and keeps you in control.

only having one cleaner per client is aways risky. they will get over friendy over time and you postion is then in question as to why they two of them need you.

its very hard to MAKE people do somthing, if a client feels that they like your cleaner so much they they want to have them work direct most will not worry about contracts. contacts in our business are like bewear of the dog signs. when you dont have a dog.

worse case for the client is that they will have to pay you lost profit for the contact left. most people would risk that cost and look at it as a head hunter fee. and that they will save it over the next year by not having to apy you your profit. and thats if you have the will to take it to court.

good cleaners are hard to come by thats when we are in business. so but doubt in the cliets mind by check the cleaners work more often than you would normaly do. talk to the client about standards earn your money show the need for your service.

this will put confindance in your business and make the client see the need to have you around and that it would not be in their interest to go it alone.

talk about staff cover problems school hoildays etc. child sickness. give examples off staff being regular and then having family problems and how you cope with it.

its all about showing the client the need for you.

as for this cleaner i would swap her to a bad client that i wish to termernate and you might kill two birds with one stone.

also dont forget its a win win for both cleaner and client. the cleaner might get extra money and the client get the service for less or more work done for the same money. thats your profit giving the options.

respect

Ian Harper

[aderyn06]

Hello all
I am coming at this from a different angle and don't wish to upset anyone 'cos I think the advice on this forum is invaluable.
Anyway I work for a company and have the same 2 people week in week out, well until a few weeks ago I did. One of them took back her old cleaner who had not been well, so that was one of my jobs cancelled, now however her old cleaner realises she just can't manage anymore so the client has said she wants me back as she was happy with  me BUT she wants to deal with just me. Also a couple of elderly ladies have asked me to do a couple of hours each per fortnight which I have agreed as the  company I work for only take on a minimum of 3 hours so they wouldn't lose out. In all honesty I'm not too happy with this company, the owner has absolutely no people skills at all and I had heard from quite a few folk beforehand not to join them...their longest serving employee has been with them 7 months!! so with that, cleaning office desks with mr muscle kitchen cleaner, and keeping cloths together in her pocket  for toilets and kitchens I am looking to go it alone. Have informed IR and getting a quote tomorrow for insurance. I am sure you must think me ungrateful and I'm sorry for that. I must also mention that she made it clear to me last week that I was with her as a self-employed worker, the contract didn't mention about working for anyone else either. If I am self employed am I actually bound to anything. Please bear in mind before you throw the tomatoes that I haven't approached any of her clients.

[Art]

Hi Aderyn,

 You do realise that some of the responses that you might get, your not going to like very much?

What area are you in?

Arthur

[aderyn06]

yes i know, but i'm just trying to say that not all cleaning companies may be as professional as the ones on here, so does this mean that however unpleasant  some of the practices may be a cleaner should stick it out come what may even not being paid on a regular day just when the owners happen to be passing the bank.
I'm sure if ever I took someone on and tried to be good employer, i.e. regular wages and good working conditions etc I would also be a bit miffed if the nicked my clients. From what i have read on this forum people seem to be quite genuine in their approach to staff, unfortunately not everyone is the same. 

[Paul Kettless]

To be honest, I can see nothing wrong in what you are trying to do....

You have clearly stated that you are not attempting to poach your employers customers, but the truth is (as has already been stated above) this is part and parcel of the business that we all work in.

If the customer in question has cancelled the contract with your employer, then they are quite with in their rights to employ whomever they choose in the future, and if they choose it to be you, so be it.

I cannot believe that some of the members here sit back and say that our proffession is any different to others, can you honestly say that you have never used someone for a cash in hand job, or gone to a tradesman direct and asked if they can give you a price for a little job...

A member of my staff has recently left our company as she wanted to go it on her own, I have actually helped her set up her business, and given her advice and my experience free, also a couple of my/her cleints to start her off as I was making very little out of them anyways, and was looking to off load them in the new year.

The up side is that I have already taken customers from here (mutually agreed) and she has passed on more specialist cleaning to me (carpet cleaning, dry cleaning, window cleaning etc) So have I really lost out...I do not think that I have, and a little healthy competition does not hurt anyone.

Regards
Paul

[Cleaning Resource]

I agree some people dont desrve to have their own business, at the end of the day everything everywhere needs cleaning there is plenty of work out there for all of us, I wish you luck in your new business