[Mike Halliday]

Had an advert on gumtree for a new leafleter, it's been on 2 days so far I've had 9 replies,

Here is the advert...

http://www.gumtree.com/p/jobs/leaflet-deliverer-working-for-a-real-local-company/1053651160

I'm always amazed on some of the people who reply, you get the idiots who basically answer....." I will do it when can I start" to people who attatch CVs.

I'm going to interview two guys who are student.

I can't understand why more companies don't go down this route, there is a topic on here about having no work but we are Busy all the time and it's all because of leaflets put out by guys I have got off gumtree. I have a lad called Dale who has been with me for over a year, he is worth his weight in gold the amount of work he brings in.

I would seriously suggest people look into this

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Are you still putting the same leaflet out or did you go back to 3for 2 ?

Shaun

[Mike Halliday]

Same(ish) leaflet but now we are putting out 2 leaflets,  carpet cleaning & powerwashing

[Deep Cleaning Solutions]

£4 per hr  I hope nobody official sees your ad!

[Richard Cole]

I would be careful advertising as a job and saying £4 per hour Mike, minimum wage is over £6 now but your right to many on here complain of lack of work when if they followed your lead and hired off gumtree for casual / self-employed leaflet distributors they might well increase their turnover dramatically.  I'm looking at doing this myself in the near future but i will be doing it slightly differently in that it will be advertised as self-employed and i won't be picking them up but will insist on them carrying gps trackers to proof work has been carried out and pay will be per 1,000 leaflets and i might add a bonus in the form of a small commission from any work booked from leaflets within 7 days from the streets they delivered too.  Might also offer to deliver non-competing businesses leaflets, max additional 2 extra which would cover my own costs.  I've already got a gps tracker which i will be testing over the next few days but it looks good already as you can see them go up driveways and paths to doorways.

[Deep Cleaning Solutions]

HRMC are always looking at sites like Gumtree. I would change the wording to something like £20 per thousand or £4 per 200 or just don't mention the rate and maybe mention that it is a self employed position where tax and insurance is down to them.

I have always enjoyed your advice ect on here Mike, you are always thinking outside the box,
but I just think that paying £4ph is morally wrong.
Yes I know some distributors will only charge about £25 per thousand which works out below the minimum wage but they will not be delivering your leaflet solus they will be posting them with others so they end up getting a wage above the minimum, but with yours they are getting below the minimum and by a large amount! No wonder you are always busy when it's built on slave labour!  

[wynne jones]

That's £4/hr plus their benefit payments.

[*Hector*]

ever the cynic Wynne 

I used to use gumtree, and have now to date gone through 25 leaflet distributors. We spent a lot of time going out and interviewing them, delivering the leaflets to their door, and usually we got a good 1000 out a distributor, before they decided to try and not deliver them, and still get paid. Or just not bother with the next batch at all..

We no longer ask for distributors this way.. Maybe we were just unlucky.

[wynne jones]

When you drill down to what makes leafleting successful and people asking Mike to critique their leaflet copy you realise how pointless it is. What he has told you here is the real reason for his success and the fact he gets them printed cheap.

The hard part is like Hector says but I think that's a problem worth overcoming.

[Richard Cole]

Hector couldn't you just hypnotize them to do it for free?

[*Hector*]

Git!!!!

tried it.... but the majority who applied couldn't speak English, so I was onto a loser before I started.. 

[dan paton]

Minimum wage for the under 18s is £3.72 so as long as their under 18 no laws are being broken .
It's exactly what mcdonalds and pizza hut etc are paying school leavers

[benny d]

By the sounds of it Mike, do you go out and walk with them. Is this correct? Do you use a whip  or cattle prodder?

Good idea going out with them, if thats the case, but even though im not stacked out with work, I would find it hard to find a clear morning.

I wouldn't use words like "monotony", or "too boring" as it may put people off even before they start.
£4-00 per hour is more than ive earned this week  

[benny d]

What is the minimum wage for over 18's?

[dan paton]

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

[Mike Halliday]

I knew as I posted this the biggest comments would be about the wage, like dan said it higher than the minimum wage for a young person which is who the advert is aimed at, it's a crap wage for a working man but for a 18yr Old living at home it can be £80-£90 a week,  these kids are eager to find work and earn some money, it's not exploiting them it's giving them a helping hand


These young kids don't qualify for benefits and some of them slip through the net Of further education or other  government schemes for school leavers.

Wynne makes a good point, really it's not about the leaflet it's about the delivery,  we accompany them or drop them off and pick them up. We never just give the a box of leaflets and say " put them out".

I did a spell of weekend delivery where my lad to 4 out in his car and supervised them, blitzing big vilages & estates but this was hard to control I find having 2 part timers works perfect

Dale who has been with us for over a year accompanies to jobs and as we work he puts out leaflet, if we are early we stop on the way to the job and all of us fill in the time.

[Shaun_Ashmore]

I'd agree it is the delivery that counts the content comes next, the reason I asked you about which leaflet you were doing is that if you offer 3 for 2 then (which I don't think you do as I can't remember) was if the average spend went up?

Not a great believer in discounts as it can give the wrong idea for life time quality of customers but if I were to do leaflets I think 3 for 2 etc would be the way I would do them.

Shaun

[Mike Halliday]

A couple of the replies.... (Not the one from the the CIU member taking the pee )

All the replies have been from people under 18 apart from 1 which was a student who was 23

   
Dear sir/madam. I am 18 yrs of age very honest and reliable and very hard working. I am currently doing a college course to become a vehicle technician and I am on my second year. I only attend college Mondays and Tuesday's and I am desperately seeking some part time work to help with funds. I have my own vehicle and have no problems getting to and from a place of work. I have also done leafleting before for a few takeaways in my area. I was awarded foundation learner of the year out of 60 candidates and won trophies for my achievements at college. I hope this shows that I am very punctual and would be a good member of your team. Please feel free to contact me at any time on 07********Yours sincerely Mr Callum Brett. Thankyou. I used my mum's email as it is easher to apply for jobs this way. Thanks again Callum

Dear sir or madam. I am emailing you on behalf of my son he is desperately seeking any type of work and he is very punctual and polite. He can work the hours you provide except Monday's and Tuesday's since he attends college. He can be there at the pick up point 8am with no problems and the salary is perfect for him as he only receives 8 pounds per week from college. He is very short of money and I can't afford to keep him going since I am out of work myself and need to care for my husband. Please feel free to contact me on behalf of my son and he will promptly meet you for an interview if need be. yours thankfully Mrs Leeann flood. Or call on 07********* thanks.

[Radek Jablonski]

it's not exploiting them it's giving them a helping hand

just had a good laugh
thanks Mike

[Richard S]

We live in an overpaid society were some jobs are only suitable to those under 18 hence the high rate of £4 being paid.
If they don't want to work for that amount then they don't apply.
The national minimum wage was brought in to cripple small businesses and allow stronger companies to dominate.
In order for a small company to have 3 full time staff they would need to take £4000 a month to keep them in wages only.
I worked out that one year I worked twice that of an employee and he took how double what I made in profit. Go Figure.
I tried the under 18 approach and they either fell asleep, played with their phone till it died then fell asleep or just had more sickness than a plague infested village.

2p per leaflet plus bonuses on jobs gained sounds good to me...
You will never beat the old incentive bonuses.. Flyer then knock and follow up all leads.

Just remember myself and wages I earned which are the equiv to £4hr today plus I worked the now illegal amount of 70 hr weeks.

I now have only 1 member of staff as it was not possible to meet minimum wage levels. I did have 5.. God bless the Government. Can't wait for tesco to start doing domestic cleaning
 

[davep]

Mike how do you account for this in your books? 

[Deep Cleaning Solutions]

[Mike Halliday]

Dave I just put it down as payment for leaflet distribution I make a note of how much I pay out and to who,  then just write it on a piece of paper and stick it in my file that goes to the accountant.

It too much to fork out as cash in hand,

[dan paton]

Does that mean their responsible for their own tax etc Mike? Only asking as I'm thinking of hiring a couple myself as mine has quit and he was as the picture above . Do you give them some sort of contract?

[jim mca]

Would you not get them to invoice you as there self employed 

[davep]

That's what I'm getting at. Do you give accountant names of the delivery people?

[Mike Halliday]

Dave, No, just the amount paid out and from where. I do have the information if he asked but he never does.

They are responsible for their own tax etc but they don't tend to get above the tax threshold unless they have other work.

[creighton foyle]

 i am having leaflets printed at the moment for carpet cleaning and power washing ,how many leaflets a month do you put out and what do you pay for them ?. and of course approx how many customers per thousand.

[Deep Cleaning Solutions]

Another thing to point out is that if even if they have registered as self employed the tax man will still see it as you employing them direct. To be classed as self employed the workers have to be registered plus use there own tools, vehicles ect and NOT just work for one person, the HRMC have really tried to crack down on this to stop employers avoiding NI, sick pay ect. There are three ways of doing this. 1- employ them direct as PAYE. 2 - Pay cash in hand and take a gamble.  :-) 3- Pay them as Self employed, but you must do this properly Mike, if you where ever to be investigated the way you do it would not wash and you will be in deep ****. You need to cover your back. If you are treating them as self employed get them to sign some paperwork that they declare them selves self employed and that they are responsible for their own tax and insurance and that they do not just work solely for you and that they will use there own equipment, vehicle ect even though this may not apply to leaflet dropping. Finally they need to give you an invoice for work done, monthly will probaby do. I know this seems a bit over the top but i have seen someone investigated and something small like this nearly destroyed there business.

[wynne jones]

But if you were Vodafone they would take you to lunch. 

The other thing, which I'm sure has crossed peoples minds is getting Eastern Europeans and the like to do it. So as above if you are deemed to be their employer and they turned out to not be eu and do not have a right to work, you could get a fine that will put you out of business.

[Simon Gerrard]

If they are deemed to be self employed, then shouldn't they be giving you an invoice just like any other self employed person? They would also have to declare their earnings at some point, regardless of  how little it is, otherwise isn't that money earned in the 'black economy?'
It all sounds a little iffy to me and perhaps not something I would discuss so publicly on a forum.

Simon

[Mike Halliday]

Don't you think I'm aware of all the tax implications pointed out, I've employed leafleter for 10 yrs, I discuss this every year with my accountant, it's done properly.

But let's just try and find every problem possible to make it look dodgy

It might be better to fiddle with your websites or wait  for all your existing customers to recommend you or return..... much less effort needed and definitely less dodgy than this way of finding work.

[Simon Gerrard]

Mike,
I wasn't desperately trying to make it look dodgy. None of what you have stated is within my understanding of how to employ casual staff, or self employed people, that's all, but then I have a ruthless bookkeeper to worry about those kind of things for me.

Don't be so tetchy and wind yer neck in.

Simon

[Mike Halliday]

Sorry Simon my replies was not in response to your post in particular, more the general response to the idea.

Although I knew as I typed the topic what replies I would get, but if it's sparked an idea in someone's head then it was worth it....plus it makes CIU a more interesting read

[Simon Gerrard]

Mike,
Fair dinkum. Hope it works out for you. I hope you like long walks

Simon

[jim mca]

Mike

 Thanks for the insight on how you make leaflets work how many leaflets would you expect a Leafleter to deliver in three hours to average new build houses

Jim

[Mike Halliday]

Approx 400-500

We do it in 90min to 2 hr stints, you can't expect them to do 3 hrs in one go, they can  do  it  for a week then they'll jack it in.

We try and put a coffee break in the middle or just pick them up and move areas