[Chris - CBWC]

I've recently left my boring office job to start a WC business and will be buying ladders shortly.  A few people have mentioned to me that some legislation is trying to be forced through stopping the use of ladders on safety issues.  Does anyone know exactly what is going on and when/if the legislation will go through?  I'm going to learn the traditional method before even thinking about wfps but it would help to know if I don't have long before I need to switch.

Cheers

Chris

[DP]

There is mountings of info on here about this subject. Do a search (button up top). 

[rosskesava]

Hi Chris

Great that you've left your office job. I had a seriously boring job also. Keep posting and keep asking questions and keep posting, and question the answers.

It all may seem a bit bewildering but it isn't really.

Just be sensible when using ladders.

There isn't just a mountain of info about the newish regulations........

There is a stairway that goes right up to the moon and back but it's not so complex really. Some will say it is. Some will say ladders are baned but they aren't. Some will give great advise.

Anyways - it's a great forum. Welcome.

Cheers

[John Conroy]

New regulations http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf#search='New%20working%20at%20height%20regulations' come out April of last year, and a update which is more  specific for the window cleaning industry is due out in weeks from HSE    

[Chris - CBWC]

Thanks very much Ross & John.  I had searched the forum for 'legislation' - a lot of hits but nothing seemed to be what I was looking for.  I won't be getting my ladders for about a week so would be a big shame if I'd have to stop using them a couple of weeks later, we shall see.  Spent an hour outside cleaning my neighbours' windows just practising over and over until I didn't leave some sort of smear or line - picked up a handful of potential customers already, just for being outside!

Cheers

Chris

[windows_chepstow]

I reckon, and I have read the rules, that using a ladder for routine window cleaning is illegal.  Full Stop.

The guidance notes say that the principle behind the regulations is that 'working at height should be avoided where-ever possible'.

[windows_chepstow]

Oh, and just because I understand the regulations, doesn't mean I always comply with them mind!

I still use a ladder if I think a job is going to be easier or quicker.  I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, but it's my choice whether I want to risk injuring myself; not the governments.

[Moderator David@stives]

Tosh

You also have to think of the consequences if you fell of your ladder and fell on an oap or a small child even an adult.

The hse would investigate and probably fine you for some breach of the WAHD
As well as being sued by the injured party.

Also bear in mind the loss of earnings by not being able to work because of your injuries.

so it is not all about the risk to you ,it is the risk to the public you should also be concerned about.

Dave

[windows_chepstow]

Tosh

You also have to think of the consequences if you fell of your ladder and fell on an oap or a small child even an adult.

The hse would investigate and probably fine you for some breach of the WAHD
As well as being sued by the injured party.

Also bear in mind the loss of earnings by not being able to work because of your injuries.

so it is not all about the risk to you ,it is the risk to the public you should also be concerned about.

Dave

Sorry Dave,

I'm not sure if you're being serious here!

I'll sometimes go 'ladders only' if there's a garage to climb or flat roof to negotiate as getting both ladders and WFP kit is a bit of a chore.

I reckon the chances of me falling on someone while cleaning Missis Smith's windows at 101 Alpha Road are practically nil.  My round is 90% residential.

Also, HSE's MISC 613 (now defunct) basically said that ladders used correctly and within certain parameters are safe!  Just because MISC 613 has been updated by the WAHD doesn't mean it's original intent is incorrect.

Of course, having a WFP, any window that I think is even slightly dodgy, I'd pole it or leave it.

My point was that I am not anti-ladder; just stating the correct interpretation of the rules with no axe to grind or product to sell.

I'm not going to fight you; or anyone else over this.

Smoking kills more people than working at height, but the government doesn't ban that!

I wonder why that is?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

All that aside, I was speaking to a window cleaner from Caldicot (Tim) yesturday whose (copied me) and just purchased a back pack, pole etc and was awaiting his RO/DI.

I told him if he wanted some pure water, I'd give him as much as he wanted for the price of a bottle of wine.

He's comming to get some for a hotel he does where he's perched on the second-from-top rung of his (domestic) ladder and still having to reach with a short pole.

That's dodgy!

[Stephen@Belper]

Tosh is totaly correct, the new regs say

You MUST ensure that no work is done at height if it is safe and reasonably practicable to do it other than at height. (direct quote from the regs)

It is safe and reasonably practicle to do 99.9% of all window cleaning other than at height, ie wfp. It has been proved to be reasonably practicle even on domestic houses by many window cleaners, there is in my opinion now no question about it. So using a ladder to clean windows, unless you can prove it is the safest method is not legal. There has been a prosecution already, no accident involved, he was simply seen using an unsecured ladder. Personlay I would rather spend the grand on setting up wfp rather than giving it to the hse and then having to set up anyway.  JUst my humble opinion.

[Moderator David@stives]

Tosh


I was merely adding to what you had said and highlighting the fact you are responsible for public safety moreso than your own.

Dave

[windows_chepstow]

No probs Dave!

I saw Tony Blair on TV a week or so ago denying that we live in a 'Nanny State'.

Apparantly the French have their own health and safety system which basically says, if you want to take the risk; that's up to you (but I only got this information from a Jeremy Clarkson programme, so don't hold me to it).

As long as I take a calcuated risk, as we all do when crossing roads or driving, then that's upto me.

This morning, not 200 meters from where I live, a bloke was hit by a bus and killed.  (It caused major havoc in the Chepstow area; tailbacks everywhere).

I only use a WFP because it's quicker and less physically demanding than using ladders.

Today I earnt (I know you hate talking money) £120.  But it only took me two-hours (my best account) to make it.  It's a leaded-windowed hotel.

I used ladders once to climb on a flat roofed area, with a Rojak Ladder Stopper.

I then - for free - helped the gardener to shovel a huge pile of burnt debris into one of those large bins hotels have.  (The gardener is old and recently twisted his ankle falling off a ladder; I swear this is true; and damaged his shoulder also trying to protect the hedge-trimmer he had in his hand).

Just to help someone out; and to kill a bit of time before I collected my cheque.

WFP is the best thing that's ever been invented for window cleaners.

Never mind the safety fringe-benifit!

[dai]

There has been a prosecution already, no accident involved, he was simply seen using an unsecured ladder
Where was this, and what were the circumstances. I'm really interested in this one.
DAi

[Stephen@Belper]

sorry dont know those details, the report was in the Professional Window Cleaner magazine, latest issue.

[Sir Squeaky]

I'd love to see them try that one on me.
I'd fight it to the end, and they could never say "everyone knows"
If it was law it would be all over the news and in the papers.

There's no actual law, just guidelines.

Hundreds of thousands of tradesmen would be out of work.
Don't make me laugh.

 :

[Stephen@Belper]

Actualy it has been all over th e papers and tv, where have you been? even my local paper a tiny weekly, posted an article last April with a warning for all tradesmen who use ladders to make sure they comply with the new regulations. The regs became law on 6th April 2005 hence the HSE being able to prosecute tradesmen who dont comply...still its up to you, your problem if you dont comply and get prosecuted, and if you have an accident and your insurance refuse to pay up because you were not complying with current law( they look for any loophole anyway to get out of paying) then its your problem again, so to be honest its no skin of my nose what you do, I was just stating facts and its up to each individual what they do about just as it was up to me to decide whether to comply or not. regards ste

[Sarah Sarill]

There has been a prosecution already, no accident involved, he was simply seen using an unsecured ladder
Where was this, and what were the circumstances. I'm really interested in this one.
DAi

Steven, 

I was also interested to read more about this one because we all know prosecutions have been made post accident but to date  have not heard about prosecutions based on poor equipment.  I cannot see this article in either the December or October editions of The Professional Window Cleaner.

Are you sure your not refeering to this :-

Hotel prosecuted after window cleaner falls
The Savoy Hotel, owned by the Savoy Group was fined £6000 plus £16000 in costs after a window cleaner fell 40 feet. The Hotel pleaded guilty to charges under the ‘Health & Safety at Work’ and the ‘Management of Health & Safety at Work’ regulations for failing to manage risks to its window-cleaning contractors.
(Article taken from Window Talk)

You see there is a big difference between post and pre accident prosecution and if you are correct that puts a whole new slant on traditional v's wfp.

Sarah

[Stephen@Belper]

Page 9 December issue.

[Londoner]

Who cares about the new legislation? the most compelling fact about WFPs to me has nothing to do with the law or safety.

You can clean windows with a WFP more quickly than you can by trad methods. Thats a fact, and it means you will make money more quickly as well.

So on that basis its got to be better. I go out in the mornings to make money.

[Morph]

I'd love to see them try that one on me.
I'd fight it to the end, and they could never say "everyone knows"
If it was law it would be all over the news and in the papers.

There's no actual law, just guidelines.

Hundreds of thousands of tradesmen would be out of work.
Don't make me laugh.

 :

This is the same old debate about words.
HSE has stated new "guidelines" for the use of ladders.  It is a WAH directive, that broadly includes the use of ladders by window cleaners.
I have read the Directive, I have read the magazine articles, newspaper articles, all the tv reports.  
Everything I've read on forums and in magazines has either been someone's opinion, or something they heard from someone else, or how they interpreted the issues raised in a court case.
The use of ladders is not banned, but there are obvious risks.  Take chances when using them, and should you have any kind of accident, you may face legal questions over the new directive.
So far, most of the "chat" is a storm in a tea cup.  "Talked up" especially by wfp suppliers and supporters.  Don't get me wrong, I am now WFP and never going back, but just be careful with the facts.

"Somebody said that somebody said
Trouble was started when rumours were spread"

Rog - Last of the Mohicans - Stand firm.  Be safe.
By the way, you bought a pole yet?

Who cares about the new legislation? the most compelling fact about WFPs to me has nothing to do with the law or safety.

You can clean windows with a WFP more quickly than you can by trad methods. Thats a fact, and it means you will make money more quickly as well.

So on that basis its got to be better. I go out in the mornings to make money.

I agree 100%.  Plus of course you can't fall off the ground so easily.

All these greedy profiteers hiding behind a masquerade of concern for being law abiding!
Huh, I wonder how many of these do - gooders so concerned about the new law - speed, drive whilst on the phone, smoke, drink too much, or put their lives or the lives of others at risk maybe even unknowingly in some way every week!

[williamx]

I'd love to see them try that one on me.
I'd fight it to the end, and they could never say "everyone knows"
If it was law it would be all over the news and in the papers.

There's no actual law, just guidelines.

Hundreds of thousands of tradesmen would be out of work.
Don't make me laugh.

 :

Not knowing about the law, and what is legal or not cannot be used as your defence.

[Londoner]

I don't think it matters either way. Like most laws they only work if someone is there to police them. I don't think anyone but us is getting worked up about these new regs .

I was talking to a roofer ( who incidentally charged me £96 for an hour and a halfs work ) and he had never even heard about the working from height regs. And if I told you his reply in full the moderator would delete my posting.