[simbag]

Hello guys and girls,

I am currently in the process of deciding which way to go over to wfp. The only definite decision I have made is that I will be buying a new van, and a van mount.

When I went to windex I was motivated to push my business on, a decided to take the plunge into the wfp market, probably not the best time, considering current water situation. Nevertheless, I will perservere. I have a reasonably small customer base at present, but I am feeling that to introduce it now would be better, as I can then hopefully smooth out any possible teething problems before I can get behind in work.

I am going to get around a 350 ltr tank, but am having trouble decided on whose system to go for. I saw an Ionics demo on Mon, and had a Tucker demo on Weds. I have also been looking a two other smaller manufacturers, Streampole, and Essentially Pure. Each of these system has its advantages and disadvantages, its those things that I want to find out from current users of said systems if they affect the use of them or not. The ideal contributor to this thread would be those that have knowledge of more than one of these systems. Anyhow, I'm starting to babble now! :

Questions I would like to ask regarding my choices are:

When using an RO system, is it necessary to have a softener before the RO in a hard water area, because Tucker say it is, and Essentially Pure say theres no point  ? (my TDS is 250)

Has anyone ever had an issue with the RO unit fitted in the van, as Tucker (yes, again : ) say it is an issue?

I also have a question regarding poles, as i like Tuckers for all the fitting a different brushes they do, but I found on the demo that the pole was quite weighty. Ionics multipole is probably a must, for majority of domestic work. But, I also like the look of the powerpole, again the number of fittings an adapters is a bonus, but I have no real experience or knowledge of these. Recommendations would be appreciated.... 

Now a brief one regarding my new van, I would like to go for a scudo I think, definitely no larger anyway. But I have also been looking at a new berlingo in a higher payload spec. Does anyone have experience of these vehicles, and therefore any suggestions or problems to note. Even recommendations of other vehicles of similar sizes would be welcome.

I hope that the responses to this thread may be able to help others in the future with their decisions. I look forward to hearing your responses and I thank you in advance for all your help. Sorry it's been so long winded!

Simon

[Paul Coleman]

Hello guys and girls,

I am currently in the process of deciding which way to go over to wfp. The only definite decision I have made is that I will be buying a new van, and a van mount.

When I went to windex I was motivated to push my business on, a decided to take the plunge into the wfp market, probably not the best time, considering current water situation. Nevertheless, I will perservere. I have a reasonably small customer base at present, but I am feeling that to introduce it now would be better, as I can then hopefully smooth out any possible teething problems before I can get behind in work.

I am going to get around a 350 ltr tank, but am having trouble decided on whose system to go for. I saw an Ionics demo on Mon, and had a Tucker demo on Weds. I have also been looking a two other smaller manufacturers, Streampole, and Essentially Pure. Each of these system has its advantages and disadvantages, its those things that I want to find out from current users of said systems if they affect the use of them or not. The ideal contributor to this thread would be those that have knowledge of more than one of these systems. Anyhow, I'm starting to babble now! :

Questions I would like to ask regarding my choices are:

When using an RO system, is it necessary to have a softener before the RO in a hard water area, because Tucker say it is, and Essentially Pure say theres no point  ? (my TDS is 250)

Has anyone ever had an issue with the RO unit fitted in the van, as Tucker (yes, again : ) say it is an issue?

I also have a question regarding poles, as i like Tuckers for all the fitting a different brushes they do, but I found on the demo that the pole was quite weighty. Ionics multipole is probably a must, for majority of domestic work. But, I also like the look of the powerpole, again the number of fittings an adapters is a bonus, but I have no real experience or knowledge of these. Recommendations would be appreciated.... 

Now a brief one regarding my new van, I would like to go for a scudo I think, definitely no larger anyway. But I have also been looking at a new berlingo in a higher payload spec. Does anyone have experience of these vehicles, and therefore any suggestions or problems to note. Even recommendations of other vehicles of similar sizes would be welcome.

I hope that the responses to this thread may be able to help others in the future with their decisions. I look forward to hearing your responses and I thank you in advance for all your help. Sorry it's been so long winded!

Simon

If you are new to WFP, aftersales service will probably be very important.  My own findings steered me towards Omnipole and I've never regretted that choice.

Re softener before RO:  I've no idea.

If you have an RO fitted in the van and it is your only RO unit, there could be an issue with tying the van up while you fill the tank.  It depends on your circumstances really.  If you can fill up at, or very close to, home and you won't need to use the van then it's probably not a problem.  I have a static tank and RO in a small unit and I have an RO in the van as well.  This gives me more choices (and a thinner wallet ).

As for poles, I use one by Omnipole.  I've not really tried any others so can't comment on them.

Regarding which van,  I happen to have a Renault Trafic 2.9 tonner myself.  No particular reason, it's just the way it happened.  When I next change my van, I will probably go for something newish and Japanese.  All I would say really is that whatever van you buy, allow about 450kg over and above the weight of the water as a minimum gross payload .  Even then, take care that you don't have a passenger, a full diesel tank, and a full water tank all at the same time.

[Andrew McCann]

Hiya Simon.

OK lets look at this another way.  Are you anticipating needing more than the 350ltrs per day for the forseeable future?

Andrew

[simbag]

Thanks Shiner,

What size powerpole do you have? Do you know what it weight is?

You saying about payload, without knowing it I've done that, as the systems I've noted, have been quoted at around 500kg, and the scudo/dispatch/partner have a 915kg payload, so that would be about right with that.

[simbag]

OK lets look at this another way.  Are you anticipating needing more than the 350ltrs per day for the forseeable future?

Not for the foreseeable, no. Why?

[stephensll5]

We have a ionics system and we have had no problems. the after sale is great. we have a 35ft ionic pole, 2 x 18ft and a 4 ft pole. a bit lighter than tucker but i have heard and seen myself tucker pole's last longer. with a tds reading of 250 you would be much better of not going with tucker. there systems seem cheaper but you will get through alot of resin. i would say about at least £5 a day so if you work 5 days a week it will cost you over a £1000 a year to run with resin alone. we've had are system for a year and probably cost us £60 to run.

[simbag]

with a tds reading of 250 you would be much better of not going with tucker. there systems seem cheaper but you will get through alot of resin.

Yes, that is something that came to mind. If I was to go with them, I would more than likely setup a stataic RO unit. The one in their cat. is priced at £3645!! But, I was told by the demo guy, that this was designed to produce something like 3000 ltrs a day (little too much for my requirements!), but apparently they do a smaller unit. Am currently waiting for the price on that one. There's nothing to stop me trying to setup  a DIY RO unit I suppose.

[Paul Coleman]

Thanks Shiner,

What size powerpole do you have? Do you know what it weight is?

You saying about payload, without knowing it I've done that, as the systems I've noted, have been quoted at around 500kg, and the scudo/dispatch/partner have a 915kg payload, so that would be about right with that.

Regarding the size of my poles:  I started off with an 18 ft powerpole but discovered that I sometimes needed 24 ft for awkward to access windows.  Therefore, I got the guys to put an extra 6 ft section on for me and I use the 24 footer as my normal pole.  I also have a 36 footer for particular jobs.  I've never actually weighed the poles but I feel OK with the 24 footer as the standard.  Lightest isn't necessarily the best anyway as there are other considerations such as rigidity.  The pole I use stays rigid.  I also have a couple of poles for ground floor work.  I have an Ionics 2 x 2ft and an Omnipole 2 x 3ft.  I started with the Ionics one but found I needed a bit of extra reach for some jobs I acquired afterwards, so bought the longer one.
A lot of this stuff is about personal taste though and what one person feels fine with, another person might not.

[simbag]

A lot of this stuff is about personal taste though and what one person feels fine with, another person might not.

Indeed, which one reason why, if poss, I would like as many views as possible on this one. Thanks

[Morph]

No direct answers to your questions at the moment...

Back to basics:  Have you been a trad w/c for long?
If you have, you will know that you didn't learn the job by asking all the options first, surely.
You do a bit of swatting up, which you have done, then you start to build a system and develop a method that works best for you.
There are so many options and variations.
It is more costly than trad w/c, but the steps are the same..
You ask yourself what are you trying to achieve?
What is YOUR preference?
You have to narrow down your options a bit, otherwise you WILL get sold something you don't really want/need

eg.  With trad w/c: If you were to say, "I'm thinking of buying a new ladder, bucket, applicator and squeegee, Which should I go for?
You will get 50 different answers, probably confusing you more.
So you go and buy a domestic £60 ladder from DIY store, it's not long before you realise you don't like the H stiles and square rungs, so you go for D rungs and box section stiles and heavier duty, costing you £100.  You don't mind because you have to learn by experience.

My point is, don't be SOLD something, choose to BUY it instead.
You will make mistakes, but you will learn quickly what you personally like best.  It really is much to do with personal preference.  Some say buy the biggest R/O you can afford, others say buy the smallest you need.
Just a few general thoughts to get on with.

[callum macleod]

I would give serious consideration to what pole you buy i bought at first a glass fibre pole though it only lasted 10mths so then i went on the hunt for a pole that would last ! i've recently bought a 24ft powerpole which is 6x4ft sections which i find covers all aspects of use i still have a small pole though i now never use it also i considered buying the standard 6ft section 24ft pole i went for the shorter as if in future i buy a shorter van it will fit inside no problem saves leaving a expensive pole on the roof!!

[Ian Rochester]

Simon,

Many people on here who have wanted to transfer to WFP have pondered the same questions as you?!?!?!

There is no simple answer, personnally we went for the Stream van mounted system and it does the job very well, the fitting was excellent and the aftersales has been first class.  Plus they are reasonably accessible for us up here and less costly than some of the other manufacturers.  Filling takes about 3-4 hours of an evening and the 400ltrs lasts us all day.

We use a variety of poles from a Brodex 60' down to a home hashed 4' ground floor pole.  

If you are doing mainly domestic then an 18' or 24' will suffice, weight and rigidity are not really an issue at this height, again we have fibreglass and aluminium 18' poles that both do the job well.  Do make sure that you are supplied with a deep gooseneck or long reach shank for your brush head, otherwise you may well wear down your pole on the underside as it rubs on the sills (learnt from experience!!)

I would suggest that you look at a larger payload van, we run a Fiat Ducato 2.0JTD with an 1100kg payload and a 400 ltr tank fitted and when it is fully loaded including ladders etc it is creeping close to 900kg.

We have the same TDS levels as you and don't use any softners, the tank gets filled everynight and the reading out the RO is still never higher than 007, same resin in now for 6 months, with a 000 reading everyday

[simbag]

Cheers, you all helping alot.

Pj, I fully appreciate what you arae saying, as it is too easy to be sucked in by sales talk from those giving you a demo, or giving you a pitch over the phone. You have to take everything they say with a pinch of salt, coz at the end of the day they are trying to make money. I'm not saying they would try to do me over, but I just need to be decisive about what I want.

Roy, how long do you anticipate the life of your Ro unit, before needing replacing? One of the things Tucker was trying to say, was the need for a softener due to limescale build up in the RO. Isn't that down to maintenence a little?

Thanks again,

Simon

[steve k]

I started out with a van based RO system with a vessel of water softening resin as the first filter.
Once you have water softening resin in place you do not need to replace it.
It goes before ALL other filters in the same type of cylinder as DI resin...it becomes the first filter.
Its job is to remove calcium and magnesium particles from hard water.
If it is left to the RO to remove these elements, the RO will become clogged and unusable much quicker.
The water softening resin is flushed clean of the magnesium and calcium about every 400 litres of water made.
This is done by flushing a salt water solution through the resin container for about 15 minutes with the solution going to waste.
It is designed to prolong the life of a RO membrane in a hard water area.

I have one on my system and I only changed the DI resin in March after 10 months use.
My RO produces water at 004TDS and after DI it is 000TDS.

2 months ago, I was fed up with the van being off the road every night while the tank was filled up (about 4 hours) so I removed the RO/filter system out of the van and installed it in my shed connected to 2 x water butts. The water is now made while I am out working and simply transferred into my van tank via a submesrible pump and delivery hose as and when required. Filling the tank takes 10 minutes from parking the van to driving away.
What I discovered while doing this is how ridiculously simple the whole set up is. If you get a tank correctly installed by a local mechanic/engineer, you only need to purchase and install a pump with switch, a battery and a hose reel. The RO is installed in a shed or similar by hanging the filter cartridges on the wall with a couple of screws and brackets with standard hose and hose fittings linked to a tank. Inside the tank is a submersible pump with the electric lead going back into shed. From the submersible pump is a length of delivery hose. When required, open the lid on the van tank, insert the submersible pump hose, plug into electric socket and watch as the pure water in your water butts is quickly drained into your van. Once van is full, unlug pump and restore your delivery hose ABOVE the water butts to prevent siphoning. Drive off and go to work.
You will save a fortune doing it DIY.

[gary evans]

Simbag

We use 3 of the above the systems they all have there merits & are exceptional to work with, each system is better  in some ways.

Be careful with vans scudo are good but 1.9s are only 825 kilo
& 2.0jtd,s 900 kilo capacity

Go for static system, yuo,ll save money in long run. Alot of guys here use diy systems to produce its personal preferrence & budget.

The best is to put a thread out to work with & see systems at work with windowcleaners. I,ve done it before just find somebody reasonabley local ie 30 - 60 miles then everyones happy.

I,ve not looked back since changing.

Gary

[Morph]

I was advised by a few suppliers to go for a water softener.
My TDS fluctuates 350 - 375.  But, they are expensive and, as one helpful adviser told me, you can always add it on later when you feel you can afford it if need be.  R/O will work fine for some time without it, it is just one of those things they advise.
I haven't bought one yet, 6 months use from R/O & Di TDS in = 350, TDS out = still 000.  Haven't changed a thing yet, maybe look at pre filters soon. 
Water softeners ....
I didn't bother because it is almost the same price to fit a water softener as it is to replace my whole R/O membrane and pre filter system.

[macc]

hi simon. ive a vw trnsporter with a Tucker van mount 650 ltr tank. im in the middle of sorting out an ro or a 40 40. my tds is 200 at the tap,

if i knew now what i did 6 months ago i would have gone for a PRO 7. i do like my poles & brushes from tucker so when i get a pro 7 i will stick with them.

my advice would be to get a tank that holds 450-500 ltrs. you dont have to fill her up but its always best to have the option as on a big day you will need more.

another tip wouldbeto get the AUTO BRUSH from peter, you will save about 20% water time & money.

omnipole do good lease terms so have a look at the PRO 7, theres no waste with that. as your tds is 250, DI only is a no no.

my ro is going in a shed cause as others have said i dont want my van out of action plus the water will be ready when i need it & not waiting.

good luck mate. macc. 

[Paul Coleman]

omnipole do good lease terms so have a look at the PRO 7, theres no waste with that. as your tds is 250, DI only is a no no.

Macc.  I don't think the "pro 7" is an Omnipole product.  It's by Ionics isn't it?

[Andrew McCann]

Just my thoughts on this one.

A static is the best option if you can carry enough water without having to top up during the day. 1000ltr 2nd hand IBC is just the thing for water storage. Which RO?  A 300 gpd RO-MAN type unit would do enough water and then some. or a 40in membrane unit from Gapswater would produce plenty with room for expansion.

Tank in the van... 350 ltrs.. say around £130-150 for a safe baffled one and buy a metal strap fitting kit and get it fitted by garage/engineering co... say around £250 to £300. Pump and varistream so easy to fit its silly. Cost around £175 for them both. Large battery say £60 ish for a good deep cycle one. So.. thats the water production and carrying taken care of. Its all pretty basic really and not hard to scource or install and would save a lot of money.  Poles... this is where the individual needs and choices come into play. Personally for domestic I use an 18ft Universal fibreglass all day long with no problems at all. We use 3 of these and have had them around a year and they are still going strong. Its when you get higher that weight etc really come into play. With the money you can save n the static..tank etc you can have lots of choice.

Andrew

[macc]

SHINER. my humble appoligies, ur right. it was early, the brain cell was not plugged in. opps.

macc

[simbag]

Thanks again to you all, my knowledge is growing and growing!

Andrew, thanks for your tips for a DIY approach, I appreciate the money that can be saved by going this direction, but I am not confident in being able to build my own system and deal with possible problems. The obvious advantage of a manufactured system is the after sales service.

I could, and most probably will follow steve k's approach regarding the RO unit, and setup a static at a later date.

I started out with a van based RO system with a vessel of water softening resin as the first filter.
Once you have water softening resin in place you do not need to replace it.
It goes before ALL other filters in the same type of cylinder as DI resin...it becomes the first filter.
Its job is to remove calcium and magnesium particles from hard water.
If it is left to the RO to remove these elements, the RO will become clogged and unusable much quicker.
The water softening resin is flushed clean of the magnesium and calcium about every 400 litres of water made.
This is done by flushing a salt water solution through the resin container for about 15 minutes with the solution going to waste.
It is designed to prolong the life of a RO membrane in a hard water area.

Steve can you tell me what RO unit you use, as different manufacturers (and users) have different opinions on the addition of a softener.

Simon

[steve k]

a 40" one. Of course, you do not need a water softener before the RO but where is the calcium and magnesium going to end up?? ...clogging the pores of the RO membrane shortening it`s working longevity considerably.
If you remove these elements from the water passing through the RO membrane, it will last  MUCH longer.  Put a resin cylinder full of softening resin before the RO and that is it. Every couple of days, flush a solution of salt water through the cylinder to a drain.
Once you get to know how the system works, you will realise its simplicity and you will also realise the mark up on a manufactured system.
Every part of a manufactured system can be purchased individually and extremely cheaply. Putting it together is embarrassingly easy and any questions about problems can be addressed by several well informed members of this forum.
Then again, I thought it was rocket science when I bought mine...so I know where you are coming from