[John Mart]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

Average across the board is £12.

It's never 50k though.

200 a day is 1000 a week

1000 X 47 = 47k (5 weeks holiday per employee)

That's 47 k each MAX

Don't tell me there won't be sick days, rain delays, skippers and Messer's not to mention non payers.

A more realistic figure per van is 40 k imo

Why would my average be higher than £12 ? I'm j West Yorkshire, I'm competing against guys who charge £5-£10 on average.

My average is very much at the high end. I only get about 25% of quotes handed out.

If I raised prices much more that % would lower meaning it would take me many more years and much more ££ in marketing to grow .

That's why I want to stay small, price as high as poss ( I would raise prices) to the vat limit then continue to refine work.

We never miss a day with weather. Very rare for sickness. If you start from the premise you’ll lose 12 weeks of the year, you’re doomed before you start and employing isn’t for you.

Ok well then your round is different to mine then as I can't guarantee to clean every customer every week of the year with a hitch. I might not have been doing this all that long but I've been doing it long enough to know the reality.

If you saw my other thread you will see I've lost £200 in turnover just today.

Did the beast from the east not come to your part of the UK?

Get real mate, there no point making financial forcasts based on ideal scenarios.

Ok, you caught me in a lie there. We lost one day through the snow, but in three years of employing that is the only day. £200 in turnover? Piffle! I lost 4 jobs the day before yesterday! £600 in a year. That’s the other thing about domestic though, it’s non stop marketing so they will have been replaced within a day or two.

I base all my forecasts on a van working 46 weeks as historically that’s actually less than what happens as I will usually cover some of the holidays.

I realise the weather can be a bit less forgiving in the north but as long as it is safe to do so, you should be working every day if you want to employ.

I lost 4 days with the snow, and i mean lost, it wasnt workable.
we have also had a dozen days of torrential rain this year, that isnt workable imo when its bouncing off the sills, dripping off the gutters and blowing horizontal.

I had a week off early this year due to illnesss, flu or something, coulnt get out of bed. there was no way i was going to work like that or indeed could i expect an employee to.

Like i said 47k per van max, no one can forsee what will happen but my figures were only to give a rough estimate of the sums not an exact figure, 40k is erring on the low side but id rather that than get over excited and base it on 47k which would never happen.  The numbers were just a rough idea just to show my point really that i didnt view it as worthwhile, not that it coulndnt be done.

Fair enough, but if my numbers based on actual experience are correct and yours are wrong your £50k profit could easily be £100k. It doesn’t sound as though you’ve been going too long and it’s fine to stay as you are, but if you decide that, base it on reality rather than some Eyore  mindset.

[Lee Pryor]

I like this thread 😃

How was Rixos? Bet its a shock to the system coming back here.

[Go]

Staff get ill, kit fails, vans need servicing, weather stops play( no way can work in heavy snow or -4)
also some jobs take longer.
New work comes in too, putting you behind.

[Lee Pryor]

Today is our first full day. Currently pool side in 30 degrees while Kirsty and Caroline are running my office back home. Fitting for this thread I think as a bigger business is not just about more money, I almost don’t need to work now and being in Dubai right now does not effect the business at all, I can sit here still earning the same money.

Interesting reading the figures people are putting up, some opinions are way off I think.

[dazmond]

theres still guys near me that employ "cash in hand" and pay their workers £35 a day(on ladders too)all cheap domestic work.thats how they make it pay..... some of them have been doing this for many years......

i plan my work to aim for working 46 weeks of the year 4 or 5 days a week.that leaves 2 weeks for xmas,2 weeks for holidays and 2 weeks for sickness,bad weather,DIY time off etc...

today ive only got 4 jobs to do (£210).ill work 10am-230pm(at the latest).....so 4 hours actual work....

im virtually part time now and see window cleaning as a very good part time job.....nothing more...nothing less.....

[NWH]

Why on earth do people keep putting the quote up with their name which is a sheet of A4 in length.

[Tom-01]

We lost a week due to the snow and ice in March.

The guy who works for me was ill for a week too.

We're still up on this time last year with a few of the yearly big jobs to get done.

Off to Dubai in two weeks and work will still continue. Might bump in to Lee Pryor then!

Then I have a shoulder operation and won't be able to physically work for at least 6 months, so then will be the time to refine more and get it so it's not reliant on me working physically, although I do enjoy it so will do a couple of days a week I reckon. Oh and a baby due in September!

Employees bring hassle, extra vans brings all sorts of expense. You can't just replicate one van on the road costs for multi vans, all sorts of things come in to play.

[Lee Pryor]

We lost a week due to the snow and ice in March.

The guy who works for me was ill for a week too.

We're still up on this time last year with a few of the yearly big jobs to get done.

Off to Dubai in two weeks and work will still continue. Might bump in to Lee Pryor then!

Then I have a shoulder operation and won't be able to physically work for at least 6 months, so then will be the time to refine more and get it so it's not reliant on me working physically, although I do enjoy it so will do a couple of days a week I reckon. Oh and a baby due in September!

Employees bring hassle, extra vans brings all sorts of expense. You can't just replicate one van on the road costs for multi vans, all sorts of things come in to play.

Last sentence is very true.

[Marc Stock]

Im looking forward to being in the same position as you two in the next couple of years.

[John Mart]

I must be doing something wrong then because other than one member of staff I sacked for time off, mine don't get ill, we don't lose days through the weather and my vans seem to cost about the same as each other. Each van operates a minimum of 46 weeks a year.

[Marc Stock]

John.

It would be nice if i could have a chat with you, if you have any time spare. info@stockclean.co.uk

[Tom-01]

I must be doing something wrong then because other than one member of staff I sacked for time off, mine don't get ill, we don't lose days through the weather and my vans seem to cost about the same as each other. Each van operates a minimum of 46 weeks a year.

Or lots of things right?!

He's never ill tbh, but this one was a bit of a scare and he was two days in hospital having tests.

Weather never normally stops us, it's just the week we had snow and -6 we had all gutter jobs booked so obviously a no.

[John Mart]

I must be doing something wrong then because other than one member of staff I sacked for time off, mine don't get ill, we don't lose days through the weather and my vans seem to cost about the same as each other. Each van operates a minimum of 46 weeks a year.

Or lots of things right?!

He's never ill tbh, but this one was a bit of a scare and he was two days in hospital having tests.

Weather never normally stops us, it's just the week we had snow and -6 we had all gutter jobs booked so obviously a no.

Ah, well therein lies the danger of not focusing on Window cleaning. We do offer gutter clearing but only for windows customers and only when we’re there to clean the windows. My only interest is gaining regular jobs and so come rain or shine we’re out every day (except one day in 3 years with the snow).

[Tom-01]

I must be doing something wrong then because other than one member of staff I sacked for time off, mine don't get ill, we don't lose days through the weather and my vans seem to cost about the same as each other. Each van operates a minimum of 46 weeks a year.

Or lots of things right?!

He's never ill tbh, but this one was a bit of a scare and he was two days in hospital having tests.

Weather never normally stops us, it's just the week we had snow and -6 we had all gutter jobs booked so obviously a no.

Ah, well therein lies the danger of not focusing on Window cleaning. We do offer gutter clearing but only for windows customers and only when we’re there to clean the windows. My only interest is gaining regular jobs and so come rain or shine we’re out every day (except one day in 3 years with the snow).

I see what you're saying. The focus is window cleaning and everyday is booked with windows. The way it's set up we get them all done but because there's two of us and two vans it means we can do the gutters. The gutters we do are too good moneywise not to do. Yesterday my guy did a job which was nearly double a day's window cleaning work and finished at 2:30pm, and I did an above average day windows so it's well worth it.

It gives me the freedom to pick and choose what I do without getting stressed as the big jobs are great for cash flow.

[Simon Trapani]

Why on earth do people keep putting the quote up with their name which is a sheet of A4 in length.

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

Average across the board is £12.

It's never 50k though.

200 a day is 1000 a week

1000 X 47 = 47k (5 weeks holiday per employee)

That's 47 k each MAX

Don't tell me there won't be sick days, rain delays, skippers and Messer's not to mention non payers.

A more realistic figure per van is 40 k imo

Why would my average be higher than £12 ? I'm j West Yorkshire, I'm competing against guys who charge £5-£10 on average.

My average is very much at the high end. I only get about 25% of quotes handed out.

If I raised prices much more that % would lower meaning it would take me many more years and much more ££ in marketing to grow .

That's why I want to stay small, price as high as poss ( I would raise prices) to the vat limit then continue to refine work.

We never miss a day with weather. Very rare for sickness. If you start from the premise you’ll lose 12 weeks of the year, you’re doomed before you start and employing isn’t for you.

Ok well then your round is different to mine then as I can't guarantee to clean every customer every week of the year with a hitch. I might not have been doing this all that long but I've been doing it long enough to know the reality.

If you saw my other thread you will see I've lost £200 in turnover just today.

Did the beast from the east not come to your part of the UK?

Get real mate, there no point making financial forcasts based on ideal scenarios.

Ok, you caught me in a lie there. We lost one day through the snow, but in three years of employing that is the only day. £200 in turnover? Piffle! I lost 4 jobs the day before yesterday! £600 in a year. That’s the other thing about domestic though, it’s non stop marketing so they will have been replaced within a day or two.

I base all my forecasts on a van working 46 weeks as historically that’s actually less than what happens as I will usually cover some of the holidays.

I realise the weather can be a bit less forgiving in the north but as long as it is safe to do so, you should be working every day if you want to employ.

I lost 4 days with the snow, and i mean lost, it wasnt workable.
we have also had a dozen days of torrential rain this year, that isnt workable imo when its bouncing off the sills, dripping off the gutters and blowing horizontal.

I had a week off early this year due to illnesss, flu or something, coulnt get out of bed. there was no way i was going to work like that or indeed could i expect an employee to.

Like i said 47k per van max, no one can forsee what will happen but my figures were only to give a rough estimate of the sums not an exact figure, 40k is erring on the low side but id rather that than get over excited and base it on 47k which would never happen.  The numbers were just a rough idea just to show my point really that i didnt view it as worthwhile, not that it coulndnt be done.

Fair enough, but if my numbers based on actual experience are correct and yours are wrong your £50k profit could easily be £100k. It doesn’t sound as though you’ve been going too long and it’s fine to stay as you are, but if you decide that, base it on reality rather than some Eyore  mindset.

What this one???

[John Mart]

Why on earth do people keep putting the quote up with their name which is a sheet of A4 in length.

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

Average across the board is £12.

It's never 50k though.

200 a day is 1000 a week

1000 X 47 = 47k (5 weeks holiday per employee)

That's 47 k each MAX

Don't tell me there won't be sick days, rain delays, skippers and Messer's not to mention non payers.

A more realistic figure per van is 40 k imo

Why would my average be higher than £12 ? I'm j West Yorkshire, I'm competing against guys who charge £5-£10 on average.

My average is very much at the high end. I only get about 25% of quotes handed out.

If I raised prices much more that % would lower meaning it would take me many more years and much more ££ in marketing to grow .

That's why I want to stay small, price as high as poss ( I would raise prices) to the vat limit then continue to refine work.

We never miss a day with weather. Very rare for sickness. If you start from the premise you’ll lose 12 weeks of the year, you’re doomed before you start and employing isn’t for you.

Ok well then your round is different to mine then as I can't guarantee to clean every customer every week of the year with a hitch. I might not have been doing this all that long but I've been doing it long enough to know the reality.

If you saw my other thread you will see I've lost £200 in turnover just today.

Did the beast from the east not come to your part of the UK?

Get real mate, there no point making financial forcasts based on ideal scenarios.

Ok, you caught me in a lie there. We lost one day through the snow, but in three years of employing that is the only day. £200 in turnover? Piffle! I lost 4 jobs the day before yesterday! £600 in a year. That’s the other thing about domestic though, it’s non stop marketing so they will have been replaced within a day or two.

I base all my forecasts on a van working 46 weeks as historically that’s actually less than what happens as I will usually cover some of the holidays.

I realise the weather can be a bit less forgiving in the north but as long as it is safe to do so, you should be working every day if you want to employ.

I lost 4 days with the snow, and i mean lost, it wasnt workable.
we have also had a dozen days of torrential rain this year, that isnt workable imo when its bouncing off the sills, dripping off the gutters and blowing horizontal.

I had a week off early this year due to illnesss, flu or something, coulnt get out of bed. there was no way i was going to work like that or indeed could i expect an employee to.

Like i said 47k per van max, no one can forsee what will happen but my figures were only to give a rough estimate of the sums not an exact figure, 40k is erring on the low side but id rather that than get over excited and base it on 47k which would never happen.  The numbers were just a rough idea just to show my point really that i didnt view it as worthwhile, not that it coulndnt be done.

Fair enough, but if my numbers based on actual experience are correct and yours are wrong your £50k profit could easily be £100k. It doesn’t sound as though you’ve been going too long and it’s fine to stay as you are, but if you decide that, base it on reality rather than some Eyore  mindset.

What this one???

I think so.

[John Mart]

I must be doing something wrong then because other than one member of staff I sacked for time off, mine don't get ill, we don't lose days through the weather and my vans seem to cost about the same as each other. Each van operates a minimum of 46 weeks a year.

Or lots of things right?!

He's never ill tbh, but this one was a bit of a scare and he was two days in hospital having tests.

Weather never normally stops us, it's just the week we had snow and -6 we had all gutter jobs booked so obviously a no.

Ah, well therein lies the danger of not focusing on Window cleaning. We do offer gutter clearing but only for windows customers and only when we’re there to clean the windows. My only interest is gaining regular jobs and so come rain or shine we’re out every day (except one day in 3 years with the snow).

I see what you're saying. The focus is window cleaning and everyday is booked with windows. The way it's set up we get them all done but because there's two of us and two vans it means we can do the gutters. The gutters we do are too good moneywise not to do. Yesterday my guy did a job which was nearly double a day's window cleaning work and finished at 2:30pm, and I did an above average day windows so it's well worth it.

It gives me the freedom to pick and choose what I do without getting stressed as the big jobs are great for cash flow.

I hate gutter jobs in the main. I send employees to do them and there is always the possibility  that a ladder will be needed and that means delays or not doing them if tricky. I price them without looking as it isn’t worth the wasted time. It’s purely an add on and truth be told I’m not confident around it.

[Tom-01]

I must be doing something wrong then because other than one member of staff I sacked for time off, mine don't get ill, we don't lose days through the weather and my vans seem to cost about the same as each other. Each van operates a minimum of 46 weeks a year.

Or lots of things right?!

He's never ill tbh, but this one was a bit of a scare and he was two days in hospital having tests.

Weather never normally stops us, it's just the week we had snow and -6 we had all gutter jobs booked so obviously a no.

Ah, well therein lies the danger of not focusing on Window cleaning. We do offer gutter clearing but only for windows customers and only when we’re there to clean the windows. My only interest is gaining regular jobs and so come rain or shine we’re out every day (except one day in 3 years with the snow).

I see what you're saying. The focus is window cleaning and everyday is booked with windows. The way it's set up we get them all done but because there's two of us and two vans it means we can do the gutters. The gutters we do are too good moneywise not to do. Yesterday my guy did a job which was nearly double a day's window cleaning work and finished at 2:30pm, and I did an above average day windows so it's well worth it.

It gives me the freedom to pick and choose what I do without getting stressed as the big jobs are great for cash flow.

I hate gutter jobs in the main. I send employees to do them and there is always the possibility  that a ladder will be needed and that means delays or not doing them if tricky. I price them without looking as it isn’t worth the wasted time. It’s purely an add on and truth be told I’m not confident around it.

Same here, I don't like doing them. I honk because I'm used to being quick on windows I feel like I should be rushing gutters as need to be in the next job by now!

We get lots of blocks of flats and very large houses so it's worth it for us. A few jobs now we just get works orders, no need to even quote. I will go and have a look first just to make sure for access.

The variety seems to work well for us.