[Robert_O]

I personally think that you are bound to get numerous contradictions in technicalities of this business, because it is such an inexact science.

I believe also that even if you follow the manufacturers instructions to the letter and you get a problem, you will have no claim against the chemical or machinery manufacturer, as it is down to the cleaner to determine ultimately the suitability.

The only thing I would assume would make the Manufacturer liable is if they incorrectly labelled a chemical, or it could be proven that the cleaning product was not mixed correctly at the point of manufacture.

I would have thought any thing else is down to us to ensure that the products we use are compatable with what we are about to clean.

Basically the buck stops with the cleaner.

Regards

Robert

[Dynafoam]

Quite right, Robert.

Might this not be the reason for the "For profesional use only" notation on just about every product we use ?

John.

[Derek]

Hi Guys

We are debating chemicals and chemical manufacturers here.....what about the carpet/upholstery manufacturers?

With the best will in the world the cleaning chemical manufacturers are going to 'try' to make a safe product that can be used on 'most' items of soft furnishings.

I would like to bet that cleaning by professional cleaners is way down the list of priorities to the manufacturers of the items we are working on. Any tests that are carried out will be within a very narrow pH range using a generic chemical.

I could give you a long list of chemicals and chemical procedures that for example, that fabrics go through before they end up on a piece of furniture and they are changing all of the time.
Each one of those chemicals could react with one of ours in some way...how to you allow for that?

All you can do is make an on-site evaluation (risk assessment) and work as safe as you can.

Regards
Derek

[Lee]

You guys are again debaiting what u know nothing about, as in, only your own experience and what the chemical manufacturers decide to tell you,you know as well is I do that we all do a great job. The customers are 99.9 % of the time really happy, so why bitch between your selves as to whos got it right and wrong.
This sort of issue is getting so boring, time and time you address it. I know that what I do is what is best for both me and my customers, so quite fraknly who gives a stuff about the "Detalis", clean your carpets well and do whats right for your business!

[Dynafoam]

Lee,

If you find the "details" so boreing it is probably because you have a closed mind.

What I know about my profession is the result of 38 years of exploreing "details".

If I do a good job, it is due to attention to "details".

People like Derek devote a lot of their time instructing the, as yet, uninformed in the acumulated "details" that make up their craft.

If you feel we are so ignorant, that we  ".... are again debaiting what u know nothing about", then spare yourself the boredom of partisipating - or are you here simply to make offensive comments?

John.

[Robert_O]

Hi Lee

I take it that you took the time to read the details of the previous postings.

Please don't take this as me being funny with you but, If so, Why?

The beauty of forums is that it is up to you to read the subject matters you are interested in, and simply leave the ones that are of no interest. Where's is the Problem!

I know I bore the hell out of people at the best of times, but please don't feel obliged to listen or respond, as I assure you I won't take any offence, honestly.

Another way of looking at it is that You have got to have some boring posts so that you can appreciate the  interesting ones more!!!  

Regards

Robert ZZZZZ Olifent

These smileys lighten things up nicely though don't you think!!!

[ALEXDH]

I follow you chaps with interest, i know little so keep my mouth shut most of the time , but i do find all the posts interesting, you never know when something you read becomes relevant when you are stuck for an answer the other day is good example.

I removed a totally soaked through drink stain by lifting the carpet up and using  a bit of nappy on the backing, worked great it would not have occurred to me to do this if one of the more experienced chaps had not said so on the forum.

Its not knowing everything that leads to success on a problem, its knowing where to go for help when you need it.

You old pro's keep on sharing your pearls of wisdom please. I for one appreciate it.

[Derek]

Lee

I am sorry sunshine but in this instance I know exactly what I am talking about.

All the information given here by a lot of knowledgable people in the business is invaluable...none of us know it all and situations are changing all the time...it's called progression.

Your comment 'stuff the details' quite frankly makes me shudder... I would like to share one of my favourite quotes with you...

"There are none as blind as those who don't 'want' to see"

Derek

[Robert_O]

In the first instance when you see a negative, bordering on insulting post I have to admit it make me feel angry.

However, I feel that to respond in an equally negative way only serves to degrade things in to a slanging match which is of no use to anyone, especially myself.

There are a lot of people on this forum, and I am sure  that they can, and will make up there own minds as to people and any poor attitiudes expressed. Unfortunately, at the end of the day they are doing themselves no favours at all.

There you have your surmon for the day.

I recall a common saying given to me quite frequently as a child: "If you can't say anything nice about someone, then don't say anything at all"!!!

Regards

Robert

PS Keep smiling;D

[Dynafoam]

Robert,

Clearly I am not as nice as you!

I have several times bitten my typing finger rather than respond in an argumentative manner but Lees' post started by insulting people for whome I have respect -

"You guys are again debaiting what u know nothing about"

The rest of the post did not improve matters.

I may be a grumpy old g*t at times but I stand by my post.

John.

[Robert_O]

Hi John

I think that you were quite right in what you had to say, whilst being unabusive.

My comments were aimed to explain the reason for my own softly softly response, and in re-reading my post it comes across wrongly that I am having a pop at other peoples responses to lees poor attitude.

I am going to shutup now before I dig myself a deeper hole!!!  

I hope that put's things into better perspective though.

Don't worry, I won't give up the day job and go in to a carreer of diplomacy.  

Regards

Robert

[Lee]

I would like to appologies for last nights comments, I did not mean to insult anyone as I said we Know we all do a good job, I just took a little to far. Im sorry.

[Mark Betts]

Bringing  this thread back on track,

As i think it is titled ULTIMATE MASTER!!!! hahaha

Yesterday i dah a very large office to clean.

Earlier in the thread Steve mentioned he used Ultimate Master to bonnet with. Anyway, i tried it and it worked absolutely great!!!


Better then any of the other "bonnet" chemicals i have tried .......  so.........

come on then , lets start a heated debate as to the pros and cons of bonneting with U/M

Thanks


Mark

[Dynafoam]

Lee,

Live long and prosper

John.

[Dynafoam]

Mark,

Whilst the results may have been impressive, since UM is designed as an enzyme-boosted extraction detergent, I would be concerned about the re-soil characteristics.

With products such as Bonnet Buff and the newer micro-splitters the residue does not contribute to rapid resoil.

Since I have never used an extraction detergent for this method of cleaning I could be wrong in I disagreeumption.

John.

[Dynafoam]

CORRECTION:

My previous post should end "I could be wrong in I disagreeumption"

Where the 'dissagreeumption' came from I know not, but all attempts to edit fail.

John.

[Derek]

Hi Lee

I think your apology will be accepted by all concerened.

Please.. I can only feel that you posted possibly out of frustration... I would be only too happy to explain my reasoning privately at any time

General comment... regarding residues..

I would like to share a true story with you which happened a year or so ago.

I was, at the time, carrying out a series of specialised training courses at a venue which had an adjoining labratory.  During the time I carried out this work I got to know the laboratory staff very well

One morning I was talking to one of the laboratory techinians in the lab and she was checking some of the results of experiments which had been carried out the previous day. Putting her fingers (no gloves) into a powder on on a carpet sample she noticed that her fingers had been bleached.

"That shouldn't have happened", she said... a supposedly inactive residue was in fact active much to her obvious surprise.  

It is this instance and several others that I have come across over the years that makes me extremely wary about residues.

Another instance was at a  manufacturing plant I was being shown around where five well known carpet cleaning/stain removal products were being made.

The plant manager, who was resposible for the blending, told me that two of the products contained oxidising agents.
The chemists, on the other hand, assured me that NO oxidising agents were present in any of their products.

I have seen many times, as some of you will have, (I said that they were well known) that their particular products do have a bleaching effect on certain substrates.

I hope that this explains just where I am coming from and why I am sceptical at times.

Kind regards
Derek

[Mark Betts]

John

I understand where you are coming from with ref to residues etc etc.

But, ok  U/M is an extraction detergent, sprayed onto the carpet at say 100 psi and then extracted off.

So, when you feel the carpet ALL the damp contains U/M and this is left in the carpet to dry.

So , now when i bonneted i misted the U/M onto the carpet direct from my extraction machine. I then bonneted over with a damp bonnet removing the soiling.

My thinking is there is far less chemical left in the carpet after the bonnet has passed than there is when use normally ie. Using Hot Water Extraction so if there was going to be a re soiling/residue problem with U/M then the problem would be greater using it as HWE.

I am going back tomorrow to finish the job off so it will be interesting to see what it looks like.

Thanks

Mark

[Dynafoam]

Hi Mark,

I take your point regarding the amount of product left on the carpet.

I have for some time aimed at minimum residue cleaning, wherever posible useing a plain water rinse even before the availability of Spitfire, Onestep etc., which explains my comment.

John.

[Lee]

Are they claims of the manufactures correct when they say "its self neutralizing " when dry.