NJWindowCleaning

  • Posts: 521
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2011, 10:50:37 pm »
Your not breaking this law as police dont arrest you if they saw you up the ladder. As H&S only advise you to seek a safer way of doing the job and so this myth about ladders been band.
If your a sole trader that works by themselves them using ladders will be ok but if you have more than one worker and your the boss then you are not going to liable for someone else fault if they dont use the equipment properly.  ;D

H & S prosecute, have a look on their website and see hundreds of prosecutions. And cleaning gutters out using a ladder unsecured and without a full written risk assesment is breaking law.period.

idealrob

Before any job taken a full risk assessment should be done and H & S do prosecute was denying that, but the H & S information sheet says use of ladders can be use if no other alternative is at hand, and the maxium height for a portable ladder to be use is 9m and that the person have three points of contact and not to over reach to prevent sideway slip and make safe the ladder by tying to building etc.
And the H & S do say that most ladder accidents are due to misuse or error by the operator.  ;D

idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2011, 11:06:19 pm »
Come on N & j whats your point ?

the bfg

Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2011, 11:08:36 pm »
on  a commercial both would be liable, thats why both get fined same amount fron H & S, to stop companies picking cheapest price and not using companies that dont take H & S seriously.
As for a domestic customer, I, and i dont say this very often are not 100% sure, but the home owner would not be liable imo, and remember the law states that is ladders are used need to be secured and afull written risk assesment done. Dont think many domestic home owners woild know how to do this, or for that matter half the window cleaners either.

idealrob
















would be intereted to know for sure but I feel the domestic owner could also be viable on the grounds he willingly allowed ladders to be used at that height on his property when a much safer way was suggested to him which he refused.         where there's blame there's a claim

idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2011, 11:25:38 pm »
Still up to the window cleaner to do a full written risk assesment, nothing in law foe homeowner. unless you know different from WAHR
What does it sat for homeowners. Nothing

idealrob

bobby p

Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2011, 11:27:29 pm »
if youve got the ladders that size you already know you can and will go up them .

 otherwise what did you buy them for ?   

Mark Farrimond

  • Posts: 119
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2011, 11:43:45 pm »
Is this any use to any of you?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made

From liability point of view, if the window cleaner was to fall and injure himself, as a sole trader he would have no route to make a claim as a public liability policy would not cover his own injuries (as the principal).  If he was an employee on the other hand, he could sue his employer had they asked him to use an unsafe method for a job that wasnt low risk

"Every employer shall ensure that a ladder is used for work at height only if a risk assessment under regulation 3 of the Management Regulations has demonstrated that the use of more suitable work equipment is not justified because of the low risk"


- taken from the site linked above.  It is likely that an employee would have grounds to make an Employers Liability claim.

 The homeowner has a responsibility for the safety of visitors to his house and within the boundaries of his house.  Under his home insurance he will have property owners liability which provides cover in the event of injury, death or damage to individuals or their property on or adjacent to the homeowners property e.g. a tile falls off a roof and hits someone, or lands on their car and damages it.  

The homeowner though isnt liable for the injuries sustained should the window/gutter cleaner fall and injure himself through his own negligence.

Gav - you mentioned that your insurance policy covers you upto 15m.  This is probably true, but that still doesnt mean that you clean upto 15m without following the H&S guidelines for working at such height.

mikecam

Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2011, 11:45:31 pm »
but the H & S information sheet says use of ladders can be use if no other alternative is at hand,

Oh right, if no alternative is at hand? Got it !!

VSP Home Care

  • Posts: 622
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2011, 11:49:26 pm »
Is this any use to any of you?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made

From liability point of view, if the window cleaner was to fall and injure himself, as a sole trader he would have no route to make a claim as a public liability policy would not cover his own injuries (as the principal).  If he was an employee on the other hand, he could sue his employer had they asked him to use an unsafe method for a job that wasnt low risk

"Every employer shall ensure that a ladder is used for work at height only if a risk assessment under regulation 3 of the Management Regulations has demonstrated that the use of more suitable work equipment is not justified because of the low risk"


- taken from the site linked above.  It is likely that an employee would have grounds to make an Employers Liability claim.

 The homeowner has a responsibility for the safety of visitors to his house and within the boundaries of his house.  Under his home insurance he will have property owners liability which provides cover in the event of injury, death or damage to individuals or their property on or adjacent to the homeowners property e.g. a tile falls off a roof and hits someone, or lands on their car and damages it.  

The homeowner though isnt liable for the injuries sustained should the window/gutter cleaner fall and injure himself through his own negligence.

Gav - you mentioned that your insurance policy covers you upto 15m.  This is probably true, but that still doesnt mean that you clean upto 15m without following the H&S guidelines for working at such height.

Thanks Mark, it was you I was thinking of when I mentioned the 15m so I hope I was right.  From our point of view that's way high enough to be cleaning gutters and I can't think of any properties that go to that high apart from flats.

Mark Farrimond

  • Posts: 119
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2011, 11:55:19 pm »
You'd be suprised Gav.  I have insured many a fella abseiling at 100m.

But for domestic properties, you'd be right, 15m will probably do.  If you think an average ceiling in a house in 8-10 ft, thats approx 3 metres tops, so to the top of the upstairs window in a 2 storey house is probably 6-8 metres at most.

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2011, 11:55:51 pm »
thing is...if the window cleaner damages the property or drops a ladder on a car or god for bid a person! would the insurance company pay out if the window cleaner wasn't compliant to the working at height regulations...I THINK NOT...they dont like paying out at the best of time...

Mark Farrimond

  • Posts: 119
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2011, 12:00:23 am »
Poleman, not all insurers are the same you know.  There are ones that do pay claims.  

In answer to your question, the legal liability provided by an insurer to a member of the public wouldn't be prejudiced by the incorrect methods used by the gutter cleaner.  A public liability policy covers the negligence by the insured which leads to injury to a third party or damage to their property for which the insured is legally liable. 

The HSE's guidelines are there to prevent injuries in the workplace and are focussed more towards the protection of employees.
From an employers liability point of view if the injuries were sustained by an employee, the insurer would pay the compensation claim to the employee, but could attempt to recoup their losses from the employer if it was later proven that the employer had blatantly flouted HSE rules.  How successful such an action would be is hard to predict.


Frankybadboy

  • Posts: 9022
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2011, 07:06:01 am »
cant see a problem just get up them ladders,clear out get the money and go  ;) ;D ;D ;D :P :P

idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2011, 07:48:31 am »
cant see a problem just get up them ladders,clear out get the money and go  ;) ;D ;D ;D :P :P

Go where ?

Jakey boy

  • Posts: 869
Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2011, 03:48:11 pm »
The guy is a Dick.I have  gone up 3 levels on a ladder its scurry.Tell him you will rent him your ladder so he can go up .He will shiiiiite himself.

you wimps. I'm up 3 stories all the time, just be careful, pray, and get on with it! There's good money on 3 story houses and it's no different to 2nd floor cleaning, it's all on the mind, fear is the killer, being safe and confident is the best protection, plus you can always get the customer to foot the ladder if they are so desperate to get it done, charge a massive amount of money to make it worth while, and HAPPPY DAYS!

P.s insurance can be 30ft+ so it's fine to go up there, and ladders are safer than they've ever been, we worry to much, it's a load of rubbish this health and saftey crap, just be men and get on with it like the old days.   

H S and Son

Re: 3rd Floor Gutters and Ladders
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2011, 07:06:39 pm »
Thy do say there's one born every minute.

jay kingston

  • Posts: 81
Re: 3rd Floor Gutters and Ladders
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2011, 09:20:32 pm »
Good luck Jakey Boy

Cos your gonna need it!!!!!!

 ;D ;D ;D

mikecam

Re: 3rd floor gutters and ladders
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2011, 09:37:43 pm »
The guy is a Dick.I have  gone up 3 levels on a ladder its scurry.Tell him you will rent him your ladder so he can go up .He will shiiiiite himself.

you wimps. I'm up 3 stories all the time, just be careful, pray, and get on with it! There's good money on 3 story houses and it's no different to 2nd floor cleaning, it's all on the mind, fear is the killer, being safe and confident is the best protection, plus you can always get the customer to foot the ladder if they are so desperate to get it done, charge a massive amount of money to make it worth while, and HAPPPY DAYS!

P.s insurance can be 30ft+ so it's fine to go up there, and ladders are safer than they've ever been, we worry to much, it's a load of rubbish this health and saftey crap, just be men and get on with it like the old days.   

You tell 'em Jakey !!! I'm sure some of them don't want us fellas with nothing between our ears to make a living.

tacky 1

  • Posts: 24
Re: 3rd Floor Gutters and Ladders
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2011, 09:51:55 pm »
must b stuck for a couple of bob .to risk life n limb .hope u r not married n have kids ,becuse its the ones we leave behind ar the ones that suffer .

NJWindowCleaning

  • Posts: 521
Re: 3rd Floor Gutters and Ladders
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2011, 09:58:30 pm »
Yes I would clean Gutters at and above third floor.

And I do keep in contact with the laws just in case a customer might shout there mouth off about the H & S regs, as it wasnt meant to sound that i was preaching but to have a discussion about anything you need to know what your on about.  ;D

So I apologies for any problems that it might of cause anybody in any shape and form.  :)

idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: 3rd Floor Gutters and Ladders
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2011, 11:28:44 pm »
Yes I would clean Gutters at and above third floor.

And I do keep in contact with the laws just in case a customer might shout there mouth off about the H & S regs, as it wasnt meant to sound that i was preaching but to have a discussion about anything you need to know what your on about.  ;D

So I apologies for any problems that it might of cause anybody in any shape and form.  :)


how do you keep in contact with the laws, we would all like to know ?You said laws, so you have to agree its enforsable, come on you say you need to know what you on about. Come on please tell us all you know about these laws, i guess it fits on a postage stamp. please prove us wrong. tell us all ?

idealrob