[Dominic]

Sorry for the tone but I just rang up the HSE and spoke to an inspector to get an interpretation of the regs. I said to her that I've invested in a pole system because I felt it was the right thing to do and basically it seems that ladders are no longer the safest option. Then I said its hard to convince customers to go for a big change (WFP) when there's still people running up and down ladders like I did for ten years. So then I asked what the HSE are doing about everyone who are still using ladders unsafely. She said ladders aren't banned which we all know and at the moment it is not reasonably practicable for everyone to use pole systems because they are too expensive for some window cleaners. Then she said it's down to resources and they did a two week campaign last year and they'll probably do another one next year. But basically there's not much they can do until people fall off. Same old story " don't grit the roads till we have a ten car pile up ".

This will probably please ladder users but it pi**** me right off because I've invested money trying to follow the law and the law is completely ambiguous as usual. I just wish it could be clean cut i.e NO LADDERS

As far as affording a pole system I thought that is why most new businesses get a small loan etc.

Now I know I'm biased because I've switched to poles but I wish all you ladder users would just get with the whole pole thing cos it's safer and you earn a lot more money also you'd make my life a lot easier.

cheers

Dom

[sunshine windows]

Hi dom,

I can understand your frustration at the HSE. I'm sure you won't be disappointed for too long though if you say you'll be going round faster than normal earning more money.

I'd love to change over to the wfp system but am a bit weary of how a lot of my customers would take to it (or not, as may be the case). Especially in this weather when all the water that drips from the system will probably freeze over. Then you get old Doris moaning at you that you're causing a hazard.

How are you finding it with your customers. or are you doing mainly commercial stuff anyway.

sunshine

[stuart webster]

Try camomile tea, it has a calming effect.

[John Conroy]

Just do whats right for you and your customers and it be fine

[*Chris Browne]

What about the ones that heve bought new ladders?


chris

[John Conroy]

They got big surprise coming new regs regaring the use of ladders in weeks

[windows_chepstow]

Don't worry about your customers and using a WFP.

Out of around 350 customers I've lost ONE customer who - after I gave her a good grilling - finally admitted that she didn't like her wooden frames getting wet.  She thought that the water might damage them.

I did point out that when it rains; her frames get wet and there's no difference.

Anyway, before I go drivelling on... don't worry about traditional window cleaners.  There's plenty of places where I clean windows which also have trad users and I haven't lost any accounts.

[Sir Squeaky]

Now I know I'm biased because I've switched to poles but I wish all you ladder users would just get with the whole pole thing cos it's safer and you earn a lot more money also you'd make my life a lot easier.

I'm not ruining my round with inferior kit and paying big money for loads of hassle just please you.

What an offensive post.

Serves you right for jumping on the bandwagon before finding out the facts.

[windolene]

Hi,

One reason I have not gone over to wfp is the environmental aspect..wasting 3 litres of water to get one. that will soon empty the reservoirs.

Kevin.

[neil100]

You stick to your guns Squeaky.

This as been my fifth week wfp, I am still on my first cleans and they are a nightmare. I only have 2 full days left before I start on second cleans. I am impressed with some of the work we have done  the windows look like they have had a make over.

But the most common question every customer as been asking is, Are you enjoying it more. The short reply NO.

I know it takes time to adapt,My son loves wfp but I still prefer traditional

I may be safer but I have had a lot of sleepless nights with phsyical complications that wfp has brought with it.

If someone is happy with Traditional then stay with it and work within the law.Their is a lot more hassle with wfp. Tradtional is so easy without any flack. If your good and fit stay with it.

My attitude may change over the comming months, but you should only change to wfp if thats what you want. dont be forced into it.

Nel.

[windows_chepstow]

I spent around £850 on my WFP kit; probably £200 more than I needed to.

I reckon I earn at least £500 per month more than I was before.  AT LEAST.

I took Monday off to post some flyers, print off some mail shots and chill.

Tuesday I had a nice easy day.  We only worked for one-and-a-half hours.  (We work calander-monthly mostly; and we were up-to-date; so at the end of each month if we're ahead of ourselves we can take time off).

Wednesday and Thursday We both worked; hard.

Today (Friday); I mainly only worked; hard.  (Wor Lass helped me with a pub doing the insides and two houses before abandoning me to get her hair cut-and-a-colour-put-in-it-or-something).

But we've earnt more this week than we would've using ladders had we grafted hard for a whole week. And I only worked really for three days; Wor Lass; two days.

WFP is brilliant.  I earn from 20% to 50% more than I did using ladders, and I use an entry-level system and do 'tops only'; mostly.

When you get onto your fourth and fifth clean you're flying.

I honestly feel sorry for you lot who use ladders.  They're such hard work and very slow too.

[neil100]

Why dont you clean bottoms with wfp Tosh?

Nel.

[windows_chepstow]

Why dont you clean bottoms with wfp Tosh?

Nel.

A backpack only holds around 20 litres of water, so doing tops only cuts down on filling up time.

Also cleaning ground floor with an 18 ft pole is a bit of chore and so is carrying a shorter 4 ft pole along with the 18 ft one; so is swapping them over.  Remember my round is mainly bottom-end residential; terraced houses and semis; and my system is entry-level.

So it's easy to whip down a row of terraced houses; doing all the 'tops' first.  Then when you've done four or five of them, return to the first and start squeegying.  You don't need a bucket of water near you.  The windows are wet which helps and you can fill your bucket-on-a-belt with a bit of water too.  And use outside taps/puddles/etc to wet your T-Bar.

Do the same round the rear.

Not only that, I mostly work with Wor Lass who follows me around cleaning the ground floor; but even when she's off; I still squeegie the bottoms.

I promise you; even if you do 'tops only (mostly; leaded and Georgian excepted)'; it's quicker and easy and does a class job.  I've been using the WFP for around five months now, and I'm still impressed with the speed and standard of job it does.

There's some here who 'slag' the WFP without ever having used one.  I think they're either jealous or frightened.

I can't believe people can be negative about a safer method to clean windows which is quicker and easier.

When I found out about pure-water cleaning and was still on ladders; I wanted to get one.

It has honestly transformed our working regime for the better.

Am I drivelling on again?  Be honest!

[mattstanley]

Not at all Tosh - I just can't believe you use puddles to wet your T-Bar! 

[windows_chepstow]

Not at all Tosh - I just can't believe you use puddles to wet your T-Bar! 

It was a tip I got from this forum.  It works.  Try it.

[mattstanley]

On the theme of the thread - my mate (who works in construction) went on a Working at Height course, run by a very high profile organisation.  He asked the instructor about window cleaning etc etc, and he was honestly told that too many people have over reacted, splashed out on wfp, when this isn't necessary in many cases - remember, this was a very high profile organisation who should know their onions.  Many will disagree with this but, unless the HSE specifically say ladders are a no-no and wfp is the only way, there will always be ladder users.

Basically, as has been said, you've got to do what is right for you.  I have a system similar to Tosh, but only use it for difficult jobs to ensure my safety.  I would love to do all jobs with it but am holding off because I think we're going to run into serious water supply problems in the South East, and we'll be back on ladders anyway.

[mattstanley]

I don't doubt it works, but do the customers see you doing it?  Mine would wonder what I was doing.

I use a small washing up liquid bottle with a quantity of my GG4 mix in it (stashed in my pouch), to save lugging a bucket around the back.

[dish]

They got big surprise coming new regs regaring the use of ladders in weeks

What's the inside information regarding new ladder regs then?

[Franky2020]

The way I see it , it is everyone to their own. if you want to use ladders and feel safe doing it carry on,youre only likely to harm yourself . However if you want potentially more earnings and dont feel safe up a ladder go for wfp. Whats the problem?  

[supernova77]

Oh dear - Another argument about WFP v Trad  

At the end of the day once you are used to WFP it is easier, quicker and safer than using ladders - and that's a fact!

Today for example I cleaned a £35 account, it used to take me about 1 hour 10 mins to clean trad, I did the whole house (tops and bottoms) with WFP and it took me 40 mins!

The thing is... In about 5 years time more window cleaners than not will be using WFP, and wondering how they ever managed with the trad method. And then another 10 years after that neally everyone will be using a completely different method and wonder how they ever managed with WFP!  

[mattstanley]

The only info I can get is that the HSE are updating their safe working practice guidelines for window cleaners in line with the TWAHD regs of last April - as far as I'm aware, we're not getting new regs, but I may be wrong.

[Dominic]

Cheers for response.

Don't get me wrong I definitely know WFP is better all round in my opinion. And Squeeky don't think I didn't do my research. I also loved the ladders till HSE threw a spanner in the works.

I think the main thing that annoys me is that there are still trads out their completely ignoring what's going on. I've spent the cash yet matey is getting a free ride and being able to compete with me without the overheads.

Surely every Trad doesn't do a risk assessment on every residential house he cleans and then take the correct steps to ensure safe use of ladders ( if he does then I'll take it all back). I did it for long enough to know that you just fly round as quick as poss with as little expense as poss.

Maybe you'll realise Squeeky if you decide to change over yourself.

Try not to take offense just telling you how it is in my eyes.

I've been round my round about three times now and on the whole every thing is rosy and earning alot more in a lot less time. But I have lost a few and had to convince many so like I said before it would be great if everyone just accepted that this is the law and that's it. Wishfull thinking I suppose.

cheers Dom

[dish]

I was going to add.

I can't see how the HSE can ever ban the use of ladders.  There are just too many jobs that require the use of ladders, commercially and domestically, and there are just no other suitable access options. For short jobs it is not practical to erect scaffolding, use mewps, rig up bolts for rope access etc. etc...

I do appreciate the benefits of wfp's which is why I am looking at getting one myself.

What I don't appreciate is all the window cleaners who have been telling customers that HSE has banned the use of ladders and window cleaners who use ladders are breaking the law...

[windows_chepstow]

Mattstanley quote:

Insert Quote  
I don't doubt it works, but do the customers see you doing it?  Mine would wonder what I was doing

Matt, you're in the 'interested but frightened category' of window cleaner who wants to convert to WFP.

Ignore the regs.  Who cares?  They're not policed anyway; until you have an accident at least.

If you want to dip your toe into the WFP world, get a Shurflo back-pack.  Don't listen to anyone else.  Shurflo back-pack at £250 tops, cheaper from e-bay (£160).

With all the other stuff it should amount to around £600 in total.  Within two months, you'll have paid for your expenditure and from 'clean four', you'll be flying round and each month your purchase will be repeatedly paying for itself.

Just start out doing 'tops only' and use David of St Ives's WFP explanation letter for your customers.  (In the documents to upload section).  I swear I have only lost one customer out of 350(ish) due to WFP, and the one I lost was not due to shoddy work-man-ship.

Not only will you be cleaning faster, but you can work for longer.  Six hours of hard ladder work used to 'knacker' me.  But I can work eight hours, still tired, but not bolloxed! I'm sure you know what I mean.

[simbo]

this has always bothered me, i am just building my own trolly now, but do not plan on using on all my work just the ones that are a little dangerous.I charge good rate now but customers ok as i spend around half hour doing a good job, if i started doing it in 10 mins i think nearly all would get a bit anoyed, so just the scary stuff for me and will go out of my way to target that sort of work and see how things go.
I really enjoy using ladders most of the time but wfp does have a place i am sure
as somebody else said a lot of water gets wasted just producing the water, still good though as can target 3 4 storey work soon which i do not touch at the mo
cheers all simb0

[Moderator David@stives]

This is what i posted a few days ago,how you interperate is up to you also read this link

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=15945.0

The Work at Height Regulations (WAHR), which came into effect in April (2005), incorporate four principles that employers have to follow.

They must try to avoid the risk occurring in the first place by finding different ways of working, whenever possible.

If working at height is unavoidable, measures must be taken to prevent falls taking place and, if they do occur, to reduce the consequences.

The fourth principle requires employers to prefer collective protection, such as guard-rails, rather than personal protection, such as safety harnesses.

When staff have to work above the ground, their employers have to make sure the work is planned, supervised and carried out in a safe manner.

[windows_chepstow]

David,

Citing 'The Law', is all well and good, but who really cares?  It's not being policed as far as I know.  So unless you have an accident, you've not got much to worry about.

I doubt there's many here who've honestly converted to WFP because of 'The Law'.

We're converting - in droves - because it's easier, quicker, makes more money, and is safer, which is a by-product for me.

[Moderator David@stives]

Tosh

Just giving valuable information.

I am not citing the law.

Dave   

[rosskesava]

If a risk assessment is done first and a method statement done (nothing over complex is needed), generally, cleaning windows with ladders is perfectly ok.

There is a bit more to it than that and a bit of paper work needed in a folder and an awareness of this and that but .....

I had stopped posting on this but here we are again.

I went to the extent of getting a H & S officer to visit us while working whilst using ladders on a semi. He was completely happy we were acting within the news regs. He did a site survey, spoke to each of us about how we work, gave us some good advice and went away quite happy about how we were working.

I'm in fear of stirring up a can of worms but those who shout loudest about WAHL's are those who have a vested interest in WFP and the words 'banned' and so on get used to great effect.

If anyone who cleans windows using ladders is worried about the regulations, don't go by what I've written here, phone the H & S people or do as I did, contact them via their website. They are suprisingly helpfull .

Cheers

I've added this afterwards - wfp has increased our profits by about 40% and not forgetting it is safer but for some jobs, wfp is either impracticle or slower or to messy.

[dai]

Tosh, your spot on. My customers after 5 months love the WFP. I lost 3 in total and have gained loads of new ones.
Having been going up ladders every day for 12 years, and perfectly happy to do so, I now hate getting them off the van. I can get through the work much faster now.
The speed wasn't there to start with, but as my confidence in the system grew I found the speed just increased.
To be perfectly honest and a little selfish, I don't want to see a mass exodus to WFP. I want to press home the advantage I have over traditional cleaning first.
As to the original post with regards to health and safety, It's what I have been saying from the start and have posted several times on here. If you haven't got WFP there is no safer alternative way of working. The law by definition applies to us all. Dai

[rosskesava]

Hi Dai

The law by definition applies to us all. Dai

Without sounding rude, it's best to find out what the law is first from those who enforce it.

Cheers

[steve k]

Don`t worry about waste water being environmentally UNfriendly...it all goes back into the rainwater drains so is recycled back into our  taps at some point!!

[wightsurf]

Hi all ,i live down south and i got talking to my local school head teacher,she said
that they have been informed that they where not to allow the care taker to clean windows with a ladder anymore!!!!
This made my mind up to invest in this as there is in my view a hole thats about to open in the market ,as companys will not want to take the risk.
After all this country is going the same way as the states ,sue any one for any thing and the companys just won't want to take the chance , even if you can use a ladder the risk is there 
they will go for wfp it's the safe option


Martin

[rosskesava]

as companys will not want to take the risk.

Carry on believing that.

sue any one for any thing

That is exactly how it works.

I'm sorry to sound sarcastic and I don't mean to sound rude but this is the media and the press headline grabbing.

It's actually not like that in reality.

even if you can use a ladder the risk is there they will go for wfp it's the safe option

Sorry, that has not been my experience.

[wightsurf]

It seems you pay for not using wfp by means of the following,
what i said earlyer is something i have came across.After spending a lot of years in the building trade and how that has changed with the use of ladders i do think
that health and safety will become a more of a issue with the use of ladders.



Quote from national asscosiation window cleaners


Can I use ladders at all?

No. Going up a ladder just once puts you at risk of an accident. We know of one window cleaner who had a serious accident the day before his new wfp system arrived.

Are we criticising traditional window cleaners?

Of course not. The facts and the insurance premiums reflect the risks of using ladders.

[windows_chepstow]

Ian Greenwood said (he's the head-working-at-heights-honcho) that 'ladders are not illegal, but window cleaners should consider the alternatives first'.

That means that ladders can be used in some circumstances, under certain restricted conditions.   Ladders should be tied off and be used in conjuction with a ladder stabilisation device.

I once tried arguing that this directive had no real effect on ladder users, with Philip Hanson (editor of PWCA magazine and ex moderator here) and lost on every point.  He backed up his argument by quotes from the regulation. 

It did enhance my understanding of the rules.

Anyway, the working at height directive that Ian Greenwood oversaw states that the principle of the directive is that if a job can be done from the ground, then that's how it should be done.  Full Stop.

At the end of the day, whose going to stop you using ladders?  No-one.  Maybe the odd customer whose HSE savvy may drop you in favour of a WFP user!  Many facility managers don't have a clue regarding the working at heights directive either.

Regardless of all this regulation; go on, dip your toe in the WFP world.  Get a Shurflo back-pack and start off doing 'tops only'.

You don't need to spend £1000.  About £500 or £600 will get you kitted out.  Send me an e-mail - or ask in a post - and I'll tell you how to get kitted out.

Why?

This forums members have helped me no-end in my new business.  I've been window cleaning for three-years now, and I think I've a better business than some window cleaners I know who've been going for twenty years, who're still using ladders.

I'm not on commision from Shurflo!

[dai]

Without sounding rude, it's best to find out what the law is first from those who enforce it.

True; If the people charged with enforcing it, ever get round to applying it. They can't though can they? Nobody, including them seem to have a clear definition of what it is.
Dai

[Filllllll]

I slipped over on wet decking after using my WFP.Is that healthy?Better than the ladder slipping on it ,or on gravel,or treading on slippery pitched roofs of which I have many.
I'm on my second time round with WFP working from box trailer system and freedom trolly for the difficult to access.
Customers  generally have taken well to it;lost just a few but after twenty years up a ladder I do feel alot happier at ground level.
Was quite an investment but have found costs are more than covered by extra work from doing conservatory roofs and extra windows at exta cost previously inaccesible.Also it certainly speeds things up.More time for the familly too!
N.B. Takes a bit of time to develop technique etc. but it does get together in the end.

[gaza]

tosh THE  WFP GURU:HOW MANY YEARS WFPOLING? sorry months
me had qne for 4 yrs,how time has changed,4 yrs ago try and convert peeps to wfp was a nightmare.
 now Ive walked onto 3 brand new building sites/3 story houses charge £38 squid for 12 windows cus the building company wont have people working of ladders on site,from there got 3 out of 3 houses on 1 site thats been released @ £8 for 12 windows,and 1 out of 3 at another site, on another site trad wc =1 house me wfp= 4 with 2 watching and the trad canvassed before me

READ ON SQUEEKY AND THE OTHER LUDITES,and yes I do still use ladders{getting less and less}

wissh I lived near squeeky I would tie him to the end of my pole sso he could have a close look at the results before he commented on wfp.plus bash his head on the brick work a little

squeeky Im not having a dig but you ort to get out more wake up and smell the coffee 



 GAZA

[rosskesava]

Philip Hanson is skilled in these issues. He is skilled in how to present them. He also has business interests into how wfp should be presented.

I am not critisizing the bloke in away way but business is business and his business is wfp.

Just get the facts direct from the H & S direct and go by what they say instead.

Slipping over on wet decking being used as an example as opposed to falling from a ladder is not really valid. What is valid is the fact that you cannot fall from a ladder if the job is being done with wfp.

Somehow now, deaths and injuries from ladder are common place and happen everytime someone goes up a ladder or so it seems.

I have never ever not once disputed the safety of wfp as opposed to using a ladder. Not ever and not once.

My point was that ladders are not banned. They are not illegal or anything else.

Without sounding rude, it's best to find out what the law is first from those who enforce it.

True; If the people charged with enforcing it, ever get round to applying it.

On what basis do you say that? What is the source of your information? How can you back that fact up? Who have you got written statements from? What statistics have you got to support that and who compiled them? Were those facts industry standard surveys? What were the sampling rates and so on?

Also, IF a job can be done from the ground then it should be done so. Again define 'can be done from the ground'? That could mean just getting a hose and spraying water and saying that is the job done. It's a question of defining what is the job to be done and to what standard and what standard the customer expects according to what is the accepted existing standard.

I go back to my original point of ask the H & S. It's simple. It's so straight forwards that I am amazed that more have not done that already and if you are not happy that person knows about the WAHL's, then go further up the H & S ladder untill you get an answer from someone who is an authority.

Apart from that - I'll never ever go up a 3 extention ladder again whether it's legal or not. I'll go up a 2 extention A frame only if I'm happy about it. any doubt and I won't. My ladder days in that sense are over.

Cheers

[pjulk]

I changed over to WFP last year and think its a great way to clean windows.

I use WFP for 90% of my work the other 10% still done by ladders and will be for the forseable future as these are just not pratical to clean with WFP.

About 50% of my work i WFP the whole house.
But just lately i have been think to myself with the cold weather that i clean there windows but i doubt its drying so they would have wet windows all day.

So i have been doing more downstairs by hand just so there not left wet and i dont need to take as much water with me so a bit more room in van.

Once the warmer weathers here again i will go back to WFP everything.

But when i changed over i did this because of the safety aspect, But im not knocking ladder as i still use them and will continue to do so.
But if the health and safety people did enforce the wahd i already have a system in place to use

Paul

[Sir Squeaky]

squeeky Im not having a dig but you ort to get out more wake up and smell the coffee 

Ho ho!

If you want all that extra bother morning and evening, and the problems that are highlighted here 20 times a day....go for it.

I spoke to Ian Giles the other day, and he couldn't honestly say it was definately worth it for the round I have.

Not for me. I've got an easy job, and that's the way it's staying.

Rog.

[brett walker]

I have wfp'd upstairs and downstairs definately quicker and earn more money, i find it better on the bigger houses.

I must be honest it gets on my nerves a bit carrying a lot of water about somtimes life seems a lot easier just to chuck the ladder on and the trad kit, because of all the wfp teething problems.  I would never rule out not using a ladder as i do not think they will ever be banned as its been said before different tools for different jobs.

Brett

[sunshine windows]

   Also cleaning ground floor with an 18 ft pole is a bit of chore and so is carrying a shorter 4 ft pole along with the 18 ft one; so is swapping them over.  Remember my round is mainly bottom-end residential; terraced houses and semis; and my system is entry-level.
     

tosh, please excuse my ignorance, but what is an entry level system. Thinking long and hard about investing in wfp but can't really justify spending out that much as i've only got a small round which is scattered everywhere at the moment. 

[Moderator David@stives]

For those of you who think there are no Health and safety issues with using ladders.

Why is Ian Greenwood doing a seminar at Windex

Titled

"How the window cleaner comply withe the WAHR"

To be held at windex 16th march at 10.30am.

I am interested in my business so it is my business to be there and here it from the horses mouth.

Dave

[John Conroy]

Window cleaners will over the years found out that WFP is good for there business yes the law plays apart but it will be case of they get to hear about it thought a friend or fellow window cleaner, that’s its quicker, saver, faster and will earn them a good or better living for there family, so it might take long for the penny to drop, but the sea change is hear WFP is the future of window cleaning

[John Conroy]

They got big surprise coming new regs regaring the use of ladders in weeks

What's the inside information regarding new ladder regs then?

The only info I can get is that the HSE are updating their safe working practice guidelines for window cleaners in line with the TWAHD regs of last April - as far as I'm aware, we're not getting new regs, but I may be wrong.

They are giving you guidance for window cleaners so that you can comply with the working at height regulations when using ladders, (because of the confusion in the industry, which we can also see from this debate) if you work with in theses guidance you are complying, if you don’t then they can use the working at height regulation to take you to court, don’t say you have not been warned because working at height regulation are law and companies have already be prosecuted under the working at height  regulations.

[mattstanley]

Mattstanley quote:

Insert Quote  
I don't doubt it works, but do the customers see you doing it?  Mine would wonder what I was doing

Matt, you're in the 'interested but frightened category' of window cleaner who wants to convert to WFP.

Ignore the regs.  Who cares?  They're not policed anyway; until you have an accident at least.

If you want to dip your toe into the WFP world, get a Shurflo back-pack.  Don't listen to anyone else.  Shurflo back-pack at £250 tops, cheaper from e-bay (£160).

With all the other stuff it should amount to around £600 in total.  Within two months, you'll have paid for your expenditure and from 'clean four', you'll be flying round and each month your purchase will be repeatedly paying for itself.

Just start out doing 'tops only' and use David of St Ives's WFP explanation letter for your customers.  (In the documents to upload section).  I swear I have only lost one customer out of 350(ish) due to WFP, and the one I lost was not due to shoddy work-man-ship.

Not only will you be cleaning faster, but you can work for longer.  Six hours of hard ladder work used to 'knacker' me.  But I can work eight hours, still tired, but not bolloxed! I'm sure you know what I mean.

Hi Tosh

I meant my customers would wonder what I was doing if I dipped my T-Bar into a puddle - not if I was using wfp.

I have a system based around a backpack - I've discussed this with you many times on here and the DIY site - and I want to use it ultimately to do tops only but I'm holding off at the moment, except where it contributes greatly to my safety, as we are facing water shortages in the South East and I'm pretty sure, unless we get some significant rain, we are going to be stopped from using wfp (in which case it will be back to ladders as wfp won't be practicable in the circumstances - we'll have to adapt as someone said earlier).

Matt.

[macc]

matt. how can they ban us from using wfp if thats how you earn a living. its a human right to earn a living.

not sure about others, im working. 

[mattstanley]

I'm only repeating what was said by a water company last year that if there was a full drought order (ie stand pipes etc) wfp would be banned - think about it, how are you going to make pure water anyway if your only source of water is from stand pipes in the road?  We'll have no choice but to fill a bucket up each day, if we want to earn money.

I'm not being a doom-monger - in Kent, all we hear on the radio and on the TV is that our reserves are the lowest they have ever been.  As I see it, if there is a full drought order, I will have to put my wfp away and use ladders full time again - I won't be breaking the law as wfp will not be a practicable alternative to using ladders in the circumstances.  Either that, or I'll clean downstairs only inside and out or something - I'll adapt to keep some money coming in.

I'm not worrying about it as wfp is not the only way to earn money cleaning windows.

[gaza]

SO IF I GO UP LADDERS and have a fall my mrs can sue the water board ?) because Icarnnt use the safer method due to their incompetance to provide water?
 
 better not tell the mrs{she would be at the bottom shaking them}


   gaza

[Sir Squeaky]

matt. how can they ban us from using wfp if thats how you earn a living. its a human right to earn a living.

not sure about others, im working. 

Well I could say the same about my work with ladders...I'm paying my way.
That's why they won't stop me.

I could see their point about polers though.
You guys use more water than the African rainforests see in a day. It's wrong.

Another thing to put me off it.

[Paul Forster]

Whilst not a window cleaner (I do grounds maint and pressure cleaningand pest control) i use ladders regularly in the course of my grounds maintenace business.

I am fully aware of the WAHL.  Customers will not pay  £300 for a cheery picker to be brought in for say the reduction of a 45' conifer or cutting of a 10' hedge. Instead it is a job for the triple laders tied at the top and with a rojak at the botom or a set of platform steps used with a ladder mat.

The H and S will never ban ladders as many jobs eg tree surgery or painting and decorating canot ecenomicly be done any other way. As I interprit it if i take steps to reduce the risk were possible then I am complying

[genesis_windows]

If you work safely off a ladder then you will be within the realms of the law, maybe youll have a prob if you fall.
thats not the reason i use wfp on ALL windows up and down and have done  so for the last year.
the reason is - piece of mind with regards to my own safety, working clever(poles are lighter than ladders and you dont need to climb them),effective results (never had a complaint after explaining about 1st cleans),and the amount of money you can make SO much quicker than off  ladder.
window cleaning is very financially rewarding but since i started 15 years ago i have seen lots of ways, ladders, cherry pickers, abseiling etc and the quickest and easiest by far is the wfp.
If you guys want to use ladders and squeegees, my hat goes off to you.
Ive done it for years and cant be arsed  to climb anymore, sod the hse, like its been said before,its not being policed. i do it for the easy life in comparison to the ladder.
our job is to clean windows, not slag off how eachother do it. if you dont want a system, dont get one, if you dont want to climb a ladder- dont.
but whatever happens, its your choice(as long as you dont break the law)

[rosskesava]

I think the above posting is the best I've read on the subject.

I agree 100%.

Cheers

[Ian_Giles]

We keep having the Trad v WFP don't we?
I totally agree with Genesis and Tosh (who are both thinking along the same lines)
I don't give much of a care about the law, it wasn't the reason I got into WFP.

At the time I was on the point of packing in the window cleaning and maybe starting up in light haulage.
I was finding ladder work harder and harder, I've spent my entire working life up a ladder, first as a decorator and then a window cleaner.
My pension is worthless, I didn't want to be climbing 35ft up a ladder when I was well past retirement age.
I was becoming more and more aware of the dangers of working up a ladder, and no matter how careful you are you always have those little slips where nothing happens, but you know full well that on another occasion it could be disaster.
And then I went for WFP.
My working life is just so much bloody easier!
I am no longer so tired at the end of the day and my income has greatly increased, and still has the potential to increase still further.
When I get to the point I'm aiming for, I'll be earning my target income and will be finished by lunchtime most days.
I'm not aiming as high as many on the forum, but my target income is very acheivable, but there is no way I could do this at my age using traditional methods.

Squeaks mentioned a conversation we had the other day, his recollection of it is different to mine.
Do I think WFP would be suitable for his round?
Simple answer - yes.
But we were not really talking about the suitability of WFP for his round, rather it was more in line with would he earn more than enough to - for instance - pay for a new van + equipment and be left with more money in his pocket than he has a t present.
Over this question I hesitated and pondered my reply, Squeaks is known by all on here to be fairly anti WFP, so I didn't want to give an inaccurate reply to his question.
His observation was what is the point if I am going to earn more money but spend it on the payments for a van and new equipment?
A valid point I think.
And I have to bear in mind the Squeaks is pretty quick with trad.
But this was only a conversation through the van window as I was dropping off my daughter for her lift to work, and Squeaks was buying his newspaper (The Daily ****)
A little unfair of you Rog to use that to highlight a point you were making.
We didn't have the time to truly discuss the issue, and there are really several aspects to explore, which I'd gladly do.

Also, many customers are becoming aware of the WAHD, often new customers are actually ahead of me, and I usually have to tell them that, no, ladders are not banned, but they might be in the future.

Like Dai I also hope that ladder users remain ladder users for the foreseable future, unfortunately WFP usage is accelerating

It isn't a licence to print money, there is much to learn and understand....

Ian

[Sir Squeaky]

...Squeaks is known by all on here to be fairly anti WFP, so I didn't want to give an inaccurate reply to his question.
His observation was what is the point if I am going to earn more money but spend it on the payments for a van and new equipment?
A valid point I think.
And I have to bear in mind the Squeaks is pretty quick with trad.

Sorry Ian, that's what I was getting at, but I didn't explain it here properly.