[Ian_Giles]

We often see references in various threads about how much money you can turn over in a day or a week, or some like Squeaks (not a dig Rog, merely using you as an example cos I know you) who will say that some are ripping customers off with their high prices.

But just what is a decent income for a sole  trader window cleaner to earn?

What do you consider to be a decent income for the job you do?

I'm not talking about your turnover here, I'm talking about your wage, your real income....NOT YOUR BUSINESS TURNOVER!!

I've mentioned in other threads how I know guys doing very ordinary picking work in warehouses and earning about £25,000 per year, continental shifts, 4 days on, 4 days off, lots of holidays all included and so on....

I would personally like my income to at least equal that, or to be honest, to exceed that, after all, it isn't just the fact that I clean windows, I also run a business, unlike our factory worker who clocks in and then clocks out at the end of the day; job done.

Now once you have decided what you want your income to be, lets say 20k, you then have to work out how you are going to go about developing your business to the point where you can actually draw a wage of 20k per year.

You need to allow for the three weeks holiday per year (2 weeks summer hols and a week at Christmas) and the bank holidays too. and there are another 6 of those (we've allowed for the 2 at Christmas above) to take into consideration.

You need to also be realistic in allowing for down time due to various reasons, bad weather, car in for a service/mot/repair, sickness and so on, that'll take up at least another 8 days or so.

So I would guess that you would have to allow 6 weeks in total.

You have also to take into account that the vast majority of sole trader window cleaners probably work a maximum of 6 hours per day, and by that I don't mean when you clock off early, I mean the actual time you are cleaning windows and not moving between accounts, writing out invoices or talking to customers, having tea breaks and so on.

You also have to be realistic in your business costs too, your vehicle is usually the biggest overhead, it doesn't matter that you will have had a car anyway, you could not do the job without a vehicle.
Yet again, if you are going to be a proper businessman you have to build in investment and profit for your small business.
I think it is more than reasonable to allow for about 5k per year for all of your business costs, depreciation on vehicles, purchasing new equipment, ladders and so on.

So you have to make enough in 46 weeks productively working roughly 30-32 hours per week.

So your daily turnover needs to be in the region of £100 per day, and you have to average that across all of the 46 weeks you can reasonably hope to work in any given year.
In your 6 hours at work (and I think that's generous) you have to do about £17.00 an hour.

Doesn't sound to difficult does it?

We all know it is perfectly reasonable to expect to do around £100 per day quite comfortably, when you look at those figures Squeaks accusations of rip off pricing by some of us sound pretty fair...don't you think?

But you still need to knock out about £25,000 per year to make your 20k wage, and the £100 per day turn over needs to be more like £150 at least on any given day if you want a realistic chance of turning over 25k at the end of the year....

How many of you (sole traders) submitted a turnover to the tax man above 25k?

But as I said at the start of this post, I want an income of at least 25k, I think that is a perfectly reasonable aim, and my own business overheads are more than 5k per year too, so to get my 25k per year income I need to turnover somewhat more than £30,000 per year in order to do so, I need to do over £700 per week, I actually need to get close to £200 on any given day I work. I need to average £30 plus per hour....

suddenly those rip off prices are not quite such a rip off at all, if I want to equal my mates picking in a warehouse and get an income worth £500 per week I really do need to keep my prices high....

And at £500 per week that really isn't a very big income at all....is it.

Ian

[pylofm]

Without wanting to blow too much smoke up your ar$e....these figures are very close to my own projections with regard to daily/weekly/monthly hours worked verses income.....I too have projected that 6 weeks of no income per year is reasonable...

My business is very much a start-up still but each and every week I trawl through "George" and the various reports and project the figures, this is what drives my leafleting locations.....30k (sterling) sounds like a figure I want...and why not, I invest in my business and expect a good return....I do not consider myself the image of the local window cleaner...walking from street to street making enough to get by...that is not enough....leave that you Stan Ogden.

Make a plan, action the plan and revise the plan....I have no work this week...but  I shall be out finding it....and making the plan work.

I have booked my holiday for next year and will spend 21 days in Thailand....4 days of that on a liveaboard dive ship using plenty of Helium mix gas ($$$$), this all costs and will be funded by my boots doing the walking and getting the word out...thats the plan Stan !!!  ...fail to plan, plan to fail...

Cheers
Dave.

[Pat Purcell]

Very interesting reading Ian,a few questions spring to mind have you ever revised your projections down to figure an average per window price or an average per customer price
And secondly have you ever figured out the cost to you to wash the average window or average house
When you figure your business overheads does that include cost of petrol/diesel, insurance,taxes, retirement etc

[Sir Squeaky]

Ian, I've never known anyone who works in warehouses or factories taking home more than £300-400 a week.

£25,000? No way.

[Paul Coleman]

We often see references in various threads about how much money you can turn over in a day or a week, or some like Squeaks (not a dig Rog, merely using you as an example cos I know you) who will say that some are ripping customers off with their high prices.

But just what is a decent income for a sole  trader window cleaner to earn?

What do you consider to be a decent income for the job you do?

I'm not talking about your turnover here, I'm talking about your wage, your real income....NOT YOUR BUSINESS TURNOVER!!

I've mentioned in other threads how I know guys doing very ordinary picking work in warehouses and earning about £25,000 per year, continental shifts, 4 days on, 4 days off, lots of holidays all included and so on....


You have also to take into account that the vast majority of sole trader window cleaners probably work a maximum of 6 hours per day, and by that I don't mean when you clock off early, I mean the actual time you are cleaning windows and not moving between accounts, writing out invoices or talking to customers, having tea breaks and so on.

You also have to be realistic in your business costs too, your vehicle is usually the biggest overhead, it doesn't matter that you will have had a car anyway, you could not do the job without a vehicle.
Yet again, if you are going to be a proper businessman you have to build in investment and profit for your small business.
I think it is more than reasonable to allow for about 5k per year for all of your business costs, depreciation on vehicles, purchasing new equipment, ladders and so on.

So you have to make enough in 46 weeks productively working roughly 30-32 hours per week.

So your daily turnover needs to be in the region of £100 per day, and you have to average that across all of the 46 weeks you can reasonably hope to work in any given year.
In your 6 hours at work (and I think that's generous) you have to do about £17.00 an hour.

Doesn't sound to difficult does it?

We all know it is perfectly reasonable to expect to do around £100 per day quite comfortably, when you look at those figures Squeaks accusations of rip off pricing by some of us sound pretty fair...don't you think?

But you still need to knock out about £25,000 per year to make your 20k wage, and the £100 per day turn over needs to be more like £150 at least on any given day if you want a realistic chance of turning over 25k at the end of the year....

How many of you (sole traders) submitted a turnover to the tax man above 25k?

But as I said at the start of this post, I want an income of at least 25k, I think that is a perfectly reasonable aim, and my own business overheads are more than 5k per year too, so to get my 25k per year income I need to turnover somewhat more than £30,000 per year in order to do so, I need to do over £700 per week, I actually need to get close to £200 on any given day I work. I need to average £30 plus per hour....

suddenly those rip off prices are not quite such a rip off at all, if I want to equal my mates picking in a warehouse and get an income worth £500 per week I really do need to keep my prices high....

And at £500 per week that really isn't a very big income at all....is it.

Ian

My calculations are a bit different to yours Ian not not by much.  According to stuff I've calculated, your numbers are there or thereabouts - but we all work a bit differently.  Even working trad my expenses were over £4,000 for the year way back in '03.  Mind you, that included a proportion of a new computer.  The running costs just of my van were £2,300 - after apportioning business use - and that was a little, bog standard Escort van.  So allowing about 5 grand for all expenses with WFP (incl. running a larger van) is possibly a bit conservative especially with the increased fuel prices.  There are quite a few window cleaners who don't seem to have a great appreciation of the difference between turnover and profit PLUS the need to save a bit towards the next big outlay.
I do offset everything against tax that is reasonable.  I put nothing down unless I could explain it properly (or a proportion of it).  My accountant wouldn't let me get away with anything anyway as it could end up reflecting badly on him.  Sometimes he asks me to explain an expense.  I think he has only ever disallowed two items in 15 years and with both of those I genuinely believed that I was OK.  Still, that's what he's there for I suppose.
I actually voted for 30 grand+ .  I don't achieve anything close to that yet though.  I do have an idea of what I would like to turn over this accounting year but I won't post it as I wouldn't want to be accused of showing off.  Anyway,  I am short of that at the moment but I have to remember that my accounting year starts at the beginning of the Winter so the half year until the end of March probably would show some shortfall within the overall total.  Also, the better paying work I've picked up in recent times (and the lower paying work that I no longer have) hasn't really started to show up in the figures yet.
<SOME OF IAN'S POST SNIPPED AS REPLY WAS TOO LONG FOR BOARD>

[paul saunders]

I agree with squeeky clean, I'm a skilled cabinet maker (trying to become a skilled window cleaner) and I don't earn £25,000 per year.

Also you are basing your figures on a 30-32 hour working week.
My working week is 39 hours, that's on average 7 hours a week more than you.

So, 7 hours X 46 weeks @ £17.00 an hour = £ 5474 extra per year

So, if you did as many hours as me, on your current £17.00 an hour you would be earning over £30,000 per year.

btw that's for a flat week, if I was to add the overtime, you'd be earning in exess of £50,000. 

[Paul Coleman]

Ian, I've never known anyone who works in warehouses or factories taking home more than £300-400 a week.

£25,000? No way.

That seemed a bit high to me as well - though I have known such figures if someone puts in a lot of overtime.  Some companies pay half year;ly or yearly bonuses which need to be taken account of too.  Even so, I believe the £25,000 figure is pretty unusual even here in the southeast.

[DASERVICES]

Ian,

Totally agree with you, we treat window cleaning as a job and not as a business. There is no other trade that brings in so little revenue, would plumbers, carpenters etc.. come out and do a job for £2.50. No they would not as it would financially ruin them, so why do it as a trade.

Because our trade is full of people that work in an illegal way for example claiming benefits, doing it as a second job so they offer their services as peanuts and as a result the general public only want to pay peanuts.

Realistaclly we should be trying to hit an average of £30 per hour so an income of £30k+ should be acheivable. Squeeky will probably disagree with this but who was shouting not so long ago about no money to pay his tax !! Why, because maybe his prices are too low like a lot of us, so when it comes to rainy days, sickness etc.. we have no cash to cover these needs. Why, because we do not treat our job as a business like we should.

What I have found is there are people will to pay those rates as long as you provide a good service, but these are very few. So how do we get the general public to acknowledge on what a good job we do and pay us what we are worth.

That is a tall order which I would have thought the FED would have sorted out but this will never be acheived until everyone working in the window cleaning industry is on the same par as everyone else.

Hopefully the SLWCN in Scotland who are working with local goverment may be able to make an improvement in sorting our industry up here in Scotland. If we are all paying insurance, licenses etc.. then prices will rise and £30k a year will be an easy traget. But that is long time away as what the most important thing is getting public awareness in what costs the decent window cleaner has to face. If they are aware of this then they will be more favourable of paying £15 for a 4 bed house instead of the £4.50 they are used to.

In summary everyone should be earning £30k, it's a business as well as a job.

Doug

[spotless2000]

Ian, I've never known anyone who works in warehouses or factories taking home more than £300-400 a week.

£25,000? No way.

The food company I left this time last is currently paying £28K to their production workers and the one I worked for before that is paying £32K.  Both continental shifts.

Steve

[steve k]

Ian...i`ve never really understood the thinking behind this turnover/profit thing.

When you take a conventional salaried job...the wage is advertised as, say £30k per annum and this would be considered a good salary by many people.

BUT...this is gross salary - just like our turnover...and is subject to tax, NI, travel costs, car loan repayments and car maintenance costs, workwear costs etc etc

Just like the self employed, their profit is what is left when the work related bills have been paid.

So when an office worker is on £30k per annum (turnover) it is no different than a window cleaner having a turnover of £30K...thier surplus expenditure will be roughly the same as will their standard of living.

The overheads in window cleaning are LOW.

[DaveWilkinson]

Something to think about in this wc earnings compared to factory workers, plumbers etc.

Your 3 bedroom semi that you charge say £10.00 for and you get to clean it every 4 weeks is 13 cleans per year, thats £130.00 per year.

My customers, as a plumber i get to work for maybe once per year sometimes once every 2 years, and the small average job will cost them £75.00 so each of my customers are worth alot less per annum. Yes granted sometimes I get bigger  more time intensive jobs and make alot more from that customer per annum.
We also have to bring in a high number of customers constantly to keep bringing in the money.

Dont get me wrong with the right marketing plumbers can make very high money for a lot less work than a wc has to do, but the attraction of window cleaning for me is the regular customer base.

I dont see anything wrong with a wc earning 35k+, with the weather, danger and its still running a business so the stresses associated with it, 35k......that should be the minimum in my mind.

DAve

[ronaldo]

Ian, I've never known anyone who works in warehouses or factories taking home more than £300-400 a week.

£25,000? No way.

Definatley not round here either, i have two good mates order picking at Halfords in Redditch both have worked there 8 years each and both are on £8.00 hr, 37.5hrs a week, roughly £15 and half k a year.
Another pal works as a fully skilled fitter for Scania trucks £10.50 hr 40 hr week Roughly £22 k a year, ,
You,ll have to email the addresses for these factories Ian ive got a flt licence and i,ll chase them up for a job myself and sell my round and get paid for my holidays when i take them.

[Russell Macdonald]

This is where its hard to draw the line. Our gross & net figures are too different things. We fight our gross figure hard, claiming all that we can to get that net down as low as possible within the tax rules, i know i do.

We cant compare our net figure to a employed wage as the still have to pay out for their car, clothing etc, where as our net figure has already claimed that.

Macc

[Jon T.C.]

How many of you (sole traders) submitted a turnover to the tax man above 25k?

05/06 £25,777
06/07 £36k projected
07/08 £46k projected

[brightnclean]

Question: So what do you consider to be a fair wage for the job you do? 

That is the initial question but I don't earn a wage. I run a business. Its a question of mentallity. I see so many saying the going rate is such and such. There is no such thing as a going rate in any area. Economic factors will come into it from area to area but still the going rate should not be a factor in what profit you make. If you invest in your business in terms of money and effort and treat it as a real business you can make a very healthy living.

I haven.t stated a figure in the poll but it is quite healthy thank you after only 18 months. I believe I am worth what I put INTO my business. Not what I get out of it.  The truth is one follows another. Its really down to how you value yourself and your aspirations.

[spotless2000]

Do you value working for yourself in purely financial terms?

I value the flexibility that I now have.  I have more quality time with my family.  Job satisfaction (running a business) is rewarding.  My work/home life has a healthy balance.

Steve

[macmac]

i dont really waste much time on projections etc, i spend my time earning as much money as poss. now i'm established i charge for each new account as much as i think i can possibly get away with. my goal is always to work less for more money, the only time (within reason) i look at my earnings is at the end of each year when i tot-up for the accountant. So what i consider to be reasonable is what i stated above- as much as possible!! only being honest here.

tony

[brightnclean]

Do you value working for yourself in purely financial terms?

I value the flexibility that I now have.  I have more quality time with my family.  Job satisfaction (running a business) is rewarding.  My work/home life has a healthy balance.

Steve

Spot on Steve.

As I said its about HOW you value yourdelf and your aspirations. Whatever they may be. I do have financial aspirations but they are targetted at providing my family with financial security coupled with quality time. It is all too easy to say "I wont bother today" in WCing so I have learned to discipline myself to work 5 days per week whenever possible. This allows me to achieve all of my aims.

[S.Carpenter]

if i was working at mcdonalds earning £5/hour then I consider about £4 an hour a good wage for not having to put up with all the crap, having a crap boss, working crap hours.

but i dont work at mcdonalds

and just dont tell anybody who does how much they could be earning.....

thats the biggest problem with this forum, ppl post how they earn £200 a day, now everybody wants to be a window cleaner.....


i used to work I for £9/hour top bonus picking in a warehouse, so anything more than £9/hour is total bonus.

[Mike_G]

I hope the tax man does not read this site too often.