[Adam P]

we've been asked to quote to clean a smallish office and need some advice as this would be our first dealing with TUPE and it's something i'm very scared of.

There is currently 1 cleaner for just 2 hours working every work day between 6am-8am.

although it's only a small amount i'm completely new to TUPE and have no clue what to do with quoting (will i need to increase price slightly to cover any potential TUPE problems) as well as what information we need to know to take this any further. I didn't ask the owner of the office anything about it as i didn't know at the time if i need to know anything more so have limlited information about this.

when i submit my quote will i need to ask for details of the last cleaning company so i can get in touch if i am successful? do  ineed to know anything? i assume it's ok to provide a quote and then state that this quote does not take into account TUPE which could increase the price?

i'm worried that although we shouldn't lose it and the business wont go out of business but we'll be stuck with any issues from previous employment.

also a little off topic: do people ever go back to the client and ask more questions after doing a site visit if they realise something isn't cleared? e.g. this customer asked for hand towels and toilet rolls, however they never mentioned the hand soap. i may just give the price for this so not so bad but in past i've had other thoughts and held back from asking more questions after i've visited the site as it feels amatuerish.

[garyj]

Why does TUPE increase the price 

[Adam P]

i've seen it said before on here that it's something to consider. if you take on staff who haven't had any holiday yet then you need to pay this, same with if you lose the site for whatever reason then you're responsible for redundancy pay. i know it's only a small site but it's only small profits so don't want it eaten by chance we have to deal with additional costs.

as mentioned this is first time i've dealt with TUPE so could be wrong which is why i've made this thread.

[garyj]

I'm afraid that is something you have to swallow and unfortunately it's the law. This is doubly stupid because more often than not it is the cleaner on sites work that has lost the contract in the first place.
When you awarded the contract you have to write to the other company and request the terms and conditions, pay and holiday entitlement for the cleaners on site. Very often you won't get a reply! Any holiday entitlement that cleaner has earned passes straight to you, that is what TUPE is all about. You can't charge extra for it, who are you going to charge? The customer has already paid it to the other company so won't want to pay it again, the leaving company aren't going to give it to you, so you have to think what t he lifetime of the customer profit is and weigh up the pros and cons to see if the contract is worth taking, if you are good and plan to hang on to the contract for years then usually its a bitter pill worth swallowing.   

[garyj]

i assume it's ok to provide a quote and then state that this quote does not take into account TUPE which could increase the price?

Hers is a quote from your website :-

"Pay How You Like

What the contract states is what you pay, there are no extra hidden charges, with plenty payment options available for each cleaning service."

If you write something on your website shouldn't you honour it or am I being old fashioned?

[Adam P]

i don't understand what you're getting at with the last post.

[Pristine Clean]

Adam,

Call me and I will guide you.

Dave

[Pristine Clean]

I'm afraid that is something you have to swallow and unfortunately it's the law. This is doubly stupid because more often than not it is the cleaner on sites work that has lost the contract in the first place.
When you awarded the contract you have to write to the other company and request the terms and conditions, pay and holiday entitlement for the cleaners on site. Very often you won't get a reply! Any holiday entitlement that cleaner has earned passes straight to you, that is what TUPE is all about. You can't charge extra for it, who are you going to charge? The customer has already paid it to the other company so won't want to pay it again, the leaving company aren't going to give it to you, so you have to think what t he lifetime of the customer profit is and weigh up the pros and cons to see if the contract is worth taking, if you are good and plan to hang on to the contract for years then usually its a bitter pill worth swallowing.   

Gary,

I don't agree that it was the cleaner that will lose the contract in the first place.

It is the cleaning company responsibility to monitor the site so that this does not happen.

If the cleaning company is too busy or has not priced correctly for monitoring the site by a supervisor or does not have a monitoring system in the first place it is the companies fault.

If the cleaning company has a bad cleaner they need to resolve the issue with training, or replace the cleaner and keep the client happy 100% of the time.

Companies lose contracts because of lack of input and communication with their staff.

Dave

[garyj]

i don't understand what you're getting at with the last post.

Well on your website you say what you quote is what you pay and are now asking if you can charge extra, just doesn't make sense.

But then again you also claim to be surrey's leading greeen carpet cleaner. Err, on who's say so? you've only been going 5 mins. Think you will find there would be quite a few carpet cleaners in Surrey that would take issue with that, one of them being a well known poster on here who has been going years and has awards for Eco cleaning carpets in.....Surrey.

As a matter of interest and a serious question, do you honestly believe you are Surrey's leading green carpet cleaner? If answer is yes please justify and make me look stupid if answer is no then why is it on your web site.

[garyj]

Yes Dave you are half right that the ultimate responsibility comes down to the management of the contract, but it could equally be argued that the cleaner has been trained and therefore knows what to do so they can take some of the blame, they are supposed to be responsible adults after all, they know when they are taking the micky and most will try it on. Some are beyond help and will blame everybody for everything.

[Adam P]

i think you're trying to have a go at something but not really finding that something.

on my website i say you pay what we state, so when i say in the quote it'll cost x and then additional for y and z if they are needed then that is what i state. so this is why i then said i don't get your point. I'm not being hidden with my costs as it'll be in the quote, and on my site i say we put it all in the quote.

yes we claim to be surrey's greenest cleaning company. this is of course something we can't prove and is advertising stuff. we feel we are one of the greenest cleaning companies (we actually aren't a company either but who really cares) in the area and are happy to say it. i could battle with the guy on this forum about how he's greener then us but it'd be pointless as we're both try to be a green cleaning company and imo that's all that matters. you could say that as all he does is carpets but we also do office cleaning then we're greener but it's just arguing over nothing. no customer will get quotes from bnoth of us and choose us over him because we say we're greener.

i wanted the slogan to say where we cover, what we do, and why we're unique. it does all those in a one simple sentence and i like it

i also don't understand your problem with us only going 5 minutes and how this relates to being green?

[Pristine Clean]

Yes Dave you are half right that the ultimate responsibility comes down to the management of the contract, but it could equally be argued that the cleaner has been trained and therefore knows what to do so they can take some of the blame, they are supposed to be responsible adults after all, they know when they are taking the micky and most will try it on. Some are beyond help and will blame everybody for everything.

Gary,

The client wont see it that way. The cleaner is representing the cleaning company.

The cleaner should be adequate and up to the job even before being allowed on site and is / should have undergone a training programme and signed off as Fully Trained.

You have to deliver a high standard. If the cleaner is inadequate then the company is to blame. That's the idea of the monitoring system.

So this does not happen. If monitored correctly then all should be well and any issues caught before the client can find fault.

There are many reasons why standards are not met. It is not all to do with the cleaner.

lack of knowledge from the contractor,  not having the correct tools or tool up to the job or maybe a cleaning specification that is wrong for that environment to name but only a few.

The fault lies with the company whether or not the cleaner is to blame for the issue.

We have over 40 staff and it takes time, effort and money to get to where we are today.

Dave

[garyj]

I'm not disagreeing with you but do think the cleaner shares some of the resposibility, as I said they have been trained so they know what to do. The problem I find is that this industry attracts many people who don't know what responsibility is but want the highest rate of pay for the least amount of work. Some are well beyond help, I'm thinking that if Surrey clean takes on this contract and inherites the cleaner through TUPE in a short space of time the cleaner will go back to old habits within a short space of time.


Back to the 'Leading green carpet cleaner in Surrey' quote from your website. No it's not just marketing talk, I think anything written like that should be qualified in some way. i know I am right in saying that you haven't been cleaning carpets long at all and I would suggest it is a blatant lie that you are the leading company in the county. As you will also do a non-Green clean and the other companies I know of won't it makers the text even more laughable.

My website will be back up in a day or two, you can rip me and mine apart if you want. Would especially be grateful if you find any bull or lies on it, if so I'll change it, I wouldn't want to mislead any of my customers and then just claim it is marketing talk.

[garyj]

i

i also don't understand your problem with us only going 5 minutes and how this relates to being green?

It doesn't, it relates to you being the 'Leading' company. It is a lie and misleading whichever way you look at it.

[Adam P]

well i can't be bothered to go over what leading and the greenest means but basically just want to say that they're not lies as they can't be proved, they're opinions. i see your opinion and now you know ours. in my opinion

if you can define to me what are the set standards to be the greenest cleaning company, or what you need to do to be the leading company then i'll change it if i find i'm wrong. i don't understand why you're so against this. it's fair to say we aren't going to say we're the second most greenest cleaning company in surrey.

[garyj]

Of course it could be proved that one company in particular in Surrey is both Greener and more experienced than you. For one the company I am thinking of only offers Green cleaning, you offer both, this company has also been going over 20 years, is well known and won awards. Also been a member of every organisation I can think of and is someone that people turn to for advice.  To say you are the leading Green cleaning company in Surrey is a lie, and a great big fat one at that. I'm against it because it is an untruth, it's made up deceit and complete bull.
When in a hole stop digging. 

[Pristine Clean]

Gary,

Where Surrey has worded it that they are the greenest & leading company.

Its just marketing. Its subjective. We all promote our companies in the best possible light to attract the right clients.

So as it is subjective it is not actually a lie. Think about about it. Whatever line of work you are in. Do you not consider yourself to be the "best" at what you do?

If you don't then why do you do it? And if you do think you are the best do you tell your customers you are right for the job?

Or would you recommend another company in the same line of work as you? 

And as for awards, they have awards because of marketing and have been recognised for what they do and their size.

Just because Surrey has no awards does not mean he is not the Best at what he does. He is trying to achieve or make a significance that and he may well be the greenest and leading at his sites and better than the previous contractor.


Dave

[Pristine Clean]

I'm not disagreeing with you but do think the cleaner shares some of the resposibility

But the cleaning company placed them at that site. So its the company that is at fault. After all the cleaner is representing You. Although I don't entirely disagree with you

as I said they have been trained so they know what to do. The problem I find is that this industry attracts many people who don't know what responsibility is but want the highest rate of pay for the least amount of work.

I agree.

Some are well beyond help, I'm thinking that if Surrey clean takes on this contract and inherites the cleaner through TUPE in a short space of time the cleaner will go back to old habits within a short space of time.

Not if he implements a monitoring system and adheres to it and manages the staff correctly. If for example there were more than 1 staff to TUPE over and he finds there is one bad egg. He must discipline/remove that bad egg.

[garyj]

Nope, it is worded we are The leading green company in Surrey. He isn't, therefore it is a lie. It's not subjective it is a statement. Are you saying its only marketing so we can say what we like, what complete rubbish.

Do I consider myself the best? nope far from it, there are far more experienced and better cleaners around than me, I have lots to learn yet.
 

[Pristine Clean]

So all he has to do then, is change "The" to an "A" because he could be a leading company.

To prove that would take some doing and I believe would be virtually impossible and to costly for most companies to even consider to be bothered by it. Plus that would make it Subjective if we must really get down to technical details.

Also who would actually challenge him on the subjective line in my opinion? Apart from your good self.

[garyj]

Yep could do. But why use 'best' at all? 'Strive' and 'endevour to be' sound more professional and makes it sound like you are moving forward rather than resting on your laurals ( with nothing to back it up).
Or use 'we are the best because.....' then give a reason to use you, it is lazily written.
Another tip...... I would have thought the use of the word chemical doesn't sit well on a site that is promoting 'green' and 'eco' cleaning, why not use 'solution' instead or think of another alternative.

On a serious note as bored of this topic now, please have a look at your text, spelling and grammar on your website. Are you marketing to an educated household, a company Director or a barely literate teenager?

[Pristine Clean]

Wow,

You really like to dig your claws into some people for no apparent reason.

Why do you try to belittle people does it make you feel Big and better about yourself?

And you are right, I know some of it is badly written my English is not the best mainly to a poor education. But the site has pulled in enough work for us to grow on almost a daily basis.

At least it is up and running.

[garyj]

Oh wasn't aimed at you and haven't looked at your site to be honest.

Think I might have a personality disorder, can't say it makes me feel big or better about myself but it does amuse me when someone claims to be the 'leading' or 'best' when they clearly have little knowledge and no foundation to base that on. Aren't you a little worried the leading and best green company in Surrey has no idea what TUPE is and also has only been cleaning carpets for a few months, they also have no idea about getting keys cut and even if its worth mentioning to the homeowner/ company if those keys go missing! Doesn't say much about the other companies in Surrey does it .

[sam1975]

Hi Clean surrey.
What chemicals to you use exactly?
Dont worry about TUPE , it was put in place to protect peoples rights, just dont be a jerk or lie and no one will sue you. I have won a TUPE contract with a lessor quote, we made the money out of being more efficient with the cleners time.
Cheers

[Adam P]

sam: too many to list what chemicals we use. most though are from nenviro.co.uk and i'd highly recommend them as would others on here.

Garyj: are these companies liers?

Peugeot - The drive of your life.
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine.
Chevrolet - The Heartbeat of America
Macdonalds - I'm Lovin It.

prove any of these to be true.

oh wow another reason to have a go at me. water is a chemical we keep the use of the word chemicals to a minimum for the reason you've explained, in fact i don't think we've used it in a silly way at all so maybe i've missed the point again

[garyj]

Wouldn't like to say, but then again the people that created Peugeot, BMW and Chevrolet aren't on a forum asking basic questions about their own product which would leave me doubting them!

If you are going to make claims like "I'm the best and I'm the leading" then you have to back them up with knowledge and an excellent product. Your question about the keys left me wondering what planet you are on and the question about TUPE could have been found right here on  this forum with the help of the search facility.

PS, You could easily not use the word chemical at all, that would be keeping it to a minimum, let the 'normal' companies use those words!

I am trying to help you, honest.

[kelley]

Wouldn't like to say, but then again the people that created Peugeot, BMW and Chevrolet aren't on a forum asking basic questions about their own product which would leave me doubting them!

If you are going to make claims like "I'm the best and I'm the leading" then you have to back them up with knowledge and an excellent product. Your question about the keys left me wondering what planet you are on and the question about TUPE could have been found right here on  this forum with the help of the search facility.

PS, You could easily not use the word chemical at all, that would be keeping it to a minimum, let the 'normal' companies use those words!

I am trying to help you, honest.

doesnt knowledge come from all different places? is this not one of the places to find it?

  i really dont know why people act so high and mighty on places like this. surely people signed up to gain and share information that have aquired from other places!

FRIENDLY PLACE............................ sadly not sometimes

[Adam P]

well the question about keys doesn't mean we aren't green, it doesn't mean we aren't the greenest either. if our slogan was something like "we are the only green company", or "we are the most experienced green cleaning company" then this would be a lie. however what we've said is we're the greenest. this is subjective as has been pointed out. you cannot say i'm not the greenest because you know someone else who is green, and based on the fact i asked questions about keys and TUPE that also doesn't mean i'm not the greenest.

i don't think bmw would allow their website to go offline like yours has for so long and neither would i. can i now say i'm a better carpet cleaner then you?

[garyj]

Don't worry about the website that I use here, it's not my only one  .

Oh dear, of course the question about keys and TUPE hasn't got anything to do with being green, sorry I think I was giving you more credit than you deserved. I haven't even tried to connect the two, they are separate issues anyone with half an ounce of common sense can work that out.

You are already claiming to be the leading green company in Surrey, so sure go ahead and claim you're a better carpet cleaner than me, you must be because I know a lot of carpet cleaners in Surrey that are better than me, and you're better than them! You're also £50 an hour cheaper so you must be snowed under with work.

I stand by the fact that by you saying you are 'the leading green company in Surrey" is a blatant lie designed to fool your potential customers. You've already tried to say it doesn't matter as its "just marketing" and compared your tag line with McDonalds 'I'm Lovin' It', I can't see the comparison, can you help me out?

Kelley, how can I seriously reply to someone who's only contribution has been to attack me personally with name calling and then delete it, you've also offered no input or help to any posted subject by Surreyclean, what is your purpose in joining in?

PS, thanks for reminding me how damn good I am, I'd forgotten how much I know. Starting to think I should start the contract cleaning side up again, so far I really don't rate the competition.   

[Adam P]

so far I really don't rate the competition.   

how lovely

good idea though. start a business again because someone who (by your own words) "has only been going 5 mins" aren't as good as you after years of being in the business. great plan  :

[garyj]

Yike, you don't get it do you. What I said was you've reminded me of how great I am so perhaps I should start up again.

Anyway, have you worked out yet that if you lose someone's keys is it a good idea to let them know or not?

Have you worked out the irony of claiming to be the leading green company in Surrey but not knowing what TUPE is ( you even state you're "scared" of it )and even worse not bothering to research it.

And what are you going to do about those windows?

As I said, I am trying to help you, that's why I thought I'd let you know your Liability Insurance on your website ran out nearly 6 months ago. A simple thanks Gary will do 

[garyj]

Wow, how odd, you're logo is remarkably similar to the company I would consider to be the leading green company in Surrey, is that a coincidence or another device to fool potential customers  .

[Adam P]

old website needs updating with newest information, but other sites come first. i built it when i just turned 21 and think it's served us very well as almost all business comes from it. i look at competition and am happy with what i have created myself.

not worked it out yet with the keys, just as i haven't worked it out if i should tell my other half the diner was awful tonight.


i've bothered to research it, one method was in this thread. another was by googling. another way searching the forums

have you worked out the benefits of us saying we're Surrey's Greenest Cleaning Company even though perhaps we can't prove this and it's just marketing stuff. I based leading on other factors to what you based them on. does that mean you're correct. i'll say it again, it's subjective. we can say we're the greenest as in our opinion the green on the work tops we wear is greener then the white tops our green carpet cleaning competition wears. i'd be ok to think it and it wouldn't be a lie. make of it what you want. it works for us, perhaps not as good as it could and perhaps not as good as another method but it's what we want to focus on for our own reasons. we went into cleaning as a green cleaner only at first as we didn't like the normal methods of cleaning, i don't know about the guy you mentioned but if he want into cleaning and chose green cleaning simple because he thought it'd sell rather then because he believes in it being his first choice then again this imo would make us greener, and leading the way it should be.

give examples of similarity of the logo's as i've never seen anything like it.

[garyj]

No he lives and breaths green eco cleaning, must admit its not my thing but I do use microsplitters sometimes on wool and don't think you can get any more green than that. My preferred method is as high a PH I can get away with and an acid rinse. Anyway I use a truckmount that guzzles petrol so can't really push the green angle at all.

Yeah tell her dinner was horrible, if you say it was nice she'll only cook it again   , trying to educate Sarah that beef should be oozing with blood but she still burns it to a cinder ( she'll read  this in the morning  ).

[Sarah Kirby]

Yeah tell her dinner was horrible, if you say it was nice she'll only cook it again   , trying to educate Sarah that beef should be oozing with blood but she still burns it to a cinder ( she'll read  this in the morning  ).

  

[kelley]

Kelley, how can I seriously reply to someone who's only contribution has been to attack me personally with name calling and then delete it, you've also offered no input or help to any posted subject by Surreyclean, what is your purpose in joining in?

i havent called you or anyone else names and i certainly did not delete my post. i was merely saying how rude some people on here can be. ive seen it before but i think you really are going out of your way to be rude. This is supposed to be the place you can come on to and ask any questions about areas you dont know and others help you build up your knowledge.

your right though i havent shared any input on the TUPE questions as i dont fully understand it. which is why i read the post to see if i could gain some new information but clearly i couldnt find anything helpful in the slightest.

i dont wish to argue with you it has become quite clear you like to attack people but i was sharing my opinion on how rude i think it is to do that. surreyclean asked a question and maybe if you had listened when you were a child you may have come across the saying "if youve not got anything nice to say, dont say anything at all"

its not like your even being constructive in your text or in the manner you have spoken to him.  : :

[Denise l]

If you are quoting for an office contract clean where there is an existing cleaner and TUPE rules apply you have to take on the cleaner for the same hourly rate and times of work. This is their rights under the TUPE law. Before submitting your quote you have every right to ask for the TUPE information regarding this and their holiday entitlements already taken. You then have to honour this to the end of the holiday year which is 2o days + 8 days B/H. If you take her on and she has all those holidays and then leaves you will have to pay them. Build into your quote these holidays pro rat over a 12 month and then your 3%materials, equipment + profit etc and then see if you are successful. Good Luck!

[garyj]

i havent called you or anyone else names and i certainly did not delete my post. i was merely saying how rude some people on here can be. 

if you had listened when you were a child you may have come across the saying "if youve not got anything nice to say, dont say anything at all"

its not like your even being constructive in your text or in the manner you have spoken to him.  : :

You're right you didn't delete a post or call me names, I got a confused due to an email, for that I apologise.

"if youve not got anything nice to say, dont say anything at all" 
That's fine for most people but in my case would mean living the life of a mute or a forum lurker.

Anyway Denise has near on answered the question now, and for all the rubbish I've written so far so could I have done, but it wouldn't have been half as much fun .
Many companies simply ignore the TUPE requests, some are pretty cheesed off at losing the contract and even give you the wrong information. Once the contract is awarded it's a good idea to ask that company if  they are happy with the cleaner ( you then know if they want to keep the cleaner or 'manage' them out) and to have a word with the cleaner to explain you do things differently, have a higher standard, will be checking there work and work times more than they are used to plus gives you the opportunity to ask them what holiday they have taken and what pay they are on. In my experience on small contracts the cleaner often goes anyway, but then again, that might be just me!

[cml]

Hi, when taking on contractual recurring jobs you should always check whether there is an existing contractor/company which should give some indication whether TUPE will apply.  There is nothing wrong with asking a company directly whether or not TUPE may apply.  As stated by Denise above you do reserve the right to ask information concerning the current persons employement etc., which you will need to add/make provisions for in your quote and more importantly whether they are happy with the cleaner. Where contracts are won based on price the cleaner, trained or otherwise has no control over this.  In some cases you may not be obligated to take the cleaner on where the contract is not solely/predominately their place of work within the same company.  i.e they were not solely employed to cover the contract in question.

I would suggest that you seek alternative advice about TUPE via an employment law representative or website just for them to give you a guideline as to the procedures.  TUPE at best is a mindfield for most people so you are not alone and each case is base on its own merits.
As stated in a previous response, some companies do not want to give information concerning their employees however there are imposed penaltys for non compliance and remedies by way of compensation should the information provided be false.

Just a small word caution!!!
I get the whole point about the use of sloguns used as a marketing tool but you need to be careful.  When it comes to advertising it comes down to how the information is perceived by the persons receiving it and the reliance they place on this information.  Therefore it does not matter if you are the best, one of the best etc., it does matter if the public are expecting you to be the best and if it is this slogan that has induced them into contract with you.  If you perform a good job, no problem but if not then you may find that the owness would be  on you to prove your statements are actually true.  Nonetheless it is a discretionary decison based on the arguements from both parties that are put forward. Statements and slogans can be very tricky!!!

Good luck and I hope this helps 

[Robert Parry]

Interesting thread!

But please let us all remember, that individual opinions, are, just that opinions! There really is no need to get irate, however we must all remember that strong and forceful debate is one of the few ways to change the status quo!

Regarding TUPE, whatever the size of contract, this legislation has the potential to massively affect the financial wellbeing of any company, if you are not big enough to have a professional HR derpartment/person, please contract this aspect out to one of the many companies that deal with employment matters. Ensure that any company will imdenify you against any losses, either through an insurance or guaranteed payment against any claim. This will of course, increase your costs (welcome to the real world of doing business!). Do not rely on forums, web research or a quick phone call to ACAS, any information gleaned this way, will not be specific or legally bullet proof!

When submitting a quotation, you should ensure that a sentence or paragraph is inserted that states, that the price quoted does not take into account TUPE legislation, and that the cost may have to be adjusted to take the legislation into account.

Any current contrtactor, does not have to furnish any information to the incoming contractor until the client has awarded the contract to the new company. As stated earler in this thread, the outgoing contractor has a legal obligation to supply all relevant information. You should be aware, that once the transfer takes place, you as the incoming contractor, bear all responsibility for any outstanding issues that may exist/or have existed between the out going contractor and their "old" employee, not just, holiday, sickness pay etc.etc.l

Regarding advertising, all advertising must be honest and not mis-leading cml's, words should be adhered to.

Regards,

Rob