Cold Water or Hot Water Cleaning

« **on:** October 10, 2007, 07:30:52 pm »

HI all

Would like to get your thoughts on whether Cold Water Cleaning will have any differnet results to cleaning with Hot Water.

On another forum they are trying to say that Coldwater using M Power works better than using hot water with M Power or detergents.

Does anyone have any views on this as i think that the views being aired are somewhat staged.

« **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2007, 07:34:33 pm »

Neil,

Something I learnt from Doug H. The molecules in hot water have more energy so they move around quicker. Nuff said I think. Hot water is better during pre-spray and extraction certainlky on detergents anyway (not used M power so not qualified to comment) but does sound a bit staged to me too.

Pete

« **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2007, 07:34:58 pm »

Do you bathe in cold water.This has been done before obviously their machine does not have a heater so they brainwash people into thinking cold water is better

« **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2007, 07:41:43 pm »

http://www.cleanprosonline.com/Hotter_chemicals.html

http://www.cleanprosonline.com/greenexcerpt.html

« **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2007, 07:53:58 pm »

After many years of using Woolsafe microsplitters with a warm to hot rinse, I've recently been experimenting a little.

I've used Liquid One Clean and Ecogent as cold water rinses with various pre-treatments and they've performed perfectly.

Ecogent is designed to work in cold water, can be used as a pre-spray, rinse and a spotter. I've used it as directed on various stains including filter soiling, all with excellent results. I've also used it for maintenance bonnet cleaning and it performed as good as the competition. All of this with cold water.

Although MS's only require a freshwater rinse, I had some REALLY greasy polyprop to clean (chinese student let), so I used Prochem Citra-Boost. This type of product is not free rinsing, hence the need for a detergent rinse. I still rinsed cold and the results were stunning. I now adopt this practice for all extreme greasy soiling. I'm not sure of the overall Eco-Credentials but I'm using a Woolsafe, food grade product boosted by a citrus derived booster and a highly acclaimed green rinse agent all using "carbon friendly" cold water. And the whole package works extremely well. I can't detect any difference between a hot or cold pre-spray.

Now, if my business was focused more on the hospitality sector, with constantly high levels of soiling, and I wanted to reduce time on the job by just pre-spraying and rinsing (not uncommon with T/M power) then my practice would fail miserably. Cold water rinsing needs to be supported by high levels of agitation.

Safe and happy cleaning

Ken

« **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:03:29 pm »

As a postcript to my above post, you may liken our procedures to laundering. If you have excessive dry particulate, eg sawdust, plasterdust etc. etc. on your clothes you will shake this off first. The washing stage is a pre-soak folowed by agitation (drum rotating). It is then rinsed with fresh cold water to remove the soil and detergent residues. Some may choose to add a fabric conditioner to the final rinse, but this is not part of the cleaning process.

I was recently informed that some European countries launder totally in cold water with detergents formulated for that purpose.

You will also rinse your car/van/motorbike with cold water. Wash your bath or shower WC and basin and you will rinse with cold water. Most of our spot and stain removers are used cold. The list goes on and on.......

Although I can detergent free clean most carpets with cold water, I think it would be fairer to discus cold water rinsing rather than cold water cleaning.

Safe and happy rinsing:)
Ken

« **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:10:12 pm »

Ken
You are correct in saying that we rinse our laundry in cold water.
But prior to agitating our laundry is heated with the detergent 'prespray'. Often to 40 or 60 degrees & if really filthy to 90 degrees.
Does your theory therefore require us to prespray the really dirty carpets at 90 degrees?

« **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:15:54 pm »

I can always really on this site for an open view about subjects. I am going to give it a try when I can and see what results i can get from it.

Thanks for the reply's

Neil

« **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:18:41 pm »

What's the truth about hot water?

Most cleaners state with strong opinion that hotter chemicals clean better. Cleaning solutions are more active when hot. That's the key.

When cleaning virtually any surface - from carpet to dishes to automobiles and more - adding heat to the cleaning solution makes the cleaning agent more active.

What that does to soils... your experience tells you the answer to that.

Yes, you can clean clothes at home in cold water and get great results, but think about how much dwell time those clothes have in a detergent solution. Think of how much agitation they receive in the washing machine.

With carpet, 10-15 minutes preconditioning dwell time is about all you can expect.

And agitation is often not a big part of the cleaning system. Many cleaners depend on the high pressure of their cleaning machines and cleaning tool movement to be the "agitation". Of course, using a power cleaning tool with any type of cleaning system is an advantage.

There's nothing wrong with that as long as they have good chemicals, time for them to work, and HEAT.

Taken from cleanpros online full report use link above

« **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:29:16 pm »

Steve

I dare you to post this on the other forum

I do feel that HOT is the Way but some say it work, so I will give it a try when I have some time.

Cheers Steve the cleanpro site ss good and gives out a lot of useful information.

« **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:32:39 pm »

Quote from: Neil Grainger on October 10, 2007, 08:29:16 pm

Steve

I dare you to post this on the other forum I do feel that HOT is the Way but some say it work, so I will give it a try when I have some time.

Cheers Steve the cleanpro site ss good and gives out a lot of useful information.

Love too but I'm banned :

« **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:34:45 pm »

also, hot water opens fibres in order for the dirt/soil to be released. freshi

« **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:35:18 pm »

I'm not

Will they ban me if I do?

« **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:37:49 pm »

Quote from: Pete (ex lands) on October 10, 2007, 08:35:18 pm

I'm not

Will they ban me if I do?

Probably

« **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:38:43 pm »

Thats made me think of something Freshi. Everything expands when exposed to heat (not including burning of course) to a lesser or greater degree so the fibres will do so and as would the soil creating a loosening affect surely.

Wheres Doug H. I bet he could wrap this one up in one sentence and post of the "other side" and get the respect of the "hallowed ones"

« **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:40:05 pm »

Steve you had any of my emails last few days re those T&C's for hiring?

« **Reply #16 on:** October 10, 2007, 08:57:30 pm »

Quote from: Pete (ex lands) on October 10, 2007, 08:40:05 pm

Steve you had any of my emails last few days re those T&C's for hiring?

No

« **Reply #17 on:** October 10, 2007, 09:01:22 pm »

I pre vac and aggitate but I always rinse with hot water because it rinses better.Think about this, if you do a rinse with just plain water surely hot water will rinse better than cold water also part of the clean is the drying and as hot water evaporates quicker and as hot water is more active you will use less and have quicker drying items.

The downside of heat is in the wrong hands it can be leathal and that is one of things that cold water cleaners are playing on.

I'd hate to be at that cross roads where you saw a carpet and you thought to yourself is it dirty or is it a bit more? then clean it with cold water and find out you needed the heat. In our business consistancy is the key word, consistancy of clean, consistancy of marketing, consistancy of turning up on time etc.

Shaun

The consistancy of being careful is another and as professionals we should always have this in mind.

« **Reply #18 on:** October 10, 2007, 09:11:10 pm »

Quote from: Steve Gunn on October 10, 2007, 07:34:58 pm

Do you bathe in cold water.This has been done before obviously their machine does not have a heater so they brainwash people into thinking cold water is better

I agree with this comment, you get better results washing dirty hands in warm water than cold, that is a fact.

Phil

« **Reply #19 on:** October 10, 2007, 09:15:26 pm »

Problems with my outbox. Basically the T&C's he had were just about returning machine in condition it was hired and I guessed you wanted more stuff based around "we don't accept responsibility for damage to carpets etc."

Pete

« **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2007, 09:15:46 pm »

Shauns last post got me a bit worried . can a lot of damage be caused by using too much heat on carpets.

« **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2007, 09:19:57 pm »

Yes john, especially on synthetics. Wool takes a lot of heat. I did a tight weave loop pile which as you know is damaging to agitate too aggressively so I turned my heating element up to 85 centigrade and that did the job. Would never do that on nylon or polyprop.

Pete

« **Reply #22 on:** October 10, 2007, 09:27:14 pm »

Worried why?

Common sense says you wouldn't put a steam iron to your carpets,would you?
Some cleaners with their politics will say that steam can damage carpets but who cleans with steam? hot water yes steam no! with my TM it looks as though steam comes from the wand but it is just vapour over spray, I have never damaged a carpet yet in 20 years.

How do you kill dustmites? the experts say hot water, will cold water kill them? or with cold water do you have to introduce more chemical? how well does it really rinse out? Derek Bolton says he would happily swap his piled fabric cleaned for flat weaves as he is never sure what has been rinsed out!

What is in the carpet? well to start with there's sand and grit, oils and then the sticky stuffs like dirt from your hands may be sweat or newspaper print also I read a report some years ago that carsinogens from vehicle fumes that you bring in with your clothes are present, which would you rinse your carpet with HOT or COLD?

Shaun

« **Reply #23 on:** October 10, 2007, 09:42:21 pm »

Quote from: John Gregory on October 10, 2007, 09:15:46 pm

Shauns last post got me a bit worried . can a lot of damage be caused by using too much heat on carpets.

You must consider not only the colorfastness of the fabric, but also how delicate it is. Some fibers and weaves weaken with heat, and a combination of heat and agitation may cause damage. Velvet weaves and flocked materials are prime examples.

Many natural fibers need to be cleaned with a lower temperature.

Cut pile fabrics are more sensitive to higher temperatures. If the simple movement of your cleaning tool leaves jet marks, heated water can increase the marks and be difficult to remove.

Search www.cleanprosonline.com
.

« **Reply #24 on:** October 10, 2007, 10:21:55 pm »

Its just common sence.

There is anoher thread about this on another board stating that cold water gets better or same results :

Just try this one at home yourselves. Go out in the garden and spend 3 minutes rolling your hands in mud and crap,then go in and wash them in soap and cold water.

Do the same experiment using hot water.

Which cleans quicker and better, and which feels better,and which do you feel removes more germs.

Forget the bolloccks on other forums and let common sence provaile.

« **Reply #25 on:** October 10, 2007, 10:31:40 pm »

Let's not get to scientific about this.
The NHS has informed me that although Hot Water Extraction or Cold Water Extraction, Truckmount or Portable, Encap or LM, all make carpets look very clean - under the microscope things don't look to rosy. Hence they prefer not to carpet their operating theatres

« **Reply #26 on:** October 10, 2007, 10:36:47 pm »

Hi Guys

There are several advantages of using hot water , most linked to the greater energy which those molecules will have .

This speeds penetration. drying, solubility etc.

It is common sense really , imagine a moecules of water moving twice as quickly as cooler ones , which do you think would react quickest.

I will put together a more comprehensive answer when time allows, perhaps Graeme Thurston could give us some of his knowledge.

Cheers

Doug

P.S Do you think Proctor and Gamble are going to recommend cold water be used with their washing powders.?

« **Reply #27 on:** October 10, 2007, 10:39:52 pm »

Your the man Doug. Science is key and thats what drives our performance.

« **Reply #28 on:** October 10, 2007, 11:03:46 pm »

Quote from: elliott cleaning on October 10, 2007, 10:31:40 pm

Let's not get to scientific about this.
The NHS has informed me that although Hot Water Extraction or Cold Water Extraction, Truckmount or Portable, Encap or LM, all make carpets look very clean - under the microscope things don't look to rosy. Hence they prefer not to carpet their operating theatres

You cant compare a hospital theatre to a house lounge :

Hospitals need to be sterile.
House carpets just need to be cleaned and look clean.
Once a carpet has been correctly cleaned it will become unsterile the moment it is walked upon, but it terms of visual clean it will still look clean.

We walk on our carpets, we dont eat off them or operate on them. Well not all the time

« **Reply #29 on:** October 11, 2007, 07:46:51 am »

I did (a very unscientific) a little test a while ago when this subject raised its head.
I got 2 Polyprop tiles, poured 1 litre of cold water onto one and a litre of hot water on the other.
The cold water ran all over the tile and off the edges.
The hot water went straight into the fibres and left a wet patch about 8 inchs across.
Two things struck me, obviously the hot water pentrates easier. But does this mean the cold water could give a better surface clean without pentrating deeper down.

« **Reply #30 on:** October 11, 2007, 07:54:50 am »

Hi Guys

On the question of Science we can look at the energy of a clean.

Energy is avaialable in lots of different forms, heat , light, mechanical, electrical etc

If we use the standard carpet clean i.e pre vac, pre spray, extract with hot cleaning solution we are using X energy

Alternatively try the 'new' method, pre vac, pre spray, mechanically agitate , extract cold water.Now depending on how much agitation then this will use more , the same or less energy.

So basically the heat is being replaced with mechanical energy .

The biggest drawbacks in my view to the latter are the increased time, remember not much use saving 50p on Chems when you spend an extra half an hour agitating and just as importantly the inability of maechanical agitation to make up for the sheer cleaning power of heat.

Cheers

Doug

« **Reply #31 on:** October 11, 2007, 07:59:51 am »

Hi John,

Hot water has a lower surafce tension so will wet out better than cold water.

As for cold water giving a less penetrative clean, then yes this will happen assuming everything else is the same.

Cheers

Dpog

« **Reply #32 on:** October 11, 2007, 10:12:22 am »

As I understood the cleaning pie hot water was one of the components. If you had less of one you needed more of another.

I thought this was part of Carpet Cleaning Exams but Ken is higher in the industry standards, exams,etc Perhaps there is an as Ken puts Eco cleaning section now.

My experience when I clean a Car in Cold water or a van when it is duty is rubbish , even if I add extra shampoo.

Sometimes when you do rentals you only have cold water and I find the results harder to obtain with convential cleaning products.

I do not use Mpower or Nemisis so have always refrained from passing comment.

Perhaps one day I will invest £70 as this industry does not appear to be like the record industry or book industry where editors get samplers .

« **Reply #33 on:** October 11, 2007, 12:41:40 pm »

i have used one-step, rotowash for aggitation, then cold water rinse, on rental properties, because no hot water was available, and the owners were delighted, which at the end of the day is the main objective.

« **Reply #34 on:** October 11, 2007, 12:47:06 pm »

Traditionally, nine times out of ten, hot water cleaning will be better than cold water cleaning. Some new solutions are efective at lower temperatures.

Some, not all, are confusing cold water cleaning with cold water rinsing.

MS's, suitably agitated, will have sheared the soil from the yarn bundle and, theoretically, will not reattach even when drying. Cold water rinsing performs admirably in these conditions. Other factors that we have not discussed here are things like tool design and machine performance. But this will really complicate the debate.

Safe and happy cleaning

Ken

« **Reply #35 on:** October 11, 2007, 02:33:39 pm »

Its clear to see you can get the same results using cold, I have for years now, some may find it takes longer if like Doug says your adding agitation to make up for heat. But I would say adding mechanical agitation produces a better clean regardless of hot or cold as your mixing the pre-spray into all the fibres.

As for the energy of heat, yea hot water molecules move faster etc but the reason you cant compare carpet cleaning to washing your hands or laundry is simple, the water comes out the wand and hits the carpet for a second at most, there is no time for the heat to do much, the main energy is kinetic - the speed of the water hitting the carpet is the biggest factor.

I agree with uncle Ken though, the way you approach the clean is different, but with continued practise the time scale evens out.

« **Reply #36 on:** October 11, 2007, 06:09:02 pm »

Quote from: Mark Roberts on October 11, 2007, 02:33:39 pm

As for the energy of heat, yea hot water molecules move faster etc but the reason you cant compare carpet cleaning to washing your hands or laundry is simple, the water comes out the wand and hits the carpet for a second at most, there is no time for the heat to do much, the main energy is kinetic - the speed of the water hitting the carpet is the biggest factor.

Mark your right in one respect.If you were to wash your car with a hose on the garden tap,then you will get some pressure and remove a fair bit of the muck.But if you use a jet from the garage it will blast more muck off than the garden hose,so pressure is important.
Where your wrong is on the haet factor and from experience I use to own a valet centre with a number of hand jet washes the best was the diesel jet that produced hot water as the oter 2 were cold water jets. You would notice the difference when you steamed the engines,you would spray a chemical on first very similar to prespraying your carpet ( but a much stronger chemical) then you would have to give it 10 mins dwell time, then you would jet it off and the engines looked like new again.
The really old dirty engines would not come up very clean with the cold water jets but soon as you put the hot water jets on it ripped all the poop off straight away.
So yes heat plays a big part in cleaning.
With regards to low soiled carpets cold water would be suffice but on dirty,oily carpets you need plenty of hear.

« **Reply #37 on:** October 11, 2007, 06:11:31 pm »

Hi Mark

If the main energy was kinetic then there would be little point in heating the water.

I have done lots of skanky carpets this week and heat has been the a big factor in getting a quality finish.

Cheers

Doug

« **Reply #38 on:** October 11, 2007, 06:18:48 pm »

I see on another forum :

they are starting to stand down on the cold water clean.
Some chemicals will work ok with cold water fact.
But all chemicals work better with hot water fact.

« **Reply #39 on:** October 12, 2007, 10:19:30 am »

am i missing somthin here the or is it just that you dont like sombody
? seems more like sower grapes to me

« **Reply #40 on:** October 12, 2007, 10:33:37 am »

My Question was to find out information, but I did not post on Ctalk because well you cant be negative or question certain idea's can you.

I wanted coments from people like Doug Holloway who knows what he is talking about when it comes to the Chemistry of this industry.

« **Reply #41 on:** October 12, 2007, 05:08:12 pm »

Hi Guys

I do think it is very important that we appreciate our customers are not stupid and in fact especially the women and some modern men, will know a fair bit about cleaning.

They will know from experience the difference heat makes in the cleaning process and us so called experts have to be vary careful if we go against accepted wisdom.

It is equally important that newer CC's are not confused by marketing spin being put forward as science, an experienced CC like Ken can achieve good results with a whole manner of different chems and processes but for the less experienced heat is very important in achieving a quality result.

Over the past few years I have cleaned quite a few suites for new CC's who didn't fancy them or had poor results in the past. When speaking to them it was apparent they were worried about using hot water which is why they were getting poor results.

There are many different suppliers of chems and machines and all have their own angles and marketing but I believe a CC forum should cut through the spin and be more science based so that we build knowledge of what is going on , thereby allowing us to make informed decisions.

Knowledge is power.

Cheers

Doug

« **Reply #42 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:19:32 pm »

Can one of the experts confirm something for me then please.

Is what you are saying then, is that it is impossible to clean using cold water and achieve a result equal to that of hot water cleaning?

« **Reply #43 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:22:20 pm »

not impossible Keith (as Ken Wainrights thread suggests) just more difficult.

« **Reply #44 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:35:58 pm »

It depends whether you use detergent-in -the -tank or microsplitter-plain-water-rinse systems.

Trevor

« **Reply #45 on:** October 12, 2007, 07:20:23 pm »

Keith you can certainly clean with cold water,but to a standard.

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