[Fox]

Maybe I've got PMT!  But I am sick of the fly by night people who I see on all of the forums saying they can do this and that!

Sometimes I feel like the people who post want us (as in experienced frequent posters) to give all of the answers and run everything for them!  

I have been in this business now for over 8 years and have come across most situations, I have had to source information from certain governing bodies or learn by fault.

To the newbies - do you rely on forums and the internet to get your info or do you use other agencies to source this?

To the oldies - (us who know :) are you happy giving info out when we have had to do it the hard way?

Fox

[George-Reid]

Fox.
I am not sure I ever had such basic questions as I see here, having had a fire and flood restoration company, Contract cleaning business including window cleaning, domestic maid service, specialist car valeting all of which I built up and sold on successfully to concentrate on my present business, I feel I have a lot to offer but people do need to help them selves I have only had broadband for six months so only since them have felt justified in spending time on forums such as these I am sure It would have helped me a lot in the early stages of these businesses.

But business is the key word as the list above I have cleaned carpets eliminated soot damage emptied bins in offices washed cars etc, But I never felt I was a carpet cleaner, restoration technician, commercial cleaner, maid etc. I was someone running a business.

I do not believe that just because you start a business you have the right to success. If you have not done the business plan marketing plan etc I in fact believe the opposite. These things should be in place before you ask the basic questions you see here.

I do cherry pick my answers and will read posts from some before others and tend to PM where appropriate.

I also don't respond if I have nothing to add as per your polished floor I would want to help but don't know the answer.

OK back to work now.

Cheers

George

[domestic.diva]

Hi Fox

I understand your frustrations as I am Newbie but I hope to input more in the future as yes being new I am taking a fair bit from others.  I have to say I do find the Forum helpful, going from working for someone else to yourself if very daunting, this Forum has been a bonus in the support area.

Now I am a regular reader and brain picker, I see that Newbies have to give as well, obviously contributing valid information but none the less be part of it.  To post once and expect answers is madness!!! Also it helps when people reveal more of themselves like location, website, etc so we know who we are speaking to.  I have tried to be more open.

Like your other post said people just need to realise it is more than rocking up with the Mr Sheen.  I am constantly on the go with research, getting advice from other areas and planning like mad, I want my business to be a success and this is the only way!  It is darn hard work but enjoyable!

Best of luck to those starting off, don't forget with everything in life, you get out what you put in!!! I appreciate all the help from you all so far.

Bev  

[replacement]

Alot of people need to help themselves abit more i must say. I would say 80% of questions have been answered before on threads within this forum but they have not looked the answer up. I also like to see information in peoples profile's more ie location etc etc then i might tend to help more.

But then saying that we where all new once and it dont hurt anyone to learn from you own mistakes, as when it costs you money in replaceing something or loss of earns you soon learn your own mistakes.

Justin

[Len Gribble]

Fox

I know every thing but know nothing! I learn every day, regarding helping others I haven’t a problem but I need all the facts. A bit of dialectic

Like Justin I do like to see profile filled in a word credibility comes in to play!

Len

[martin19842]

the forum is here, you make a choice as to whether to contribute to it,  the internet is really just a development, of networking.

rewind the tape a few years and this was done by face to face meetings, or chats with someone possibly over a drink.

that is the only thing that is really different.

ive been in commercial cleaning for seven years, and have recently gone self employed, but have also run another company some 16 years ago.

therfore i know how difficult it is to do it,  and therefore if i feel like replying to a question or a post then i make that choice.  if you are replying to the same things all the time, then i tend to get a little frustrated.

regards

martin

[domestic.diva]

I trawled through as many old posts as possible but sometimes the questions that needs to be asked can bring different answers if posed again, though as I said you only get out what you put in.

Those that come on as guests should consider signing up and becoming a regular, the more brains the better we will be! Plus you are more likely to build up some trust and respect from other posters, gaining more and giving more.  Help, does this sound a bit group huggish!!! Sorry!!!!

Bev

[Philip Hanson]

What gets my goat is when newbies come along and do one-liners saying things like:

"How do I get contracts?"

and then moan when no-one replies.

If this is you, you should do 2 things:

1) As justin very rightly says, research the older topics, most of the hard questions have already been answered there.

2) Make more effort yourself.  Ask specific questions, explain what you have already tried, exactly what you are trying to do, what you need to know.

Most folks here are willing to share their knowledge and experience for no personal gain.  But you have to put some effort in yourself too.

And if, like some, you dont get answers to your question and go away and slag off this site on another forum, then dont expect any help at all in future.

-Philip

[Fox]

Hi all thanks for your comments

Maybe I wasn't that PMTishafterall!  I do feel that people should help themselves more but the nail was hit on the head when it was said we choose what to answer.

The only prob with that I have is that in some respects I can be a softy and find myself giving info that I have fought hard to learn (and I really mean that!) only to find the person has disappeared after a short while.

I don't often post a query (polished floors recently) and as george said it would have got answers if people knew - I was grateful for matins answer and had a call giving excellent advice which is now in practice.

This "maybe" post was nothing to do that though.  I just thought that all the topics that came up of late were from newbies wanting more help than were good for themselves.  

Yes we have got to learn from somewhere but are we really helping?  I reckon sometimes we make it to easy!

Just my opinion - yet again

Fox  

[martin19842]

i think the best way to learn it to turn up on site on day one or evening one,

wow, is that a wake up call, i did an initial clean on an estate agents in Hampstead, once and i was the area manager, 3 hours of sweat on a tuesday night after starting at 6.00am that mornig.

its alright reading the instructions, but hands on is always best.

have a good day

regards

martin

[heritagecleaning]

Fox

I suppose, in theory, every time we give information away we are raising the level of awareness of other cleaners and, in a broad sense, decreasing our own competitive advantage.

I know how you feel....I learned a lot of what I know through failiure and financial loss. I know others here did too. We didn't have an 'internet' back then!

Owen

[galecleaning]

Hi

I am a 'newbie' and, I suppose, one of the people who don't contribute much as yet.  I started my company in 1990 and then, after 7 years, allowed my partner in as co-director.  It didn't work out and now the company is back in my sole name.  I find it both exhilerating and frightening and was, therefore, pleased to find this forum.  I feel I do need help in lots of areas as keeping up with technology/cleaning issues can be hard to do.  Now that the business is in my sole name again, it feels like I am starting again and although I have lots of small clients, I would like to get into larger cleaning contracts and I really need help with how to do tenders, etc. which will appeal to these clients.  I cannot afford to be paying a lot of money to marketing companies and I wondered if anyone knew of a site where I could get some help with this so I posted this on the site.  

Hopefully in the future I will be able to contribute more to the forum.  I do know a lot about the problems that we self-employed people face with VAT, tax, staff, etc. - maybe I need to be a little more confident in my dealings with people.

Its been interesting reading so far!


Jan

[Ian Gourlay]

I may have asked this before but Fox , George, and Len , howdid you firdt get into cleaning.

Did you work for a cleaning company ?

Or did you jump in and learn as you go.?

[Ian Gourlay]

I should have said I am in the learn as I go cateogry.

Although did employ cleaners in retail stores I ran before switching to contractors to get the cleaners off my wage costs and onto my premises cost.

And it cost more bit like PFIs

However I do try to find appropriate courses.

In Carpet Cleaning and now Window Cleaning there are such courses that cover Marketing Priceing etc but have not found any for Contract Cleaning and Maid Services apart from CDs on Ebay

[Len Gribble]

Ian

Never shy in coming forwards! Prior worked for a bank. Brought into a franchise the biggest rip off there is £££’s you lose! Professional training by them not sure if they knew one end of a broom from the other, problem here you needed a catch mop, a very fast leaner also the customer learnt fast!

Believe BIC’s do courses in cleaning one dose not have to become a member.

Regarding pricing don’t think a lot of difference between cc and stain removal you want more that’s extra!

Len

[Fox]

Ian

Believe it or not I worked with mental health for many years!  I then had an opportunity to set up a new company in domicillary care for a guy who was already running a domestic and commercial cleaning company.

I obviously learnt about all aspects of the cleaning industry while I set up and ran the domicillary.

The rest was sheer hard work, determination and lots of problems!

Fox  

[George-Reid]

Ian
17 years oil field trash and proud of it.
I left Halliburton as Maintenance Manager for France and Africa after they transfered me to head office in London.
Halliburton spent a fortune on me very little of which I was able to use in my day to day but came in very useful when I went on my own.

I then had a Rainbow franchise for a number of years before going it alone.

Cheers

George

[Ian Gourlay]

Fox if you worked in Mental Health you must have been very patient and understanding.

Regretably my wife had a complete breakdown two years ago and I now treat people who work in that field with great respect.

[DP]

Just trawling and come across this one, not been up for a while.

I think most people are willing to help others who have tried to help themselves. I don’t normally worry about area or competition, I think people worry about competition far too much, after all those who are fit to compete with you are hardly likely to ask newbie type questions on here and besides I think we can be slightly arrogant  in our views of self importance and how much of the market we control. I suppose self preservation is part of human nature though.

I also hate someone that can only post an answer providing they sell something, fortunately we only had one serious culprit who apparently contracted a serious case of rectal retention and migrated to another forum, I understand he is doing much better there. I wonder why.

What I can understand is the reluctance to pass on information that we have paid money for in respect of training and secrets that have been acquired over many years of experience, then the "why should I" bit creeps in I guess.

It doesn’t help when people almost demand info and ask silly questions like "how do I start a cleaning business" which I received in a PM from someone I had never seen on here before a little while ago.

The one thing I never understood is why some people need self justification to be able to answer such as "I have gained a lot from this industry so I don’t mind giving something back" Well so have I but I'm not giving nothing back, I just answer when I can because I want to, its much nicer.

Fox - "Mental Health" that explains a lot  

Domestic.deva - you and Petra  seem to have an identical history with the exception of the inexperience what are the chances of that! Hope you do well all the same  

Justin - Sort that other lot out about the advertising, nobody believes the "oops we just didn’t see that particular advert this time thing" someone might think that you are all corruptible over there?

[martin19842]

thats a balanced and reasoned response in my opinion, i think there is more than enough business out there to keep most people busy, at whatever level they are trading at.

regards

martin

[Timmy Boy]

Fox,
I am but a fledgling to this industry, and sure,  I could do with help on things.
I have already got the feeling from my father in law (been in the cleaning biz for 25+ years) that he does not want to give too many 'trade secrets' away. However as my business has grown he has mellowed a bit and gives me snippets which I greatfully receive.
I appreciate that my father in law may well know secrets to cleaning issues but by contrast I know more about employment law, management & Health & safety than he does and am always happy to help him out as much as I can.
I really do think that if you work hard you will get what you want. After all a question on which chemical to use on a floor will not win you a contract - you will need good references, a good price, a good sales banta and accept if your cleaner calls in sick the buck stops with you!!

I think what I am trying to say is if this forum exsisted when you were newbie age, you would be on it asking newbie questions
Regards
Tim

[PPC]

Gentleman,
                 As you can probably see from my number of posts to date on these forums - I can be considered a forum 'newbie'.

Even though i can see the overall point concerning, what i would call, 'lazy posts'. I would suggest that it is a relatively small number of such individuals 'leeching' information in this fashion.

I, like many of my industry collegues, have made my fair share of financial and business errors in the past. However, i do not suppose for 1 second that we all wouldn't have preferred the chance to avoid them if a forum like this was around at the time.

Nevertheless, in my short time on these forums i have read a vast proportion of posts on many interesting topics. It is a credit to those like Fox, Mr Ruggles and Mr Hanson (none of which i know personally)and a great many others i see regularly offer their experience to other less established indivduals. Without such contributions it is unlikely this forum would function at all.

I can see that from some of the posts on this topic that the general consensus leans more towards the unbridled 'leeching' of ideas, equipment function or procedures.However, i see this a little differently- perhaps the best reason of all to share such information willingly is that these frequent conversations can build strong business correspondences and possible collaboration in the future. I for one, am pleased to see that the site is mostly proliferated by business professionals, and people that aspire to be successful in our field.

It is clear to me that such sites and forums that contain a wealth of information as this benefit us all (agreed some more than others), and it is reasonable to assume that as our industry goes through inevitable improved changes - we all at some point or another will be glad of a place to overcome any business issues or hudles we may encounter without 'learning the hard -EXPENSIVE' way.

Cheer up Fox it's not all 1 way traffic

Respectfully

Gary Hennell

Pinnacle Professional Cleaning Ltd

[Timmy Boy]

Nice one Gary, that is what I was trying to say but I realised early on in my origional posting that I was slowly disappearing up my own preverbial!!
Regards

Tim

[Fox]

Hi guys

I hear what you are saying but with respect - do we really help by answering such basic questions that are sometimes posted.  Yes I am sure we would all rather avoid making 'expensive' mistakes, however I do believe there are mistakes that people 'need' to make in order to learn.

Perhaps it's the type of industry that we are in that attracts people with no prior knowledge of business - after all - anyone can clean - can't they?  

My real gripe is putting time and effort into helping someone only to find it is not only the question they posted they know nothing or little about but running a business as a whole.  Yes we all had to start somewhere and a forum for me in the beginning would have been a useful tool, but I am certain I would not have used it as some do.

At the end of the day it is the individuals choice whether to answer a question or not but it really exasperates me to see some of the posts especially when the poster has the bare faced cheek to come back and moan that no one will help!

Example - how would you view someone who came up to you at a parents evening at school and said ' I wonder if you can help?  I know I have 4 children but could you explain where I'm going wrong, how did I get them?' !

Fox
PS:  Oh yeah DP -

Fox - "Mental Health" that explains a lot  

your comment has been noted       lol

[PPC]

Fox,
      I realise that we may have different perspectives but this comment here:

[Perhaps it's the type of industry that we are in that attracts people with no prior knowledge of business - after all - anyone can clean - can't they?]

Makes you sound incredibly aloof and condescending towards cleaners in general.

Perhaps you are angry at ppl that do not have business accumen, but that does not mean that our 'type of industry' has any more than another!

What about rogue traders - you must have seen the sheer number of builders, carpenters, plumbers, electricians that pretend to be qualified fitters. I would suggest that there are more 'iffy' opertors in the construction industry and its associated trades than in any other - including w/cleaning. None of them appear to have any form of business accumen and i doubt such types would even introduce themselves to forums for improving their service or knowledge.

Regretfully i disagree with your whole arguement and find its content a little small minded.

'Anyone can clean'  -  To use an analogy as u have:

We can all kick a ball but how many of us get paid £100,000 a week to do it?

Just because you can do a job/service doesnt make you any damn good at it does it?

I realise that you have made some 293 posts while i have not. Consequently, i conceed that you are probably speaking from your experience where as i cannot draw on that at this point.

Nevertheless, I am a ppl person and find those that ask questions will succeed, where as those that are to stubborn or proud to ask will not.

They will make all the mistakes - lose the contacts and the money but feel incredibly pleased they 'learned' during the process.

I doubt many millionaires would share your sentiments!!

Gary Hennell

Pinnacle Professional Cleaning Ltd

[Musicman]

Gary, when Fox said "anyone can clean - can't they?", she was being ironic.

[Len Gribble]

Gary

What’s PPL?

Quantify this and reply to this thread and this person a business person/cleaner? Nothing has been changed cut and pasted.

Just been asked to do a builders clean on 20 + new houses.  Never ventured into this area before as we've previously just concentrated on carpets, upholstery, windows and some small scale office cleaning.

I'm not going to turn it down, but I'm curious as to what's normally expected and what prices do people charge?   As far as I can gather they are all 3 or 4 bedroom detatched properties.

Also any specialist gear thats required.

Prompt replies would be appreciated as I'm off to price the job on Monday, I don't want to scare them off, or worse still, leave myself working all week for nothing.

Cheers

I think this is what Fox means could be wrong don’t think so!

By the way am no longer in commercial cleaning, you don’t wont to know my views on quality of staff = no supervision = customer wont pay for it.

Len

[PPC]

Lo Len,
            PPL - wait for it    = People  LOL.

Lazy typing, i was tryin to save energy  

And i have read that post and i did grin in thought of Fox after seeing it.

So much for us newbies using the search button.

Anyhow, i wanted to make the point that not all newcomers should be branded identically. Some of us are more genuine in our intentions than others.

As for helping this guy Len:

What he is asking is unlikely to provoke a response from anyone. Not only is he a one man band, he has no equipment, probably no CIS certificate and whilst i believe he does genuinely want the contract, it is impossible to apply a quotation when he hasn't even visited the site to be sure of his obligations or H&S requirements.

It's more of a post in hope than need!!

Like i said some do 'leech' others ask specific questions to genuine problems or hurdles. There is a difference.

Like u guys i have answered posts on other forums when the questions have been specific and relevant.

However if this poor soul is to be used as a yardstick for the type of questions Fox refers too. Me answering it does not detract from my arguement that there is nothing wrong with asking questions.

Just be specific in what you ask if you expect a helpful response.

Gary Hennell

Pinnacle Professional Cleaning Ltd

[Fox]

PPL - psychological pettifogging lunatic - maybe  

Gary - Can't wait to see your replies to all the questions which come from our future millionaires!

[PPC]

And i hope the first is you madam  

[Len Gribble]

Gary

I agree.

Fox

You mean to tell some on this forum haven’t reached £100k a year = millionaires as defined by the banks.

Len