[jr windows]

Does anyone use Brodex 3G? I have spoken to them today and they have offered it me at £33.00 per week plus vat over 3 years. This equals £6000.00 approx in total. Is this a good deal?

I am on a Merlin at the moment and looking for a new system.

Any advice, pros/cons etc. Regards, Jason

[[GQC] Tim]

You don't need that in all honesty. And £6000?    lol

Give Andrew a ring at Purefreedom. Their systems are all you need, engineered to a very high standard, and fantastic prices, and supergood aftermarket service.

http://www.purefreedom.co.uk/

40inch RO system Factory fitted for £1995. Done.

[eddie d]

6k is to much .
give freedom a call.

[windowwashers]

have to agree with the rest purefreedom 4040 system third of the price

[daniel b]

How long does it take to fill to the brim one of these 40 40 systems.

Thanks

[Alex Gardiner]

The 3G is a very nice machine and cannot really be compared to the likes of the purefreedom system shown. I would rate this system as one of the best on the WFP market today. It will fill at up to 400-500 litres per hour and has rock solid construction. Yes you are paying an extra £1700 for the privilege of leasing, but this does cover you for breakdowns and system maintenance.



However I would very much doubt that if you are working happily from a merlin based system that you really need such a beast. The purefreedom will provide between 100-250 litres per depending on water pressure which should be enough for most workers. The purefreedom system is well constructed for its class of machine and uses simple components that will last well. However if you do not want to stump up the £2000 up front then the 3G is an affordable monthly option.

[alanwilson]

good point alex - although they both perform the same basic functions (filter water, store, transport and pump) the 3g is really built for massive industrial type work, where operators will use 1000ltrs or more a day, 5/6 days a week - companies want machines that will not break down and require minimal maintainance, and if something does go wrong they want it fixed yesterday - thats why Brodex sell alot of machines.

having seen the 3G in the flesh I can assure you that it is a proper machine, not a collection of components - not in any way detracting from freedom or anyone else but seriously, these machines are the price they are for a reason.

[telboy]

I can vouch for the 3G had ours 2 1\2 yrs no problems at all 

Telboy

[Captain Scarlet]

Sorry if I sound cynical but its just an ibc tank ( baffled ) in a metal cage with standard pumps, good filters, varistream and some gauges. You could get the Purefreedom and add all the things that the Brodex has and still save money. Its not really like a car where things really do vary between manufacturer. The principle is very simple and even Ionics stick exactly the same pumps, flow controls, hose reels, hose fittings as any other decent system, Luke

[alanwilson]

no Luke its not

the tanks are preformed, the chassis for the tank is tested.

They are a really solid machine, autoflush etc, not aimed at domestic window cleaners or small operators - however for my money I would go for an E650 - tank safe system, all pipework and electrics contained inside the housing, recessed component panels, twin pump, twin controller, they look the business and save a lot of space.  Also because the components and plumbing/wires are all hidden then much neater than most systems.

I like them, especially the fact they are crash tested.

[Captain Scarlet]

I dont pretend to understand RO, as my tds is 24!!! But Im sure you can just get the Purefreedom without the filters and put similar filters as the Brodex? I agree Brodex fit the tanks well, but so do Purefreedom, Luke

[alanwilson]

I'm not saying purefreedom dont - I have recommended them several times on this forum.

Ok - what will last longer, an extender pole or a facelift?

[Captain Scarlet]

I dont really care which is best ( as I dont own either ot intend to buy either ) I was just been a cynic  I buy what I think is the best equipment for my business, that all I care about!

[alanwilson]

My point exactly - what is best for your business - downtime costs a lot more than a machine.

[Captain Scarlet]

I dont have any RO or anything and have never had downtime ( whats downtime! ) Luke

[alanwilson]

downtime - machine (or more importantly) staff not working due to broken pole/pump whatever.

imagine you are a big business employing quite a few staff - without the manual operators working you risk losing a £15k contract, you still have to pay the staff (£100's per week each), staff in the office, insurances etc - so the only way to keep going is to have the staff working constantly.  1 lost day to most wc'ers might mean £150/£200 but with the chance to catch up the next day. To a big company it could be worth £1000.

So you see, having to pay £2k more for a machine is really nothing to them as long as they get a reliable machine and a replacement machine immediately - thats what Brodex do.

[Captain Scarlet]

Alan, I was joking. I know what downtime is, Ive just never had to experience it

whats downtime!

LOL Luke

[[GQC] Tim]

Alan, pure water is pure water. Purefreedom is the same system as you see there basically, just add a second 4040, the rest is just gizmo's that you do not need. Their cage is designed by engineers aswell.

Pure water to good pole and brush and your cleaning windows.

The downtime comment is just unnecessary, a good system won't have any downtime. Downtime is usually by ignorance of the user and not of the system.

[alanwilson]

no the downtime comment is not unnecessary.

someone running a business turning over a million pounds a year or more isn't interested in saving 2k if it means if the machine fails they are going to lose more time than is necessary.

the facts speak for themselves, Brodex sell a lot of machines, the comapnies buying them are usually quite big, and they haven't got big by being stupid with their money.

[jr windows]

Thanks for all your replies.....

The only reason I am changing is because of the amount of re-fill time and the amount of water I waste. Also, I have just won a contract to clean over 13,000 windows in 5 cleans.

Cheers again, Jason.

[[GQC] Tim]

no the downtime comment is not unnecessary.

someone running a business turning over a million pounds a year or more isn't interested in saving 2k if it means if the machine fails they are going to lose more time than is necessary.

the facts speak for themselves, Brodex sell a lot of machines, the comapnies buying them are usually quite big, and they haven't got big by being stupid with their money.

I bet you are running an Ionics system and don't know anything about how it works. Am I right?

Reason I'm saying it that a machine doesn't just 'fail'.

[Wayne Thomas]

Luke's comment about Ionics hosereel being the same as all the others is rubbish. Ionics one is stainless steel, larger diameter, easier to reel in. Yes it costs nearly £300 incl VAT & postage but worth the money. Wouldn't waste my money on the other ones as he calls them as IMO they are **** (not swearing). My point being...two similar products are NOT identical, far from it.

[Captain Scarlet]

Just had a look in my Ionic catalogue:



They have a metal one and a plastic one, not too disimilar from my one



The metal one has plastic wheels, mine is metal with plastic wheels too.

On the Ionics home page they have a picture containing their plastic one which I wouldnt ever use, yet they actively promote this product. My hosreel ( I have 2 of them ) is brilliant.

http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/index.html



Luke

[[GQC] Tim]

Industrial made products should be of better quality.
They would have had more money invested in there design (R&D)

The companies that manufacture and sell these are mostly organised
to deal with other firms that are just as big if not biggar than they are.

So although diy wfp systems can do the same job and may be just as reliable
they are not as refined. By default not as good.

Ewan 

Your joking I hope. So just because it isn't pretty, or as 'refined', is isn't as good by default?

[Captain Scarlet]

Im not arguing if DIY is better than a FITTED system, my own system is FITTED. I just think Ionics are a rip off and so are some Brodex products. Well actually rip off is the wrong term as the buyer knows full well what their getting. Luke

[[GQC] Tim]

Im not arguing if DIY is better than a FITTED system, my own system is FITTED. I just think Ionics are a rip off and so are some Brodex products. Well actually rip off is the wrong term as the buyer knows full well what their getting. Luke

I'm not a fan of DIY fitting at all, but buy a good tank cage, get it professionally fitted, and the rest you can do yourself, with zero problems. Even in the unlikely even that your pump dies, you can just get another one easily, and mount it. What on earth is it with people and paying £6k or more for a system that can be done for a stupid amount less.

Now you tell me, what else can go wrong on a system. Unless your a noob, that's about it. Oh dear, a hoseconnector goes, let's get an instant replacement from Ionics. lol 

[Captain Scarlet]

What it really comes down to is what you can do with your system ( Ionics or not ) But in my case there is nothing an Ionics system has that my system doesnt. Or can do better than mine. There is simply nothing. Yet I could have spent 3-4 times more on their system.

[jr windows]

Hi Ruperthehair,

What system do you have ?

[[GQC] Tim]

I would still choose my own system, without doubt. Or a Purefreedom system, I don't like to depend on Ionics for all my spare parts like filters etc.

As for looks, I do like the way Ionic systems look, but I very much like the see what you get look from Purefreedom aswell.

(Don't mean to be offending to anyone who has a Ionics system or Brodex, but I've got strong opinions on this. )

[Captain Scarlet]

I have the following system in my 2.0 Peugeot Expert HDI:

500ltr tank fitted into chassis, 100 psi shurlfo pump, Varistream, Battery, DI filtration ( TDS OF 24!! ), hosereels and 100m of 8mm microbore fitted with ez snap ends

My poles:

1 x 50ft Carbon Fibre Super-light 2
2 x 17ft Glass Fibre Xtels
1 x 25ft Aluminium Brodex Pro-long
1 x spare 18ft Brodex Predator

Brushes:

4x various vikan brushes
1 x Super-lite brush ( Bentley )
1 x Ionics dual trim brush

My trad stuff:

Pointer, ladders, step ladders, ladder mats, rojack, trad pole, scrapers, buckets, gg3, oil flo 141, microfibre swivel, squeegees etc

Other stuff:

I carry spares for some things, like a spare pump and other little things and some tools. I alos carry my tds meter and a bag of resin.

[jr windows]

I wish my tds was 24 never mind.

[Captain Scarlet]

if you was offered any free system on the market what would be your choice?

I would go for a Concept 2o heated di system. Not because its better than my system but because it looks nice!

[[GQC] Tim]

Hehe, yep, that's a very pretty system.   

I would add some blue neon tubes though, and some undervan lighting to complete the imagine, and some glow in the dark signwriting.

[[GQC] Tim]

I would still choose my own system, without doubt. Or a Purefreedom system, I don't like to depend on Ionics for all my spare parts like filters etc.

As for looks, I do like the way Ionic systems look, but I very much like the see what you get look from Purefreedom aswell.

(Don't mean to be offending to anyone who has a Ionics system or Brodex, but I've got strong opinions on this. )

Fair enough thats only your choice, but it's the industry that gives the real picture.
You cannot argue against that.

I think the small firms that make the diy systems, dream of being like the bigger one's!

Ewan 

I don't think they do, Purefreedom installs thousands of systems on a yearly basis. I don't think they have any intention to look like Ionics. And as for the industry giving the real picture, there are many who don't have a fancy system but still get around just fine. Probably much more then Ionics/Brodex/Concept2o/Omnipole.

[alanwilson]

GQC - no I don't run an Ionics system - and yes I probably know a lot more about how they work than you (Aeronautical Engineer thanks) so yes I understand quite easily how RO works, how the pumps work etc - its childs play.

I had my own systems designed specifically for my vans (my choice) by another Engineer, however if I owned a large firm, with a million pounds turnover or more then I would never contemplate anything other than Ionics or Brodex, the downtime factor is really important, as is the crash testing certificates.  You have to understand big business don't play about, they can't take the risk that comes with using smaller firms/ and or systems that haven't been crash tested etc.

why argue with me about this - the facts speak for themselves, I don't see the smaller wfp suppliers fitting systems into vans for OCS. 

Luke - you have a nice selection of poles - which one do you think will give least problems in time?  I'd say the prolong - it might not  be the nicest pole to work with but do you think the chief exec or whatever of OCS cares that you don't like it?  NO - all he cares about is you getting the job done and not suing his company for having the tank slap you in the back when you have an accident - well, either you or your family.

I tell you what, the next time you see an OCS van or the like cleaning windows go and have a look in the back of the van - I can promise you know its not going to be anything other than Brodex/Ionics?Tucker - I very much doubt even Concept 2o have ever fitted a system for any of the big players.

GQC - you really think that PureFreedom install thousands of systems every year?  You really haven't a clue do you?  I would reckon the figure to be closer to 250 at most.

rant over

[[GQC] Tim]

Alan, nice post, but still you didn't explain what you mean with 'downtime', you continue to speak about downtime, but realistically, when is that. And if your an Engineer then you would be able to spot the problem instantly wouldn't you? So would anyone who's got any knowledge about their system. I can understand big companies have employees that know nothing about it, and can't even be bothered to push a fitting on a again. If you mean downtime with that, I can totally understand. All the other windowcleaners will recognize a problem aswell when they see it.

Crashtest certificate is very good I agree. But only is proof that you'll be safe, ofcourse big companies look for that. But this was purely talking about a normal system for 99.8% of all window cleaners, and you don't need 6k for that. And if you get it installed right, there is no chance it will move in an accident, and for 99.8% of people the knowledge of that is good enough.

Ewan, I'm pro innovation, but having to spend 4k extra on a system that does exactly the same isn't innovation, that's a ripoff. But okay, it's fine for noobs I guess.

[jr windows]

As per Alex G earlier post, about fill up times and water waste. This effects all wc using wfp and the effects we have on the planet we live on. I don't have any problems with diy brodex or ionics I'm just thinking about the place my 14 month old daughter might be living in, in a few years? Off my environmental soapbox now, must be getting old!!!

[alanwilson]

GQC

1 - what I can spot is totally irrelevant - we are talking about firms with employees, guys who know nothing about how the systems work, probably don't know how to use it right either, they just know how to switch it on.

2 - Crash testing is mega important for the big firms, H+S is such a big issue for them, I doubt anyone of the big companies would entertain a machine that hasn't been crash tested.

Downtime, the time lost when an employee isn't working - lets say due to a faulty pump.

£6k might seem like a lot of money but to a firm employing staff it isn't a lot to pay for the peace of mind that comes with a factory fitted system.

[brightnclean]

You can make any system fill faster and give less waste water.

Just add another membrane and maybe boost water pressure if urs is a bit low. All pretty basic stuff really.

I have both Ionics and Freedom systems. The performance is exactly the same. The price isn't though

If I wanted to fill faster and have less waste I would simply add another 40 inch memrane.. run the waste from the first into the in on the second and cut down my waste to permeate ratio.

[alanwilson]

very true ewan


the real issue here is money

Big companies have lots of it - so its not an issue.

Peace of mind is an issue though, its important.

[[GQC] Tim]

At Alan, I agree with what you said there.

At Ewan, perhaps it is about money, but to put it in to perspective. Only a few companies have the luxury of spending whatever they want, the rest not, I was purely coming from the normal small business window cleaner's aspect. Think about what you can do with 4k, for something that (yes it does!) do exactly the same thing as a cheaper system. You can do literally everything you can with an Ionics system for 4k less. And if you doubt that, you can come round and show it to me.

Purify water, water through pump up through pole, brush window. Clean. 4 grand extra. Yea right.   

[[GQC] Tim]

Hey no problem Ewan, no offense taken whatsover, I'm sorry for coming over a bit strong in the opinions. 

[TennetClean]

I do not have an ionics system, i had mine built by an engineer and having discussed with him the ins and outs of having a machine in a van, the reason you pay more for ionics is SAFETY.

The engineer who designed mine made a big thing about safety in a crash, and said that while you can try and design all you like, you only ever know for sure if you are actually in a crash.

I want a new system soon, and to be honest I am a LOT more bothered about safety now than I was the first time around.  Having driven around for a good few years with a ton of machine behind me I have had plenty of occassions that have caused me to worry about my saftey in a crash.  As ionics systems are crash tested i have to say I will be leaning more towards them in the future.  Yes you pay more for that safety element but saving all the money in the world aint gonna do you much good if your are dead.

I seen the crash test videos on ionics website and when i done my bwca course, and no way will i be going anywhere near those systems that failed it and squashed the dummy, and correct me if i'm wrong but i think that was brodex.

I have seen how other wc have their systems fixed into their vans, especiallt diy jobbies.  Not having my usual go at diy here but honestly they are just not safe at all.  I seen one guy who had his 450litre tank wedged in with a bit of plywood.  totally unsafe.

Ionics may well cost a few more quid every month because they are crash tested safe but it is a small price to pay for peace of mind IMO.

[*foxman]

I tell you what, the next time you see an OCS van or the like cleaning windows go and have a look in the back of the van - I can promise you know its not going to be anything other than Brodex/Ionics?Tucker - I very much doubt even Concept 2o have ever fitted a system for any of the big players.

I wouldn't be to sure Alan, i know for a fact that the big boys (inc OCS) are moving away from those systems.

[TennetClean]

LOL if I know foxman the big boys will all be getting window cleaning warehouse gear, aint that right?  I'm sure craig21t and dd will soon be along to back up your arguments foxman.

[*foxman]

yup

[alanwilson]

Tennetclean - don't be sucked in by the BWCA nonsense - it was a brodex machine  - one that wasn't bolted in!!

If you ever get a chance to examine a brodex fitted machine you will see just how safe they are, equally as safe as Ionics.

Foxman - are you seriously suggesting that OCS or the like are going to risk it all for a couple of grand - hardly.

I know for a fact our own systems are very safe - how safe are your systems?

[eddie d]

i wouldnt rely on them just because ocs buy them .ocs have been known to brake H&S regs .

i use a brodex system and its good but it does brake down now and then .and brodex parts are expensive.
also the resin tubes on the 3g are a very bad design.if you do buy a 3g cxhange the resin tubes to upright ones .
good luck

[TennetClean]

How I love to be proved right.  Its not much of challenge on this forum though   Welcome back craig21t, but now I'm missing your mate dd.  Give him a prod will you, or better yet can we have another new one?  You could sign him up today and make his first post repeating exactly what foxman says again.

Alan, I'm interested by what you say.  I thought it was a brodex machine that failed the test but I couldnt exactly remember.  Not bolted in you say?  Hmmmmm interesting. 

One thing that the bloke on the course did say was that when they did the crash test the company who failed it threatened all kinds of legal action saying this and saying that etc, but then never did anything about it at all, not even so much as a solicitors letter.

I know one thing, if someone had deliberately made my gear look bad by cheating in a test I would be all over them with lawyers faster than they could blink.

[Captain Scarlet]

Tennet, this is old news. Its all been discussed before ages back. The test was unfair on Brodex. They hired a private detective to buy the Brodex machine and didnt have it fitted by Brodex themselves for the crash test, and apparently put it in a rusty floor, Luke

[*foxman]

One thing that the bloke on the course did say was that when they did the crash test the company who failed it threatened all kinds of legal action saying this and saying that etc, but then never did anything about it at all, not even so much as a solicitors letter.

And that proves what exactly??  Cause the guy on the course makes more money selling you a machine that teaching you to clean a window properly! 

[DASERVICES]

I tell you what, the next time you see an OCS van or the like cleaning windows go and have a look in the back of the van - I can promise you know its not going to be anything other than Brodex/Ionics?Tucker - I very much doubt even Concept 2o have ever fitted a system for any of the big players.

Alan,

You haven't looked into the back of multi nationals in Glasgow and Edinburgh, 2 x 650 l tanks only strapped down.

Totaly agree with you though any company employing someone has to take into consideration safety as any accident could cost them dear!!!