Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Losing faith in wfp, ?
« on: June 05, 2006, 07:58:41 pm »
I have had a few complaints over the last few days and one of them led to a cancellation.
 
Most of the complaints were aimed at my staff, In one instance 3 houses all next to each other all complained, I checked the windows and they were dreadful all full of runs and spots, they also went on to say the windows have never been right in the last 6 months, I have even cleaned these myself on occassions.
 
I think the trouble is the glass itself ,it looks greasy as you wet it going into millions of minute spots even after going back to correct the windows they were still the same.
 
Also today one of my neighbors cancelled saying her windows had never been right, so i knocked the next door and said can i see there windows, she said the same and sure enough there were a few spots some near the top and loads on the bottom 3 inches of the window.
 
Mt tds is zero and i think my technique is good,I have also attended the BWCA wfp course, Is it the case that some windows will just not come clean with wfp or am i doing something wrong.
 
I have been doing a lot of downstairs windows today and i checked them and they were perfect, Also i asked most today and they all said the windows were fine.
 
I think i am getting to the stage where the customers are starting to complain whereas previously they did not like to say anything.
 
I dont know weather to sack the staff and just go it alone on the houses where i definately know that wfp works.
 
So far i have had 6 complaints and one cancel all in the last week, previously no one has said a word.

I know Squeeky is going to have a field day now, but never mind
 
Dave 

pjulk

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2006, 08:04:20 pm »
I have a few houses that never come up well with WFP.
I ended going back to ladders for these.

Paul

sham33

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 08:06:22 pm »
Do you use a good flow rate? Also do the frames get a good clean on new cleans? I never get complaints though im sure i dont get every window perfect.

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2006, 08:06:48 pm »
Dave don't get disheartened you'll put me off changing over.

I would check the guy's other work, just to check its not him.

if thats ok then I would wait for some reply's, about the type of windows   it may be,like you said, it could be the windows them self's, aspecially if there all in the same area, and all fitted by the same builder.

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2006, 08:07:51 pm »
David,

Don't lose faith, the system works and it will paid for itself 10 times over.

From what you have written I think your problem is more to do with your operatives than your set up.

I have guy's working for me and we have a golden rule. If a customer complains and the work is not up to scratch the guy's responsible call back after working hours and re-clean for free. If they have more than 1 reclean a week then they pay the cost of the clean out of their wages.

Some may say this is harsh but I have to say I get probably 2 recleans a month and mainly they are customers trying it on, in this case we don't reclean them.

Keep it going and dont lose faith, just tweak your operatives standards a bit more tightly and I reckon they will pay a bit more attention to the work required.

Best wishes,

Trev
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2006, 08:13:13 pm »
Hi David,

I know what it's like down 'ere in salty Cornwall.

Which brushes do you use and do you rinse on or off the glass?

Alex

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2006, 08:23:52 pm »
Keep the faith Dave mate.

I,ve taken around 150 houses from an outfit using WFP on a large estate near me.

In almost every case the customers used to be very happy with the guy who did it. He then took on staff and obviously didnt control them tightly enough. I have seen the work they did.. it was awfull.

Been doing them around 6 months now and so far not 1 complaint.. in fact many saying they are glad to be having someone using WFP correctly again.

Andrew

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2006, 08:28:39 pm »
Alex

I use Ionics brushes .I rinse on and off the glass,I Only rinse on the glass if i know 100% it is a good wfp house, If i am in any doubt i lift.

The glass on a few of these is not the usual beading glass ,It looks like the water is well spread on the glass but in minute bubbles and looks greasy to look at when wet, that was the peoblem on 2 of them,  I know salt and sunlight dont help especially after the big winds this month.
These houses are on top of an hill facing straight out into hayle estuary so they are head on into the sea,  I have other houses in similar situations and thankfully they are sheeting glass.

I cleaned one window for 10 minutes today and it still dried spotty all over the window on the glass described above.

The trouble is now, is the guess work of knowing when to stop, I feel a bit sickened at the moment and i am dreading the phone ringing, Most of my customers are fantastic and i only hope they are not being polite and not complaining, like the ones up to now.

Jeff Brimble

  • Posts: 4347
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2006, 08:39:39 pm »
If they are genuinely complaing offer to go back and do them again but some glass will always spot, they will usually accept another clean and accept the results. The majority will then forget all about it. Do not go back up the ladder. On the other forum in wfp A-Z there is a post called "Zap the spots" (last topic) which will help you realise you are not alone. Your going thro a process we all go thro, keep going  :)

The Fox

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2006, 08:41:30 pm »
The trouble is you have a lot of customers which will increase the chance of complaints, and you know there will always be windows that WFP will not work on.

 By the sound of it you do not trust some of your staff to do a good job?

I have only a part-time round and all my houses are WFP friendly and the customers seem happy.

They will always be a need for both methods. You just have to build the round to suit the method that you use, or use both and use the best method for each house.  

.In my case If it can’t be cleaned with WFP then they will have to find a traditional window cleaner. ( there as only being a couple)

From what I have read on here WFP and salt do not like each other so that might be the problem?


Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 08:45:28 pm »
Hmmm Just a suggestion here dave.

Sounds like these windows are coated in some way. Try dipping your brush in a solution of GG3 to scrub and then lift off to rinse. While scrubbing use a very low flow rate.  Probably down to the recent weather conditions as you say.

I am sure you would have heard from your customers before now if there were any real persistant problems with your work mate.

Andrew

gsw

  • Posts: 505
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2006, 09:00:37 pm »
how old is your brush? i was starting to get problems with my ionics brush (bought in october) just switched and to one of gaz's brushes (salmon brush i think) the difference is noticeable back to rinsing on the glass and much faster...... gaza's brushes start at £11.00 might be worth a try, i'm ordering two more next week!
hope this helps, greg

abacus

  • Posts: 229
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2006, 09:09:09 pm »
 Hi I cleaned some windows in the middle of Brighton today commercial ali at that above ncp and small amount of spotting  but after regular cleanig I would check that you guy is using a good method and a good time next check your brushes I have had a brush contaminated from a house earlier in the day that caused a lot of problems if all thyis fails clean the windows with traffic film remover or flash with with your detergent scrub with soft white scourer and brush off withthe pole and then rinse well    works for me  give it go best of luck

regards grant
A service you can count on
SAFEcontractor approved

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2006, 09:13:16 pm »
I dont know weather to sack the staff and just go it alone

 Dave 


On the basis of six complaints, three of them co-located (probably gossiping types), and one cancellation; I can't believe this idea entered into your mind; your poor staff!

Do you think they may be 'cutting corners'?  Are you checking their work, or are you just relying on your customer's feed-back and hoping for the best?

Dave, with an increased turnover, you should have an increased level of problems.  And if you're not checking up on your staff; just leaving them to their own devices; then I reckon they'll be doing what comes natrually to them; they'll take the 'easy route', as I would if I worked for you. 

You've got to ensure that 'management checks' are built into the daily routine of your staff.  If you don't; you're to blame for 'spotty windows'.  Would it be too difficult to drive around once or twice per day and check their work?  Even if it meant getting a set of ladders off to do it?

This is probably my 'army head' suggesting this; but it must make a difference and impress upon your staff the importance of getting a job done correctly; the first time.

And as for your co-located group of moaners, who said their windows hadn't been right in six months, even though you'd cleaned them yourself; is there a possibility they could be exagerating?  I think this is probably the case.  They don't want to sound like 'whingers', just poor hard done-by souls; getting ripped off each month.  Drop 'em.

Regards,

Tosh








Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2006, 09:15:13 pm »
Right, now don't all skip this post because it's from me....
Don't worry Dave, I'm not going to say "told you so" ;)

I think a lot of the public are going to check their windows a lot more, having heard complaints from others.

As more and more people get wfp, there will be more bad operatives, and then everyone will have to get it perfect, as the customers will have been warned or put off by others.

Those customers who complained to you will now tell their friends, and so on.....
I think that's where it's headed anyway, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the cowboys.

Not a criticism, just an observation....
Now that didn't hurt did it? ;D

Rog.

craig jwc

  • Posts: 1076
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2006, 09:20:22 pm »
Dave,

Have you asked any of these customers if they have put anything on their windows.

Only suggesting as i had a complaint from a customer and after a long discussion with them found out that they had sprayed their windows with something that was suppose to make their windows self cleaning.
I told them if they wanted me to carry on then they would have to put up with the poor results until it all came off.

I also told them i had to replace the brush head as it was causing me problems on other houses.

I had another one a couple of months ago who had used some sort of oven cleaner on their downstairs windows ??? ???

If you are thinking it is your staff would it cost too much to put them on a wfp course?

Craig

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2006, 09:26:47 pm »
I am re doing an house tommorrow so will go through my usuall routine and see if there is still a problem the last complaint today was cleaned by my staff. I will also clean the inside upstairs windows so i can have a proper look.

The 3 i re-cleaned the other day were still a bit spotty, one of them has booked the insides for next time so this will give me the opportunity to really examine the windows.

I will give the GG3 a go .

Jeff i have read the A-Z loads of times i have even been on the wfp course, I think i remember a post where you wrote about a 3rd type of glass, This could be the problem.

Tosh

You are right about the staff i think i will spend a couple of hours tommorrow re training, Even though yesterday i drummed into them to make sure the top bar was cleaned on all windows then to go back around an do the windows, on 2 of the jobs the top bar was a bit dirty and myself would of made sure this was spotless everytime.

I noticed a couple of weeks ago when i went to do a gutter job that the tops of the windows were dirty from where the staff had cleaned them and put this down to avoiding the vents, so i will have to check iif they are paying enough attention to the top bars.

Craig

I dont think it is down to anything put on the windows the 3 together face a rail station and look out on to the sea so i think the combined salt ,wind and railway does not help the cause.
Course i will put them on an intense course tommorrow if it carries on it will be a signing on course

Dave

Dave

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2006, 09:33:54 pm »
SACK EM ALL DAVE !
Thing is as you said , you have gone back to do them yourself and they still have not come up right , i had one set of windows which would never come out right , not sure what to suggest except the old faithful
RINSE , RINSE , RINSE !

 rICH   p @ f
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2006, 09:42:51 pm »
Rich

The trouble with sacking them is that they are £25+ hour jobs and i hate to lose money, I would rather find a solution, I have agreed with the customers that i will clean the windows myself personally for the next few cleans and if i cant get them right i will have to give them up.

I Think i may drop a note to all my customers asking for feedback, so at least  they will tell me if there any problems

Dave

jinky230

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 09:45:49 pm »
david what method do your operators use
backpacks trolley truckmount

jinky

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2006, 09:56:15 pm »
I was only kiddin Dave !
Im sure they will come good , it does always seem to be this time of year though , i think the prob is that you get so used to doing it in the colder temps you can get away with murder , when the hot stuff comes it does take a bit more flow or a longer rinse to cool the glass , only my opinion though .
Thats what always scares me with taking on staff , most of my custom has come from one man bands who took on workers and the quality suffered .

 Rich   P @ F

 P.S . DAVE , Pay me £30 ph and i will supply 000tds , diesel and van and man and we are all winners !  ;D  
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 10:09:56 pm »
They  use a Truckmount  and use about 2 litres a minute.

I think i will just send the staff out on the cheap work from now on and make sure i do all the cream myself.

Dave

craig jwc

  • Posts: 1076
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2006, 10:15:19 pm »

 P.S . DAVE , Pay me £30 ph and i will supply 000tds , diesel and van and man and we are all winners !  ;D  

Rich

Dave's trying too sort the problem out not make it worse ;D ;D

Craig

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 10:16:46 pm »
I think i will just send the staff out on the cheap work from now on and make sure i do all the cream myself.

Dave

Then your staff will think you consider them second class and they will perform accordingly.


jinky230

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2006, 10:22:52 pm »
I thought they might have been using backpacks that why I asked

they are good for aukward situations, but you really need the bigger pumps for rinse


I know what you are going thru as most of us have been there, maybe on a different scale,but you have got to way up the pros and cons with wfp to ladders and this will give you the correct decision to make, going down the route of doing it yourself will only tie up your time, and you will eventually give the work to the operators later down the line.A toolbox talk is required and a review of operators integrity towards  you and your  business  is also ready for a review, remember it is their livelyhood that is at stake as well

jinky

jinky

craig jwc

  • Posts: 1076
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2006, 10:26:23 pm »
If Dave explains the problems coming from the complaints and tells them he wants to find out what the problem is for himself then they shouldn't really question his decision.
They work from him and if they are getting slack in their work then they need a kick up the backside, or if it is a problem with the way they wfp they obviously need re-training.

Craig

JohnL

  • Posts: 723
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2006, 10:29:51 pm »
David, you have to do what you consider is correct for the clients, the company and the future, even if that means doing one window trad another WFP to see if the problem could be the windows or the sysytems/operators amongst all the other options you are considering.

As I am only a newbie at this game I will leave you to it and hope all the best as I know you are experienced enough to sort the problem satisfactorily

JohnL
West Somerset. On the edge of the Quantocks and looking at The Exmoor National Park.

Roy Harding

  • Posts: 1964
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2006, 10:56:41 pm »
Dave

There is a saying " your only as good as your worst employee "

Talk to the customers your self and do the next few cleans your self, if they come up good you know the problem.

Dont ask for feed back from your customers you may open a bigger can of worms. I have used new people using a squeegee and the customers allways check  them to see if they are doing a good job, and if the are good they dont bother again unless you really muff up.

I know if you start checking windows that were done traditional you would fiind some mark.

As I say do them your self and regain the trust of your customers.


Roy

ronaldo

  • Posts: 840
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2006, 11:05:32 pm »
Go it alone and the houses it suits keep and the ones it doesnt pass them on.

I was down the route of having people working for me and it was a nightmare and as ive said before if your on your own the buck stops with you, you do a bad job you cant blame anybody else.

My round is now 180 houses light to what it used to be and its now more profitable because ive took on work that suits me and at proper prices, and i.m doing it on my lonesome, its all about the quality of work you do and not the quantity of work you have.

I now sit in my chair every night and feel good because i aint a BUSY FOOL anymore.
A bad days fishing is better than a good days work !

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2006, 11:13:53 pm »
No , your just a FOOL these days  ;D ;D ;D

 Rich   P @ F
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

DASERVICES

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2006, 11:17:39 pm »
  Dave,

  I have a couple of houses which I don't trust the glass, with these ones
  I just do a quick brush and rinse and blade them . I don't wipe the edges
  apart from the top and I find this does the trick, it's about the same time as
  doing a long rinse.

  Works for bottoms but looking into how to do it for tops, I know it sounds
  long winded but it keeps my customers happy.

  Doug

ronaldo

  • Posts: 840
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2006, 11:18:49 pm »
Thanks Rich.      :'(
A bad days fishing is better than a good days work !

abacus

  • Posts: 229
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2006, 11:24:45 pm »
Dave when you isolate the problem will you please let us know what it was and the solution you came up with in case we get the same problem thanks
 regards grant
A service you can count on
SAFEcontractor approved

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2006, 10:58:14 am »
Hiya Dave,

You said that you had read where Jeff thought there might be a 'third' type of glass...I would agree with him, now and again you come across glass that just will not come right.
I've a couple like that myself, on the upstairs yo ujust do the best job you can, on the downstairs I still use WFP, but squeegee the glass, you don't have to worry about detailing and it works out to be only a quick going over with your squeegee.

I have also had windows where I have sprayed a solution of detergent (in my case Unger liquid) onto the brush head, cleaned a handful of windows in this manner and then gone back over them again, making sure they were washed and rinsed properly to get rid of any detergent residue.

If I still used my trolley, or had a backpack I would also try adding a couple of drops of GG3 to a 25l container of pure water.
I think I have read where Justin Ruggles has done this to good effect (my apologies to Justin if I have got that wrong by the way).
A couple of drops in the water shouldn't affect the TDS too much, but may well lower the surface tension of the water and therefore reduce beading.

With this glass, it is like there is a film of silicon over it, it beads up but as David has said, the beads are microscopic, and often follow  precisely the line your bristles make on the glass, and you just know that some of those will dry spotty.

Another option is too use a hand sprayer filled with whatever deterent solution you use and spray you brush head and bristles prior to starting one of these accounts.
scrub the bristles of the brush between your fingers so that you give them a thorough clean, turn on your pump and rinse the detergent off the bristles.
Providing you aren't using washing up liquid in your water this only takes a minute or so to do.

It may well be that the bristles of the brush are picking up some of the sealant the glass was bedded into, or perhaps the rubber seal too.

If your neighbours house is one of these types that always dry spotty, ask if they would mind if you experimented on them.
You could then try such things as I suggested in this reply, one or the other might work.
On one account (my cricket club actually :-\) I had to go back over the windows because they just didn't look right, so I attached my soapy applicator to my pole and gave the windows a good soapy scrub.
It more than doubled the time taken to clean the windows, and it took ages to get them washed and rinsed clean with pure water, but the results were worth it.
This won't be the problem with your windows though as these hadn't been cleaned for a few years and there was a film on the glass that only a detergent would remove.
But you really need to find an account you can experiment on, the time it takes you will be well spent, as you will know in the future who best to tackle a job that dries out in this manner.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

herbiefatboy

  • Posts: 361
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2006, 06:37:25 pm »
dave i had the same problem on houses near a lorry park as you said the houses are near a railway i would think it is diesil fumes stuck on the window i just spent a little more time on mine and it sorted it out hope this is a  little help

jeff evans

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2006, 08:36:23 pm »
Hi Dave.

I just think that we are at that time of of the year when complaints come in, no matter what method you use i,e trad or wfp.

You get that big red thing in the sky and it magnifies every little detail.

But i do agree that i dont think wfp works well on all types of window, i have some that no matter what i try they will not dry without spots or runs.

This means i cant have complete confidence in the system, because i am constantly going back to check work and put right mistakes.

So what i do is find which accounts i can trust to do and walk away from, and anything dodgy i will do trad.

Just my thoughts
Cheers Jeff

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2006, 11:00:55 pm »
Dave, I once had a guy working with me that got paid on the percentage. I ended up sacking him. Human nature comes into it, if the more they do ,the more they get paid, the temptation is always there to rush the work.
Now a lot has been written about having confidence in the system, complacency can creep up on you. I think I may be a bit guilty of this myself. If the customers are not complaining, it's easy to slip into over confident mode. Scrub a little less, rinse a little quicker, all of a sudden you are not doing the job right. It's OK you have every confidence in your system, this WFP is so much quicker. Then! you start getting the complaints and your confidence evaporates. It's not the WFP'S fault, remember what we were told when we started with it. It's not a magic wand. Slow down a bit, get on your ladders to check like we did in the beginning.
I'm expecting it to happen to me at any time, the complaints I mean, I feel that I am getting a bit complacent. Time I got on the ladders again say every 5th house, just to check if I'm doing the job right. With a highly compact round, and the way people talk to each other, I can't afford to mess it up. Dai

carl_foster

Re: Losing faith in wfp, ?
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2006, 11:10:21 pm »
what you want to do is to wet the window  first with the jet you find in this warm weather the water drys fast so you will need to put a lot of water on the window to stop the water marks at the bottem or double rince..