[Fintan_Coll]

In a situation when using an in line heat exchanger with a portable does it have any noticeable difference in water pressure at the wand than a machine with no heat exchanger.
Also does anyone run the heated water back to the solution tank again in order to heat the water in the tank or is this necessary, I am thinking on a Recoil which does not have a water heater.

[Dynafoam]

Fintan,

Portable in-line heat exchangers can have an effect on water pressure.

As the water is heated it expands and the pressure within the core increases up to the pressure of the internal pressure relief valve. For the recoil 3HP, if you get an Ashbys Steamate you will need the 500psi model.

With this you will never notice a reduction in pump pressure, but the pressure to the wand can, for short periods, rise to 500psi regardless of the flow control setting on the machine. This would generally occur after a period of zero flow. If this is a problem it is easily overcome by having a bucket in the room and spraying into it for a few seconds to relieve excess pressure and/or temperature. with continuous use this problem does not arise.

There is no need to pump back into the tank to maintain tank temperature as the Steamate can cope very well with a cold-water intake, even at the high flow-rates that the Recoil pump can provide.

I did ,briefly, consider designing an adjustable feed-back system to give stable temperatures and full pressure stabilisation, but since the heat exchanger is frequently 50 or 75ft from the machine, this would involve a long return hose.

One not-so obvious advantage of a heat echanger is that if working at a site that has no hot water available, you can have almost instant hot water for mixing pre-sprays  

John.

[woodman]

How would this work when using CFR which as you know recycles the solution.

I know many of us CFR users only use hot water from the tap as the cleaning method copes well with most situations in conjunction with  the correct cleaning solutions.By attaching a Steammate the water would be heated cooooled then re-heated and used again and again until changed so in effect this is what Fintan was refering to, I think

On reflection would the solution recycled going through the steam mate over and over again have a detrimental effect on the components?

Trevor

[Dynafoam]

Trevor,

As efficient as the CFR filtration system may be, it will not removed dissolved solids.

Effectively this means that the recycled water will be extreamly 'hard' and some of these dissolved solids may become deposited on the exchanger core. The consequence of this is likely to be the need for frequent de-scaling, which is in itself an agresive process.

I would be very surprised if this did not lead to a reduction in life-span of the unit.

John.

[mark_roberts]

Ive got the low pressure version of the Ashbys heater and it does affect flow/pressure.  May not be so much of a pain if working at 350 psi instead of 100psi.

The really annoying thing about these are if you set the wand down for a few minutes and then restart cleaning the temp has built up to produce steam which doesnt clean well but looks impressive.  Takes about 15 long seconds to get back to normal.  Also the extra lead and unit laying about is annoying esp for the 25ft jobs.

I now only use it for very dirty carpets.

Asked Ed about an element heater but was told 'its not recommended'.  So I bought the advantage instead and also because its much much quieter and have the savage booster on order and may upgrade the pump if I feel the need.

Mark
Mark

[Fintan_Coll]

Whats the story on the advantage Mark. Does it only have one electrical cord so you cannot heat the water while you are working. Did you buy direct from Alltec or had you to go through other channels.

[Mark Betts]

Fintan

The advantage can be ordered with 2 leads, so you can heat the water while working.



Mark

[Ian Gourlay]

Got no idea how it works but my heat exchanger heats the water in the tank.

[mark_roberts]

Well thats not what Cross American told me.  So they have lost a sale.

Got the advantage today with two power leads and I'm very impressed with it.  The vacuum recovery is way better than the ninja.  Its very well put together and seems easy and quick to work on if theres a problem.

Only annoying thing, so far, is theres no lifting handle at the front of the machine at the top.  So I'm going to have to make a ramp to get it into the van.  Also its not as light as the Ninja but then the back does come off.

Mark

[mark_roberts]

Fintan

I went through the Enniskillen channel if you catch my drift.  No other option.

Mark

[Mark Betts]

Mark

There is a recess just under the vac hose inlet that is designed as a "grab" handle.



Mark

[Dynafoam]

Mark,

The Altech Advantage is airflow optimised - though it has a lower vacuum potential, the increased airflow can recover more water in general cleaning.

One instance where the Ninja would beat it is in after-flood recovery, where the higher vacuum would be an advantage. (No pun intended)

Be happy with your new machine.

John.

[Dynafoam]

Ian,

Internal heat exchangers heat the tank water via the return hose.

Water from the pump passes through the heat exchanger. When the wand trigger valve is open, this water pases along the solution line to the jets. when the valve is closed the heated water is dumped back into the solution tank.

This system has advantages over the external heat exchanger but also has the disadvantage that the water is always heated at the machine, whereas the external unit can be placed distant from the machine, near to where the heat is required - makes a big difference if you have 50+ feet of hose trailing down the outside of a block of flats in mid-winter.

John.

[Fintan_Coll]

Yes, been through that channel too ,Mark but my option was to buy  an Extracta because Robert couldnt even reply to my email.
Good luck with your new machine Mark, hope it makes you plenty money.

[Michel Roberts]

John,

After reading these boards I now understand(I think) the difference between airflow optimised and vac optimised i.e series setup vac optimised parallel setup airflow optimised.
In every case that I can think of this applys to twin vac machines of one sort or another.

Where does this leave your new machine the recoil which has 3 vacs. I,m guessing that it,s airflow optimised as I know from reading Eds posts on other boards that he is abig fan of cfm s.

I know that airflow optimised will give better performance over greater lenghs of hose ie 75 ft but if you were working on normal carpet with just 25ft of hose would you in most cases still use all 3vacs or would you just use 2.  In other words Ican see that the third vac is usefull when working at long lenghs but is it also worthwhile using on shorter lenghs or is it to be saved for when reqiured.

Sorry about the spelling, just come back from the pub again.!


Regards Michel

[Dynafoam]

Hi Michel,

The only time I would reduce power is where the vacuum drag at the tool becomes excessive, eg. curtain cleaning.

It is worth noting that a powerful VO machine can be made to produce comparable recovery to a similar AO machine at long hose runs by adopting a different wand technique which uses the reservoir effect of the hose. Derek pointed out recently the importance of learning how to get the best out of whatever equipment is available. In this way a skilled operator can often achieve a superior result with inferior equipment.

To illustrate this point I recently removed a stain from a shop carpet using cold water, towels and a small wooden device. I was told that the stain had been worked on for some time by the truck-mount operators who had cleaned the shop carpet two week previously.

It's not all about power, whether measured in cfm or mm of mercury.

John.

[mark_roberts]

John

Could you explain in detail some of your wanding techniques as I think I could learn a thing or two in this department.

thanks
Mark

[Len Gribble]

John

It wasn’t me working in your neck of the woods on commercial, domestic yes! But to be fair customers always expect you to remove stains at no extra cost!

You are right about equipment I already pack my van up today porty/two rotaries plus all the other bits one uses and was asked if I could remove a mark in the banking hall, which I did without any machinery, would have liked to rinse it out but not getting paid.

Len

[Michel Roberts]

Mark sounds like you,ve just been through the same process as I'm going through myself ie trying to decide between an advantage/recoil/high spec ninja ect. Every time I make up my mind on one machine something crops up, at the moment I'm changing my mind on a daily basis. Worse than the misses. Are you sure it would be easy to change the pump on the alltech as I called them this week to find out If they could put a more powerfull pump in and was told no. I don't know if I was talking to the right man or just someone who picked up the phone in the factory. If anyone knows the name of the person there whose techie I would be gratefull. 135 psi seems quite average nowdays.

John I bet your wooden device was that ingeinious bit of kit you had at the amtech training day!

I would echo Marks comments about info on the correct wand technics for AO and VO machines. I remember some time back you made a post that said with AO machines you had to leave a bit of a gap on the trailing edge to allow for increased airflow. How would you suggest useing the wand differently on a VO machine for best effect and how do you build up a vac resevoir.

I sure there are many people who would like to know.

Regards Michel

PS Those humidity things you were kind enough to post never arrived but thanks for the thought.

[Mark Betts]

Michel

Just to answer your question regarding upgrading the pump on the advantage, although your question was dirested at Mark Roberts.
The advantage was offered with a 200 psi pump option but was withdrawn due to unreliability problems.

It can be upgraded with a 200 psi pump from somewhere else I cant remember where at the moment,but I was in corrsepondence with the company a couple of months ago. as to fitting a larger than 200 psi pump in I am not sure if there would be the room.

Mark

[Dynafoam]

Mark_r & Michel,

Wand technique is something that needs to be demonstrated and explained at the same time but I will try to address the two specific questions raised.

Airflow is the most important factor in the removal of water from the carpet pile during cleaning and can also be used to supercharge the flushing action of the solution. The amount of energy in the jet-spray has an obvious effect on the physical disturbance of the soil and this energy can be enhanced by maintaining the flow of solution with the available airflow.

Having the wand at the correct angle so that air enters at high speed though the jet-side lip of the wand builds upon the momentum of the jetted solution to create a horizontal flow through the pile. This is the basic principal on which the CFR wand works.

This applies to AO and VO machines, but with a VO machine the gap needs to be finer in order to maintain depression in the system since it is the air speed that is critical.

The other question concerned long hose runs on a VO machine. Consider that the air-space within the tank and the hose can together form a vacuum reservoirs. When the wand tip is occluded the vacuum within this reservoirs increases to the maximum depression that can be provided by the vacuum unit.

As the occlusion is removed air rushes in by the only route possible - the wand mouth. This in-rush of air will decrease as the vacuum in the reservoir is relieved until it reaches a level which can be maintained by the vacuum units with partial occlusion of the wand mouth. We'll call this 'normal depression'.

We can use this by placing the wand mouth tight against the carpet and first allowing the internal depression to reach its maximum, then starting the cleaning stroke, controlling the airflow as above and ending the stroke at the point of normal depression. The wand is then moved foreword in the occluded position to allow the maximum development of depression in readiness for the next cleaning stroke.

This is rather like the storage of energy in an elastic band or coil spring - the total amount of energy output cannot exceed the energy input, what differs is the time-scale, so the energy output per millisecond can be several times greater.

The reason this second technique is less effective with an AO setup is that motor-for-motor it has much less vacuum potential, and is less necessary because the airflow will be more constant.

John.

PS. Michel, sorry the RH meter did not arrive (especially after such careful packing) I'll see it I can get hold of another. And, yes the device was similar the the one seen at Amtech, but about four times the size and a slightly different shape.

[Michel Roberts]

John and Mark

Thank you both for your replys

John, How do you know when you have reached the point of maximun depression. Is it by the sound of the motors? would you use this method all the time with a V O machine or just on troublesome bits traffic lanes etc. If using it all the time does it add a lot of time to each drawstroke and therefore the whole job. Re humidity meters John I didn't  want to put you out at all so please don't worry to much.

Regards

[Michel Roberts]

Two Ingenious devices from one lump of 4x2!
There's economy for you.

Michel  

[Dynafoam]

Michel,

The motor sound is a good indicator. Some types of vacuum hose contract as the vacuum rises, so this can be used when working too far away to hear the motor. Once you have practised in a given machine the indicators will not be required as it becomes second-nature.

The technique will always work, but I would use it only when needing get the peak performance - ie on extreme hose runs or problematic areas. the delay that it adds is not on the draw stroke, but between draw strokes. the amount of time that would be added to a clean would depend on the machine and the hose-length but would normally be between 5-10%.

John.

[Michel Roberts]

I understand

Thanks John

I went to A+M today to see the recoil but just back from the pub again as usual so far to drunk to type english so will post later

Regards Michel