[david_green]

I understand that solvent or water is simply a carrier for the product and they both evaporate away. I also understand that solvent based protectors will survive H.W.E. better than water based protectors. Why is this when the carriers evaporate leaving the same product?

[Derek]

David

I have never found any difference whether the carrier is a solvent or water.
The protection will be affected by wear over time and also by chemicals used during a cleaning process. The degree of protection loss will be significant with the use of higher pH chemicals. Residues and cationic chemicals also have a detrimental effect.

This is assuming, of course, that the initial application is up to the required standard...sadly this isn't always the case

Derek

[Doug Holloway]

Dave,

I am not sure why solvent based might be more resistant to hwe but it may be that it coats the fibres better in the first place,thereby giving a more complete film and a better bond.

A water based product will need a surfactant to keep the polymer in suspension whereas a solvent could dissolve  the polymer with no detergent- like chemicals to disturb the bond.

In both solvent and water the polymer film is formed when the solvent(water is a solvent) evaporates and the bits of florocarbon join together to form a film.
Obviously the better the polymer is distributed the more likely a good film will be produced.
Also other molecules present will get in the way of the flourocarbon molecules thereby hindering film formation.

This is one reason why paints are applied in 3 stages with the primer containing a lot of adhesive for a good bond,the undercoat a lot of pigment to give colour and the gloss with a lot of resistant film former to protect and reflect light.

If you put a lot of pigment in the gloss it would inhibit the film former.

Cheers,

Doug

[Londoner]

I may be sticking my neck out in saying this but most customers in my experience who have been charged for protectors in the past got something that was virtually or totally useless because it was overdiluted to cut costs.
Worse still some were, no doubt, ripped off completely and had plain water  sprayed around.
Protectors are expensive to buy and there lies the problem. By the time you have paid for the protector there is not much profit left for you unless you charge an absolute fortune.

[Ken Wainwright]

Vince
Whilst your neck is sticking out that far, just hang your head over this wooden block while I sharpen my axe

I hear what you're saying and would agree that there are those in our industry who have that type of mentality. But, by being members of Clean It Up, all here are showing their commitment to our industry and their own professionalism. I presume you were not refering to any of us.

Protectors are products I wouldn't be without on my own soft furnishings. I have cases where my customers have benefited many times over from them. But I wouldn't oversell them. They do not keep your furnishings clean. They do not offer stain proofing. But they do help the consumer to maintain their valuable carpets and upholstery to the highest standard.

Protector solutions expensive to buy? Not really. I suppose material costs are typically less than 50p sqM. Sold at a low profit? Only if you charge peanuts. Or need to charge a small fortune? No way! just a reasonable margin for the product, my skill and knowhow, investment in my training, equipment and all the infrastructure of my business.

If you buy quality products, offer quality service and support and offer a fair and reasonable price for it, you're well on the way to being a successful businessman.

safe and happy cleaning:)
Ken

[Londoner]

Ken

I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone. Certainly, the sort of people who take the trouble to participate in sensible discussion groups would be unlikely to do that sort of thing.
However, just because we are the good guys doesn't mean that we cant talk about the bad guys and their scams.
Protectors lend themselves to scams from the unscrupulous because (a) they are expensive enough to tempt people to cut corners and (b) unless the customer is particularly clued up they have no way of knowing whether it has been done or not.

A number of furniture companies are just as bad. When you buy a suite they try to sell you protector as an extra.
Typically it costs about £100 but all they do is give a lad in the warehouse a couple of tins of aerosol and tell him to spray the suite before it goes out

Protectors are good and they do work as an added service to offer to your customers.

If I appear cynical it probably because I have seen a few things in the past which haven't pleased me. The purpose of a forum like this is to raise standards by discussing the issues.

Vince

[Neil Gott]

Vince
Whilst your neck is sticking out that far, just hang your head over this wooden block while I sharpen my axe

I hear what you're saying and would agree that there are those in our industry who have that type of mentality. But, by being members of Clean It Up, all here are showing their commitment to our industry and their own professionalism. I presume you were not refering to any of us.

Protectors are products I wouldn't be without on my own soft furnishings. I have cases where my customers have benefited many times over from them. But I wouldn't oversell them. They do not keep your furnishings clean. They do not offer stain proofing. But they do help the consumer to maintain their valuable carpets and upholstery to the highest standard.

Protector solutions expensive to buy? Not really. I suppose material costs are typically less than 50p sqM. Sold at a low profit? Only if you charge peanuts. Or need to charge a small fortune? No way! just a reasonable margin for the product, my skill and knowhow, investment in my training, equipment and all the infrastructure of my business.

If you buy quality products, offer quality service and support and offer a fair and reasonable price for it, you're well on the way to being a successful businessman.

safe and happy cleaning:)
Ken

[Derek]

Vince is making the very point that I do on the many occasions that protectors are discussed.

'Protectors work if they are applied in the correct manner'!

I have seen, first hand, some of the mal-practices that Vince has highlighted plus we all know how the 'splash and dash' brigade exploit it and have come up with their own brand of the 'protection racket'

The retailers do give the job of application to staff who are often ill trained, often don't get any extra cash to do it ....so are they interested in doing the job right?  

Dream on!

I have applied a great deal of protector over the years and been involved in training applicators...I have also seen and had to deal with the aftermath of poor treatments... not much fun when there is an angry customer at hand.

Cheers
Derek

[Ken Wainwright]

Hi Vince

I know you're not pointing fingers at anyone, especially us here on Clean It Up, and there was certainly no malice intended in my post. But you did make a feed for a good debate. I'm surprised so few have joined in! I think though that a balanced view is necessary, especially for the newbies that read these boards, otherwise they may only be enlightened as to the negative side. As I presume you and Derek would expect, I am fully aware of the less capable and ethical people within our industry.

Safe and happy cleaning:)
Ken

[Neil Gott]

I have not got the hang of the quoting system, and so at 4.42 today (Sunday) quoted the whole of Ken's post (above) without any comment. Apologies.

I only wanted to quote a small part of it. Any suggestions?

[Len Gribble]

Granted there are the fly-by-night in the game which clause us all grief, the major problem as I see those selling it and applying it correctly what guarantee do you give and have you the backing of an insurance company?  As a customer that’s what I would ask, having it done by the retailer is another thing you have a chance.

Len

[Derek]

Len

You little devil...you have opened yet another can of worms....warranties

Over the years warranties have changed beyond recognition having been diluted from the original concept ...a bit like the 'new for old' insurance policies.
Loads of exclusions have crept in for one reason or another.

Then there were those that used the warranty scheme as it should be used and those who exploited it...put that together with the poor applications as previously discussed and you have a heck of a mess and a decline in consumer confidence.

Cheers
Derek

[Ken Wainwright]

As most of us are aware, warranties generally have proven to be a pain in the derriere.

Here's one solution that may allow you to command premium returns for your services. "Cut and paste" as suits your needs.

GOLD SERVICE
Regular high quality clean

PLATINUM SERVICE
As per Gold plus leading brand name protector.

DIAMOND SERVICE
As per Platinum plus 2 year free callback to treat upto 5 stains. Plus (maybe) 24/7 telephone helpline to yourself.

Naturally each level will attract different rates. The 5 stain callback treatment (not removal) could be 5 visits for 1 stain each or 1 visit for 5 stains or anywhere in between. If damage is so great that replacement is required, then many householders will have accidental cover on their Home Contents Policy. Why should they pay for this service twice over?

Safe and happy protecting:)
Ken

[Ian Gourlay]

While on the Subject of Protectors I thought you could not get Scothgard anymore.

When out and about I look in Yellow Pages to see how other cleaners promote their business.

Many are still advertising it.

Am I confused.

At the weekend I was in The City of Carpet cleaning and had a look in the local Yellow Pages.

Ps if you can buy it where do you get it?

[Derek]

Ian

I think you will find that the people advertising are the old Scotchcare network....

There is a new solvent fabric protector and a UK carpet protector currently being reformulated. Many are using the US protector but I believe this is no longer available in the UK.

Cheers
Derek

[Ken Wainwright]

Is it true Derek, that the new Scotchgard is only stain resistant to water based spillages, and not effective against dry or oily soil?

Safe and happy protecting:)
Ken

[Derek]

Ken

Certainly not... although I believe 3M did put a protector on the market that was as you describe which was an interim product until the new one emerges.... not many people are aware of its existance.

Cheers
Derek

[Len Gribble]

Derek

Another worm!

Scotchcare/scotchgard authorised old, are they allowed too use this in there advertisements as this system is no longer in operation, surprised the franchise system haven’t jump on this!

Len

[Derek]

Len

Please don't go down this particular road.... technically you are correct but there are mitigating circumstances Milord!

I plead guilty but ask that my record is taken into account  

Cheers
Derek