Rubber crumb safety surface cleaning...

« **on:** September 19, 2013, 08:04:46 pm »

Hi Guys,

I have recently been chatting to a chap who owns a 'rubber crumb' safety surface installation business. He doesn't offer an 'aftercare' package and he was keen to send work my way if I am able to offer him a sensible solution to his problem.

I have done a little bit of research in order to determine best method for getting these surfaces clean, but as yet I've not been too successful.

If you're unsure of the type of surface I'm referring to, just think of spongey rubber protective kiddie area usually found in your run-of-the-mill slide and swing type play-park.

I can only think her washing would be the best solution, but with possible chemical treatment to remove surface debris.

Thanks,

Stuart.

« **Reply #1 on:** September 20, 2013, 08:00:02 am »

If it is the same surface we have done in a couple of private gymnasiums all we did was clean it with Heavy Duty Cleaner diluted 5:1 with a soft brush, mono rotary then we vacced up , rinsed and vacced again and it came up immaculate. Do a test area first or send me a piece and I will develop a cleaning method specific for it.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #2 on:** September 20, 2013, 02:39:50 pm »

Cheers Kev. The surface is something which would be installed outdoors, in playgrounds, not sure if this makes a difference with your method at all? Apparently, tree sap can be a problem as well other outdoor contaminants.

Thanks.

« **Reply #3 on:** September 20, 2013, 05:48:48 pm »

Quote from: Stu Roberts on September 20, 2013, 02:39:50 pm

Cheers Kev. The surface is something which would be installed outdoors, in playgrounds, not sure if this makes a difference with your method at all? Apparently, tree sap can be a problem as well other outdoor contaminants.

Thanks.

Stu

Try a test area using my method it should come up brilliantly!

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2013, 08:33:33 pm »

When cleaning rubber crumb flooring be careful not to use high alkaline based floor cleaners as we have seen many of them damaged from continuous use of these harsh chemical cleaners, we would recommend to pre spray with a non-caustic,non-corrosive, based floor cleaning solution allow plenty of dwell time then scrub and vac with a high vapour industrial steam machine the ones that allow you to scrub and vac at the same time, these machines can be hired from your larger tool hire depots.

« **Reply #5 on:** September 20, 2013, 09:53:47 pm »

Quote from: Tadgh O Shea on September 20, 2013, 08:33:33 pm

When cleaning rubber crumb flooring be careful not to use high alkaline based floor cleaners as we have seen many of them damaged from continuous use of these harsh chemical cleaners, we would recommend to pre spray with a non-caustic,non-corrosive, based floor cleaning solution allow plenty of dwell time then scrub and vac with a high vapour industrial steam machine the ones that allow you to scrub and vac at the same time, these machines can be hired from your larger tool hire depots.

Tadgh

I don't quite understand why you keep warning against high alkaline cleaners! I have been using Aqua Mix High Alkaline for years and have never damaged a floor yet. Provided a test area is done, it is used correctly diluted with the correct dwell time and is rinsed I have never had a problem!

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #6 on:** September 20, 2013, 10:53:57 pm »

Hi Kevin, Yes I will admit I have a total aversion to high alkaline based cleaning chemicals as from my experience over the years I have seen first hand the detrimental damage these harsh chemicals cause to surfaces from continuous use, I had been using them for many years myself and put my hand up before on this forum admitting that I caused damage to my own clients surfaces from using high alkaline based cleaning chemicals. When I see contractors mopping floors with cotton string mops and high alkaline based floor cleaners it dose my head in, because they are not cleaning them but actually dirtying them, as the cotton mops just push the soils around the floor and then the high alkaline based cleaner which is caustic and corrosive just grinds the soils further into the substrate, this happens on a daily basis to compound the problem which in turn leads to hard floors becoming black with the dirt which is one of the biggest problems in our industry, not to mention the amount of safety floors I have seen damaged beyond repair from continuous mopping with high alkaline based floor cleaning chemicals which just chemically burn the substrate. When I joined the industry in 1982 no one warned me about the damaging effects of using high alkaline based cleaning chemicals not just on floors but across the board for example TFRs which are also high alkaline based and I don't even want to go into the damage that these harsh chemicals cause to exterior and interior surfaces of vehicles again I repeat from continuous use, anyway enough of my rant and Kevin trust me I am not trying to knock you personally, the advice I am sharing from my experience is for the benefit of the newer guys coming into our industry as its important to share our knowledge to help them along the way, with todays advances in cleaning science there are plenty of janitorial suppliers in the UK who are promoting safe and effective cleaning solutions which will clean surfaces safely without causing the detrimental damage caused by old school technologies like high alkaline based cleaning chemicals.

« **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2013, 11:12:59 pm »

Without starting a big debate these can be pressure washed as well, with an alkaline solution cleaner, low pressure and no damaged caused, I have one coming up in a couple of month's, will take b&a photos

« **Reply #8 on:** September 21, 2013, 12:08:59 am »

Hi Roger, Yes you are right they can be pressure washed, but my point is if you continuously use high alkaline based chemical cleaners they will cause detrimental damage to the substrate, this is a fact within our industry its from the continuous use of caustic and corrosive based cleaning chemicals which high alkaline based cleaners come under, you will not see the detrimental damaged caused by one off cleans its from continuous use of these harsh chemicals which cause the detrimental damage, hope this info can be of benefit.

« **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2013, 12:23:48 am »

I do agree with you about cleaners, mopping with alkaline cleaners, but as Kevin points out you have to rinse properly afterwards.
It all boils down to inadequate training given to operatives.

« **Reply #10 on:** September 21, 2013, 12:44:35 am »

My point is why use cleaning chemicals that are caustic and corrosive based and will cause detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use, it dose not matter about rinsing as the caustic and corrosive ingredients will cause the detrimental damage from continuous use. when there are plenty of janitorial suppliers in the UK promoting safe cleaning solutions that will clean surfaces safely and effectively without causing detrimental damage to surfaces.come on guys start playing ball here, its simple really just start to google which products are safe and which are harmful there is a wealth of information at your finger tips. remember the saying
"People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care"

« **Reply #11 on:** September 21, 2013, 07:55:10 am »

Lee (Blastaway) on the general cleaning section has done loads of these.. Speak to him. He jet washes them.

« **Reply #12 on:** September 21, 2013, 09:59:18 am »

Quote from: Tadgh O Shea on September 20, 2013, 10:53:57 pm

Hi Kevin, Yes I will admit I have a total aversion to high alkaline based cleaning chemicals as from my experience over the years I have seen first hand the detrimental damage these harsh chemicals cause to surfaces from continuous use, I had been using them for many years myself and put my hand up before on this forum admitting that I caused damage to my own clients surfaces from using high alkaline based cleaning chemicals. When I see contractors mopping floors with cotton string mops and high alkaline based floor cleaners it dose my head in, because they are not cleaning them but actually dirtying them, as the cotton mops just push the soils around the floor and then the high alkaline based cleaner which is caustic and corrosive just grinds the soils further into the substrate, this happens on a daily basis to compound the problem which in turn leads to hard floors becoming black with the dirt which is one of the biggest problems in our industry, not to mention the amount of safety floors I have seen damaged beyond repair from continuous mopping with high alkaline based floor cleaning chemicals which just chemically burn the substrate. When I joined the industry in 1982 no one warned me about the damaging effects of using high alkaline based cleaning chemicals not just on floors but across the board for example TFRs which are also high alkaline based and I don't even want to go into the damage that these harsh chemicals cause to exterior and interior surfaces of vehicles again I repeat from continuous use, anyway enough of my rant and Kevin trust me I am not trying to knock you personally, the advice I am sharing from my experience is for the benefit of the newer guys coming into our industry as its important to share our knowledge to help them along the way, with todays advances in cleaning science there are plenty of janitorial suppliers in the UK who are promoting safe and effective cleaning solutions which will clean surfaces safely without causing the detrimental damage caused by old school technologies like high alkaline based cleaning chemicals.
[/quote

Tadgh

I am well aware of the damge that can be caused but my point is applied correctly, diluted correctly, given the correct dwell time, extracted, rinsed and extracted again there is no problem.

I am not talking about some twerp with a Mop & Bucket using it who I agree causes all sorts of problems but then again lets be fair so do millions of homeowners with paper mops, crappy buckets and a bottles of Flash or similar who don't read instructions!

Ultimately it the homeowners who need the wake up call in that they should be using decent microfibre mops, kentucky buckets on wheels with wringers and some pH neutral cleaner.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #13 on:** September 21, 2013, 11:25:55 am »

Hi Kevin, My point is again just to warn the newer guys coming into our industry about the dangers of using high alkaline based cleaning chemicals, most of these harsh chemicals contain sodium hydroxide which is a corrosive material that may cause serious chemical burns, material safety data sheets say to wear protective gloves so as not to burn your skin, well when these corrosive based cleaners are applied to floors with the proper dwell time whats there to protect the substrate on the floor from being damaged by continuous use of these harsh chemicals, it dose not matter about dilution rates, its a fact that continuous use of corrosive materials will cause detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use.
Again i am not just talking about high alkaline based floor cleaners but high alkaline based chemical cleaners in general as from continuous use these harsh chemicals will cause detrimental damage to what ever substrate they are used on, and again its from continuous use that the damage is caused. Technology has moved on greatly in our industry and again i know that there are many janitorial suppliers in the UK that have safe and effective cleaning solutions that will not cause detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use. Google is a great tool to find out about the dangers of using high alkaline based cleaning chemicals, and also to point out many safer alternatives which are available.

« **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2013, 12:39:47 pm »

You are still not giving me a straight answer you are just pointing out the obvious. 1000's of people strill use Lithofin and similar sealers which are toxic and give off pungent dangerous odours but it is difficult to get convince everyone to use Aqua Mix Sealing Products, water based, safe & friendly. Likewise you will not switch everyone over to your products either! However I accept that Lithofin is an ewffective sealer when applied correctly but that said I would never use it or ask any of my staff to use it. All I am asking of you is you admit that High Alkaline Cleaners are safe when applied and used correctly.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #15 on:** September 21, 2013, 01:39:46 pm »

We always recommend pH neutral cleaners for continual use. Renovation and restoration work however is a different story.

« **Reply #16 on:** September 21, 2013, 02:42:01 pm »

Kevin come on now just look at the msds for the high alkaline cleaner you are talking about and tell why would i admit that it is a safe product when i know from years of experience that they these types of harsh cleaning chemicals are the furthest thing from being safe to use, also Kevin nowhere in this post did i mention anything about our products, neither did i mention anything about your product, you mentioned that product yourself, if you read again i am warning about the detrimental damage that is caused by the continuous use of high alkaline based cleaning chemicals, this is geared towards the newer guys coming into our industry as i would of wished that someone warned me about their dangers when i joined this industry many years ago. again Kevin i cant see the logic of people using these harsh cleaning chemicals when as i said already there are plenty of Janitorial suppliers in the UK who carry safe and effective alternatives. We are based in Ireland and not the UK.

« **Reply #17 on:** September 21, 2013, 04:29:48 pm »

Tadgh

You are missing my point. I don't care who uses what products all I know is what I am happy with and what works for us and that is high alkaline diluted correctly and then a pH neutral cleaner to maintain the floor.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #18 on:** September 21, 2013, 06:11:47 pm »

Ok Kevin, lets just agree to disagree if you are happy with those type products that is fine, i really should not knock them because they generate plenty of business for us when we have to go in and deep clean the ingrained soils which are driven in to floors from continuous use of high alkaline based floor cleaners, and again from years of making the mistake myself of using such harsh chemicals you might understand why i cant say they are safe to use when i know first hand that they are not, as i have quoted already "People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care"

« **Reply #19 on:** September 22, 2013, 08:16:30 am »

Quote from: Tadgh O Shea on September 21, 2013, 06:11:47 pm

Ok Kevin, lets just agree to disagree if you are happy with those type products that is fine, i really should not knock them because they generate plenty of business for us when we have to go in and deep clean the ingrained soils which are driven in to floors from continuous use of high alkaline based floor cleaners, and again from years of making the mistake myself of using such harsh chemicals you might understand why i cant say they are safe to use when i know first hand that they are not, as i have quoted already "People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care"

Tadgh

OK I have a job coming up in an office block where I need to grind and polish 200M2 ofMarble. I have also agreed to clean their 4 toilets which have a bumped riven porcelain in R11 tile which are absolutely filthy. Normally I would pre wet them and apply diluted Aqua Mix Heavy Duty Tile & Grout Cleaner. We would allow this to dwell for up to an hour in this case agitating it every 20 minutes or so. We would then add a 320 Honing Powder in and scrub / agitate again. We would then extract, then rinse with hot water and pH neutral cleaner and extract again. We will then seal with Aqua Mix Ultra Solve. We know it works because we have done a test on both the porcelain and the marble. So if you put the method on here and how exactly we use your products I will use your total eco friendly stuff. Please invoice me for what I need.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #20 on:** September 22, 2013, 07:11:23 pm »

Hi Kevin, You have requested from us in the past samples of our microcleaning pad technology for deep cleaning hard floors which we were happy to send to you, i had emailed you after to see how you got on with them but you did not even have the courtesy to reply to our email, so as for sending more products over to you we will skip on that one. You have stated more than once that you are very happy with your products for cleaning floors and i respect your decision on that, from my point Kevin on this post i am just trying to let the newer guys coming into our industry be aware of the damage that can be caused to surfaces from continuously cleaning them with high alkaline based cleaning chemicals. And again for the benefits of the newer guys, products that come under the Gras rating (generally regarded as safe) are products with a pH value of between 5 to 10
The pH scale measures how acidic or how alkaline a substance is, a pH of 7 is classed as neutral so a pH value less than 7 is acidic and a pH value greater than 7 is classed as alkaline.
The pH scale is logarithmic and as a result each whole pH value above 7 for example a cleaning product with a pH value of 10 is ten times more alkaline than a product with a pH value of 9, but is a 100 times more alkaline than a product with a pH value of 8. So to Err on the side of caution if you are purchasing cleaning chemicals from your janitorial supplier always check the pH value which will be stated on the msds. again this is geared for newer people who are going to be using cleaning chemicals on a continuous basis on the same surfaces, So Kevin i hope you understand where i am coming from its the continuous use of high alkaline based cleaners used on the same surfaces will lead to detrimental damage being caused to that substrate. If this had been explained to me when i joined the industry many years ago it would of saved me causing lots of detrimental damage to my clients surfaces, so hope that some guys might find this beneficial for the future.

« **Reply #21 on:** September 22, 2013, 07:40:13 pm »

Tadgh

You have misread my post! You don't get it do you? I am going to clean 50M2 of filthy porcelain in toilets using your products. I need enough products to do the job with a method statement to follow. I don' t want your products for nothing! Invoice me for Enough of your products to do the job! Incidentally I answer every e mail so if you didn't get a reply I didn't Get the e mail

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #22 on:** September 22, 2013, 11:00:23 pm »

Kevin, I think you are just trying to be a smart ass now, Why would i say i sent you an email when i have all the proof on our Gmail which stores every email we send and receive and does not lie. I think you misread my last post, i have sent you in the past samples on some of our products for deep cleaning floors, i followed through with an email to see how you found them and out of courtesy you would not even send a reply, if you had sent back an email weather positive or negative on your testing i would be happy to send you an order. I can tell you now again Kevin i will not be sending any products to you again so please refrain from asking for any thank you. now from my end Kevin i have shared some information which i hope can be of benefit in helping some guys make an informed decision when they are purchasing cleaning chemicals from their suppliers.

« **Reply #23 on:** September 22, 2013, 11:52:25 pm »

Tadgh

You reply is out of order and very condescending! Firstly you question my knowledge and now my integrity? I told you that I did not receive your e mail or if it was received it was not read by me personally or it would have been answered!

The rest of your reply confirms my initial thoughts and tells me everything I need to know! I will use our products on this job that were used and worked on the test area! Incidentally when you have more time maybe you can try to explain in detail with evidence how chemically a diluted High Alkalkine Cleaner, dwelling on a floor for under an hour, extracted and then correctly rinsed off and extracted again can damage the surface of a 12mm Through Bodied R11 Porcelain Tile fired at over 1350 degrees making it virtually Fully Vitrified because the R&D done by the lab in the US contradicts and shows no effect or any breakdown on the surface at all repeating the same process over & over! Perhaps you are referring to much softer or more porous materiel???

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #24 on:** September 22, 2013, 11:59:37 pm »

Hi Kevin, I think you are getting it, now can we just leave it there.

« **Reply #25 on:** September 23, 2013, 12:34:10 am »

Ok Kevin, That answer was a bit harsh and i apologize for that as its not my style, again this post was never about fully vitrified surfaces, and i kept making the point about high alkaline chemical cleaners causing detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use, so now thats my last call on this one.

« **Reply #26 on:** September 23, 2013, 08:17:12 am »

Quote from: Tadgh O Shea on September 23, 2013, 12:34:10 am

Ok Kevin, That answer was a bit harsh and i apologize for that as its not my style, again this post was never about fully vitrified surfaces, and i kept making the point about high alkaline chemical cleaners causing detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use, so now thats my last call on this one.

Tadgh

I don't have a problem with you or your posts! In fact I enjoy some of your posts! I have no problem changing to more ecological products either! I only want the best for my staff and clients and we are constantly developing new products and ideas. Don't forget our motto adopted is "Education Before Any Sale" if it weren't I would be a lot richer! Aqua Mix is not really about cleaners they just got developed along the way to compliment the sealers, problem solvers and stone restoration products. Aqua Mix products are primarily "Water Based" hence the name and finally never forget we are talking about a company here that produces products in a US State that probably has amongst the highest safety regulations in the World.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics
Marblelife Ltd

« **Reply #27 on:** September 23, 2013, 07:19:38 pm »

Thanks for your help chaps. Some interesting and thought provoking conversation there. I understand that I have a few ways I can approach this particular beast, and I'm all for offering a 'greener' method of cleaning. Too many times have I walked away from a job feeling as though I have been affected by using a particularly harsh chemical. If I were to use an 'eco' method, any idea on the best solution or chemical to use? I have the equipment to offer the 'scrub' method, so this option may be more financially viable right now...

Thankss.