cleantech

  • Posts: 199
Red marmoleum New
« on: January 18, 2013, 10:33:00 pm »
having stripped and polished this floor with 3 coats i have no gloss. i used johnsons speed stripper and high gloss polish. when stripping the red colour was comming loose on the pad. this happened last time i did this floor but got great gloss last time. any ideas please i am a bit lost on this 1

Griffus

  • Posts: 1942
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2013, 01:13:00 am »
Marmoleum shouldn't really be stripped as such. If and when it has been then it becomes ultra porous and can be a bugger to sort.

You will most likely have to take it back to bare floor and take it from there. Had a Marmoleum problem a few years back where the regular cleaners had been abusing it with high ph cleaners for about 11 years. This was a large area (600 sq metres in a very busy space). I can honestly say it was a nightmare which I wouldn't wish on anyone!

You could try the following in the order listed. This method was passed on to me by the Forbo Tech Team: -

http://www.prochem.co.uk/Product%20Specification%20Sheets/C501.pdf

http://www.prochem.co.uk/Product%20Specification%20Sheets/C255.pdf

http://www.prochem.co.uk/Product%20Specification%20Sheets/R602.pdf

Good luck!

p.s. another useful link: -

http://www.forbo-flooring.co.uk/For-Your-Home/Installation-maintenance/Cleaning-Maintenance/


Mark Lane-Matthews

  • Posts: 303
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 10:07:12 am »
I would have thought it was the speed stripper which can loosen colours,you always need to do a test area with this stuff.

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2013, 10:45:03 am »
Speedstrip can be problematic on marmoleum. In the 90s they had huge problems with it being used as directed on their product. So much so Forbo engaged us to write their care guidelines and form a network of approved contractors for the care and maintenance. That's where they for the Prochem links from as we are local to the head office and were Prochem dealers.

Here is a video of a marmoleum floor that was done, unsuccessfully, using it with the no scrub, no rinse method listed on the bottle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMYHS9tfMhs

Marmoleum is comprised of all natural materials (apart from the polyprop backing on tiles) and therefore presents problems not found on vinyls and rubbers.

Stripper
When using stripper it is important that you test for discoloration. Some colours of Marmoleum can yellow. This is damage to the pigments usually from strippers containing sodium meta silicate and cannot be reversed. Speedstrip can work very well on certain colours but you should always use it like a conventional stripper to avoid problems Ie apply, dwell, agitate, vac, rinse. It is important to check if your stripper should be used with hot or cold water. Speedstrip is solvent boosted so hot water causes the active ingredient to evaporate giving you less bond breaking power. if you can find out the manufacture of the sealer/finish previously applied use the same brand stripper as it has been formulated to break down their finishes so will work quicker. It is normal to have to strip a floor 2 or 3 times to get desired results. Be aware that after you remove the initial coats that the floor has less protection from the pads and stripper so adjust their aggression as required to minimise damage to the floor.

Pad Choice
Modern pad technology such as the HOS Akwastrip, 3M SPP have allowed for chemical free stripping of marmoleum. They also leave the floor smooth unlike hi-pro or black pads. For heavy build up it may still be necessary to use more aggressive pads to break through the topcoats. Colour will bleed during stripping. Don't be overly concerned with this. The floor is homogenous so a light sanding of the surface isn't too much of a problem.

Rinsing
It is important after stripping to use an acid rinse on the floor to neutralise residue that has been absorbed into the floor. My prerence is to spray this on the slurry as soon as i have scrubbed off the polish to reduce alkaline attack on the floor. Or to have it in the solution tank and feed it through as I go prior to vaccing off. I then scrub the floor with my rotary using a blue or red pad to help smooth of scratching from the more aggressive pads and close up the floor slightly.

Neutralising will ensure that your finish isn't stripped from the bottom up afterwards by alkaline residue. Full drying prior to finishing is also essential. On restoration jobs my preference is to leave until the next day before applying top coats.

Sealer
For finishing it is important to use a floor sealer prior to any polish. It has a larger molecular structur and on a porous floor gives a better base for finishing. Some products are classed as self sealing. However, on a heavy restoration I have found acrylic seal first is still the best way when using traditional finishes. Flooding the first coat on is often necessary. Pour on a whole bottle and mop it up from the floor rather than mopping on. This will allow the floor to absorb the maximum amount of sealer. Once this has dried (can take over an hour) buff with a dry blue floor pad then apply a further tight coat using your preferred applicator. Continue applying coats followed by buffing when dry until you start to see it forming uniformly on the surface.

Top Coat
Now apply your chosen floor finish/polish. This will now be able to sit on the surface giving best protection and appearance. Apply each coat at right angles to the last. My preference is to apply 2-3 coats. Buff with a blue pad to meld together and get some heat into the floor to help cure. Finally apply one more thin coat to give best appearance. Always take the sub floor and floor laying into consideration when choosing a top coat. Hardboard outlines, lumps from nails, trowel marks can Detract from your final finish so always go with a lower shine Matt or satin if these exist. A nice flat floor always looks great with a gloss.

When tackling marmoleum I would always question if the floor actually needs to be chemically stripped. The use of neutral detergents and modern pads may be enough to clean up the floor ready for patching in. The only reason I would strip marmoleum is if the top coat is actually discoloured or contaminated with debris etc. applying sealer to patchy areas and buffing until uniform then top coating can often be the answer on a floor that has only been neglected and not mistreated.

Following the restorative works it is imperative that the client uses cold neutral cleaner and buffs the floor periodically to keep the finish strong. I have seen in commercial buildings all the finish being removed in 4 weeks because of mopping with hot hard surface cleaner. Even using urethane fortified acrylic finish. The toughest sacrificial coating available.

Ensure with any stripping job that you qualify possible paint removal from skirtings due to the nature of the products needed for removal and the aggressive scrubbing that may be required at the base boards. Always carry out room protection as normal to around 3 feet high with mask and shield, roll & stroll or equivalent.

With regard to the OPs floor I would try scrubbing back with neutral cleaner and a red pad. If you have a diamond pad like a twister, KGS Flexis, Supershine even better. Then apply a coat of floor sealer, buff with a blue pad then a couple more coats of your finish with a final high speed buff using a red/tan/white/natural fibre pad to finish. A light mist from a trigger spray with your polish at 1:10 with water during the buffing can help build the desired gloss.

Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2013, 02:38:24 pm »
Honing powder is brilliant for these floors and saves hours if work

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2013, 03:17:40 pm »
We always carry some with us these days. Along with sanders and sand paper, PVA glue for filling and some other stuff I am keeping secret  ;)

cleantech

  • Posts: 199
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2013, 09:27:24 pm »
thanks very much for the info a huge help from csuk. i spent a further 8 hours today 2 floors. stripped, flood rinsed neutralised and rinsed again alowed to dry and applied 1 coat of polish all was looking good untill it dried dull. applied a 2nd coat still no gloss 2 days wasted now. csuk what stripper and polish do you recomend

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2013, 10:58:26 pm »
You need to use sealer then finish.
The product isn't getting the chance to build on the surface.
Get some floor seal. I use Prochem Proseal or Chemspec Floor Sealer.
Don't further strip the floor just clean then apply more coats of the sealer. Buff the floor then apply your top coat.

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2013, 11:00:54 pm »
There is nothing wrong with the products you are using. You just need to get the sealer. It's a bit like undercoat for paint.

Personally I use chemspec floor products and Prochem prorinse for neutralising.

Billy Russell

  • Posts: 1620
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2013, 11:22:27 pm »
i'll 2nd jamies advice, chemspec stuff is really good

Tadgh O Shea

Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2013, 11:37:15 pm »
Hi Guys

Tadgh here if its of benefit to anyone we have introduced a solution to this problem.
over the years i have seen so many vinyl composite tiles and floors damaged beyond repair because they have been constantly cleaned with high alkaline floor cleaners or stripped with high alkaline floor strippers.
We have introduced Nano PowerShine for VCT and floors, based on Nanotechnology once applied to any vinyl composite type floor you need never again have to strip the floor finish.
Nano PowerShine is extremely durable and will also make it very easy to maintain vinyl floors once applied. For first application its recommended to apply 3 coats which will leave a nice even wet look finish as it goes on with very light coats, once applied you can clean the vinyl floor with microfiber floor cloths and water or your preferred safe to use cleaning solution, no need to use high alkaline based floor cleaners ever again.
Best of all the Nano PowerShine never has to be stripped, and i mean never after 6 to 12 months depending on foot fall you only need to spray on one application of PowerShine to maintain your vinyl type floor in pristine condition.
We are receiving tremendous feedback from clients all over the world on this new concept for polishing all types of vinyl composite tiles and floors.
If i can be of any further assistance, please just let me know.

Kind regards

Tadgh

cleantech

  • Posts: 199
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2013, 11:46:27 pm »
thanks again csuk. So do i not strip the 2 coats i laid today? if not so i just put down some sealer i have pioneer eclipse first step sealer, buff the floor straight away or when dry?

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2013, 11:48:52 pm »
So can it be used on marmoleum as per the OPs original request?

I also use a permanent product as you can see in the video.
Because of its permanent nature it should only really be used by skilled proficient applicators as removal isn't possible hence the reason for only mentioning traditional products.

I would be interested to trial your product if it is suitable for natural material like marmoleum. Perhaps you could send me more info to jamie@cleaningsystemsuk.com

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2013, 11:49:58 pm »
thanks again csuk. So do i not strip the 2 coats i laid today? if not so i just put down some sealer i have pioneer eclipse first step sealer, buff the floor straight away or when dry?

No more stripping. Give the floor a buff first. Apply the pioneer product then when dry buff further if required.

cleantech

  • Posts: 199
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2013, 11:59:07 pm »
that is music to my ears. i feel i am almost damaging the floor from colour removal when stripping. there was no problem last time i stripped and polished only. the surface must now be porous. will be back to floor tomorrow so with sealer and fingers crossed. CSUK i have been blown away by how much info you have passed on and am very grateful indeed, same goes to all other replies

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2013, 12:09:29 am »
From now on just scrub and overcoat the floor. No need to strip unless it becomes discoloured.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2013, 12:13:07 am »
Hi Jamie

Yes its an excellent product for Marmoleum, i will send you on more information.

regards

Tadgh

cleantech

  • Posts: 199
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am »
will follow your guide from now on  :-[ will white or red do the job in place of blue sorry for all the questions

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2013, 09:58:45 am »
It will be fine. A red or blue generates a little mo heat so can help smooth things out a little between coats. Don't worry if it powders a little and cuts some back.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2013, 06:40:26 pm »
Hi Guys,

Just to follow on from my earlier post these are links to some before and after pictures of floors where the nano powershine was applied this week.

Finished & Untreated Floor

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/55633448/Finished%20Floor%20and%20Untreated%20Floor.JPG

Crest on Floor Pre Application

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/55633448/Crest%20on%20Floor%20Before%20Treatment.JPG

The recommended initial application method is to use three coats, this is the image of the floor after the 3rd application 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/55633448/Crest%20on%20Floor%20after%203rd%20treatment%20of%20Powershine.JPG

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 10:41:28 am »
Hi Tadgh,

Thanks for the sample of the product above.

I am hoping to get a test area done here this weekend or next and will report back.

Jamie.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2013, 06:20:34 pm »
No problem jamie & if you have any questions about the application just give me a call

cleantech

  • Posts: 199
Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2013, 09:31:15 pm »
thanks again jamie floor came out a treat. I would like try this product Tadgh

Tadgh O Shea

Re: red marmoleum
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2013, 10:45:18 pm »
Hi Cleantech

no prob talk soon

Tadgh