macmac

Re: Why?
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2006, 08:00:16 pm »
neil
who made the frame
p.s. i agree with your post :)

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 23658
Re: Why?
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2006, 08:09:19 pm »
When I sold typewriters and word processors to offices I was proud of the brand names I sold - IBM, Olivetti and Canon. The buyers knew them and trusted them. They each had their own strong features (larger memory, build quality, bold print, justified text printing etc) which customers went for. (Funnily enough it was Olivetti and Canon that had more features than IBM.)

When I sold desk top computers I started with Olivetti PC's - the sensible alternative to IBM. Nowadays who cares what make of PC they have? (I don't mean vast integrated systems) They all do the same thing.

IMHO, Waterfed systems are completely unknown to the customer - they don't care whether you have an Ionics logo or "Supaklene" on the side of your van - all they want is a good job from a reliable company and if that's you or me then good for us!
It's a game of three halves!

craig jwc

  • Posts: 1076
Re: Why?
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2006, 08:43:27 pm »
End of the day the job is as good as the person at the end of the pole.

I don't think it matters who's system it is - Spend £160 on a back pack or £10000 on one of these top of the range systems, you can still end up with a bad job if it's not done properly.

Craig

matt

Re: Why?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2006, 10:36:43 pm »
Just over a year ago I bought my 800ltr van system from facelift. The system looks fantastic and the van drives superb. It was money well spent.I had researched what I wanted including the type of van I needed for a Two man set up.

Last year their is no way I would of attempted to go the Diy route due to a lack of confidence. You do get what you pay for. Though Ionics and Brodex are overpriced.

 I have just this weekend completed all the plumbing in my sons van. He is now up and running with wfp.

His entire system as cost under £1,000.00. Which includes a fully fitted stainless steel frame plus fitting in the van. Some posts knock DIY jobs and think they look dead amatuer. Well my fellow window cleaning brethren that illussion is about to be shattered when I post pics of His van.

Its one of the best designed frames I have seen. Its a 400ltr Lay flat tank. The hose reel is bolted on top of the frame on a folded stainless steel sheet to give it the strength to handle a heavy weight. The enginers say you could stand on the sheet metal and it would not give way. The bolt studs were welded on and the enginers made  special brackets to hold the hose reel in place. It as two brackets and two bolts holding the reel in place. When reeling in and out you dont even have to bend your back to do it.

At the buisness end of the frame it as welded stainless steel sheet were the pump, strainer, ON/OFF switch and DI cobra clamp have been attached all on to studs that have been welded to the stainless steel plate.The battery sits in a stainless steel box.

It cost me less for the frame and the enginers fitting it then what Bodex charge just for fitting. How can that be? This firm specializes in stainless steel so they buy in BULK so the frame costs peanuts other then labour charges. Yes it top quality stainless steel. They have used a lot of box section s/steel but unlike Bodex who used to put a plastic end plug into an open section this is all fully sealed with top quality welding.

The only reason I have not took pics yet is because I am a perfectionist and there are a couple of little things I want to change before photos are displayed.

My sons reaction was. Dad I have a better looking van system then you now, which tells you you dont have to spend a fortune to make it look right.

The enginering company threw the first frame away because it was a touch too big. The frame fits it like a glove but theres room for the tank to expand at the sides.

If you want the frame making for this type of tank the company would welcome any orders.

I am just going over the top on trying to make the point that you dont need to spend mega money for a good looking system. If you want to feed the Coparate Ionics Brand then thats your choice.

Nel



look forward to your pics :)

its nice to see some1 who has brought a "off the shelf system" have open eyes and see whats happened

the "off the shelf outfits" make ALOT of money selling systems, why would you want to pay some1 to do something you can do and save enough money for 2 weeks in the sun

matt

Re: Why?
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2006, 10:38:01 pm »

IMHO, Waterfed systems are completely unknown to the customer - they don't care whether you have an Ionics logo or "Supaklene" on the side of your van - all they want is a good job from a reliable company and if that's you or me then good for us!


Oh no, you will start them off again

"But the ionics saleman told me i would make much more than using a superclean system" it must be true  ::)

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: Why?
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2006, 08:42:19 am »
Hi Neil100,

The way you have gone for your son is a good idea, but imagine now you decide that it is so good that you are going to go into business selling the set-up. Add up how much you would have to charge to make it pay even half as well as window cleaning. Calculate how many hours of time you have spent  and then you have to make a decent 'mark-up' on your products you supply. You would suddenly realise that the likes of 'Brodex', 'Omnipole', 'Facelift' and even our own vanmounts are all quite reasonable compared to what you would have to charge.

For me I am still a firm believer in the DIY route, I would always set-up a vehicle the way I want it. Yes it is cheaper but it also means I get a system that works exactly the want I need it to. I do spend the money where it is needed, I have recently had made a customised baffled tank with matching hose reel drip trays and pump mounting brackets, which was £450 well spent.

 Once you know what you are doing you can install from scratch a full DIY system in about 5 hours including setting up the RO unit. This isn't a life changing amount of time.

BUT for those who do not have the know how or time a good fitted system will always make sense. If you are running a large WC outfit 20+ vans you simply do not have time to DIY, so you go to Ionics and you lease 20 units and have them fitted into your van and off you go. All of it is tax deductible and 'litigation' proof safe for your employees. Are you stupid,,,,no just running your business and no doubt making much more money than any of us.

Just my thoughts,

Alex

Davew

Re: Why?
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2006, 09:01:21 am »
Interesting thread this, the main point I wanted to find out was wether there were any differences in components used. The big manufacturers will tell me 'you get what you pay for' and the 'cheaper systems are rubbish'. Now I'm so new to this that I don't know if thats true - they all look very similar to me with very few moving parts and little difference from one to another. I had a look at one very smart system and would love to go for it but it would take a very large round and an awefull lot of work for a single operater to make enough to pay for it in my opinion. The d.i.y route looks brilliant - prvided you know exactly what you want (I don't). So for me it looks like I'll be going down the first option but not with the most expensive system, there seem to be other ways to cut the price too. For me the system has to work from the minute I start and be problem free.
                                      Thanks Dave

Paul Coleman

Re: Why?
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2006, 09:15:02 am »
Personally I prefer not to go the DIY route.  I would rather pay someone to do it for me.  I would be concerned that I hadn't secured the tank adequately and I the time and messing about involved would be better spent earning the extra to pay someone to do it much more quickly than I would.  This is also why I pay to have my vehicle maintained professionally.
However, now that I have a van mounted system, I know the things that I like about it and the things I would wish to be a bit different about it.  With that knowledge, on any subsequent systems, I would ask for small changes.  Nothing major - just little things to make life even easier.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Why?
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2006, 05:24:39 pm »
I think its important to remember that what yo uneed is relatively basic.

1, Battery. 
If we are talking about a van mount, then a decent quality leisure battery can be got for between £30 and £80, the more you pay then hopefully the better the quality of the Battery, but a good one is still not going to be that expensive.

2, R/O + filters

You can go for a top of the range 40.40 jobbie and spend the best part of a grand or more on the R/O, the filters and large DI cannister, or yo ucan go for one of the small ones from R/O man and so on.
My own is one such, it has 2 small membranes, a 1 litre DI vessal, ditto with the particulate filter and activated charcoal filter.
It reduces my tap TDS (aproxx 150-180 ppm) down to .001 ppm prior ro going through my DI vessal.
It will fill up my 1000 litre holding  tank from empty in a couple of days.
In almost 3 years I've never ran out of water.
The filters are cheap to replace and I've a bag of resin that never seems to go down, been using the same bag for well over 12 months.

Pump.

Er, what can you, they are cheap anyway, and last a long time.

Poles.

Mine are the cheapest on the market I believe (and one of the lightest) The Unger poles, can take me up over 40ft (wouldn't recommend them though if you do a lot of work at that height)
Poles are are old as the rest of the system and still going strong.

Brush.
Up until a month ago I was using the same brush day in and day out, the 15inch Salmon...just the one brush is all I had, and that brush is still fine.
But again, brushes aren't expensive and they last years...er...except the Ionics ones I'm told :-\

Hose.

Well microbore or standard, even for 100m of either it isn't that expensive...even the top quality stuff.

Hosereel.

On this point I'll concede that expensive is way superior.
I started with the hoselock reels, cheap as chips.
But compare that to the big expensive ones and there is no comparison, jsut about the best upgrade I did was going for the Cleantech version of the all steel reel...but even then, it isn't that expensive.

Van tank.

Well the specialist tanks for carrying liquid are not that cheap, unless you go for an 100 litre IBC that is, but you have to have a very comprehensive frame for those as the walls of the IBC tanks are paper thin by comparison to the other kind.

I didn't put together a DIY system, mine was from Peter Fogwill, started out with a basic trolley system and upgraded to a van mount.
Where possible I've used Peter as my supplier, he supplied my tank for the van (and his price was little different than from getting it direct from a specialist tank supplier)
And Peter also supplied the frame too.

I was originally up and running for about £1,500 and I've spent about a grand or so since, upgrading to a van mount, Fibreglassing the van floor, getting a 1000 litre holding tank, submersible transfer pump and buying 100m of tricoflex hose and a large steel hosereel and so on.

But the production end isn't that complex and doesn't have to be very expensive.

If you have the funds then go for the big boys stuff,...it sure looks purdy 8)

At some point I'm going to outgrow my small R/O and will need to upgrade to something that will produce the water quicker, but in 3 months I'll have had it three years, and I've not outgrown it yet.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Why?
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2006, 07:06:37 pm »
The best thing about going DIY is that you know how to fix anything if it goes wrong.
I take Alex's point about costing the labour, mark up etc, but if you have the time and Know how, DIY's the way to go. Dai

macmac

Re: Why?
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2006, 08:18:59 pm »
to make it simple
you can spend a grand and diy (excluding poles, as these vary and are a personal choice), or go middle , -get someone on here to do a top job at a very reasonable price ( maybe 3k ish, but well worth it) , or go balls out and be stupid and go and pay 10k for 2k worth of components. it's up to you . they all do the same job, and even if a cheapy system breaks down, its only a few quid to mend it (most individual components are cheaply purchased on their own).

a 10k system only does EXACTLY the same as a cheaper alternative, can you be arsed to save the extra 7/8k?? thats up to you!!!!

YES, the companies that make these systems do have to make money, and if you've got plenty then buy one, its the easiest way, but most people dont, so go the former two ways about it.

whichever way you go, (if done correctly) you'll end up with the same thing- PURE WATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

matt

Re: Why?
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2006, 08:36:21 pm »
to make it simple
you can spend a grand and diy (excluding poles, as these vary and are a personal choice), or go middle , -get someone on here to do a top job at a very reasonable price ( maybe 3k ish, but well worth it) , or go balls out and be stupid and go and pay 10k for 2k worth of components. it's up to you . they all do the same job, and even if a cheapy system breaks down, its only a few quid to mend it (most individual components are cheaply purchased on their own).

a 10k system only does EXACTLY the same as a cheaper alternative, can you be arsed to save the extra 7/8k?? thats up to you!!!!

YES, the companies that make these systems do have to make money, and if you've got plenty then buy one, its the easiest way, but most people dont, so go the former two ways about it.

whichever way you go, (if done correctly) you'll end up with the same thing- PURE WATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

indeed

if anything breaks, its going to be the pump, you have built the system, you know how it was put together, so you change the pump

on the note of pumps, i allways have a spare, as 1 day off from work is 1 day too many, thus i allways have a spare pump box in the car

of course you could DIY and spend the other 7  / 8 K on a rather nice holiday ;) i know what i would do ;)

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 23658
Re: Why?
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2006, 09:57:54 pm »
My story is almost exactly the same as Ian's (tho' I'm not as experienced as he is by a long chalk) - Unger poles, little R/o, started with a trolley from Peter Fogwill - built it up - loads of help from this forum.

Stick around save a lot - £1500 will get you going with a good system and you can use a trailer/estate to start with.
It's a game of three halves!