[neil100]

C.T.S. It means Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. Carpal tunnel syndrome is caused by irritation of the median nerve at the wrist.

I had it 10 years ago when I blockpaved my drive. It is bloody painfull, the fingers get the pins and neddles sensation, the fingers and hands swell up causing the hand to feel numb, and I get a constant sharp pain in the tricep muscle.

I started 3 days ago with wfp and have endured the last 2 nights with incresing pain.I got up at 4am this morning and 5am yesterday morning. I am fine dureing the day, but am paying the price at night time.

The Doc's advice would be to stop doing whatever is causeing the problem to reoccure and rest. I can only keep going for a while and hope it goes away, If not, my health takes priorioty, and I may be forced to sell my new van system on and go back traditinal,.

As anyone else faced this problem?

Nel.

[H h20]

O dear,what a way to start,that is real bad luck,have you looked up any cures on the internet,there must be something you can do,it seems an awful thing to happen when you`ve spent all that money aswell,i hope you can sort it,all the best,Gaz

[H h20]

Here you go,i don`t know anything about it myself but may be worth a look,Gaz
http://www.jointpainremedy.com/

[Paul Coleman]

C.T.S. It means Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. Carpal tunnel syndrome is caused by irritation of the median nerve at the wrist.

I had it 10 years ago when I blockpaved my drive. It is bloody painfull, the fingers get the pins and neddles sensation, the fingers and hands swell up causing the hand to feel numb, and I get a constant sharp pain in the tricep muscle.

I started 3 days ago with wfp and have endured the last 2 nights with incresing pain.I got up at 4am this morning and 5am yesterday morning. I am fine dureing the day, but am paying the price at night time.

The Doc's advice would be to stop doing whatever is causeing the problem to reoccure and rest. I can only keep going for a while and hope it goes away, If not, my health takes priorioty, and I may be forced to sell my new van system on and go back traditinal,.

As anyone else faced this problem?

Nel.

I'm so sorry to hear that Neil.  Let's hope it disappears of its own accord as your body adapts.  I've found that I get aches in different areas now too.  I seem to have graduated from occasional thigh cramps, intermittent left shoulder pain (I'm left handed), and occasional left hip pain (with trad cleaning) to lower back and neck ache (with WFP cleaning).  I am still adapting though.
If it persists, would taking more frequent, longer breaks be any help to you.  Also, some people tend to pole one handed using their other hand as a pole guide and switch it around every few minutes (thanks to Con at Omnipole for that tip).  Is that likely to help maybe?

[Paul Coleman]

Here you go,i don`t know anything about it myself but may be worth a look,Gaz
http://www.jointpainremedy.com/

Hi Gaza.
It wouldn't be right for me to knock something that I haven't tried I suppose but disease really dragsa the moneymaking scammers out of the woodwork.  Alright, it might just work and, so long as the only possible harm is a smallish hit on the bank balance, I suppose it may be worth a try.
It seemed funny that "emu oil" was mentioned on the website because one of the more common names given to certain remedies is "snake oil".
You see, I've been down this route before.  I had a potentially serious illness a while back (fortunately now cured), and I sought extra help outside the medical profession.  I was apalled at the grosser side of human nature that I witnessed in such circumstances.  There were people trying to sell me stuff that I knew would be no good whatsoever.  Indeed, in one case, it could actually have caused me harm.  I did my research though.  There are a lot of nasty people out there who are prepared to cheat sick people out of their money.
I'm not saying that this is the case with the website you mentioned and I think it's really decent of you to look for it for Neil.  I'm just saying buyer beware !!!

[Jeff Brimble]

Sounds like same prob as RSI but in different place. I have cup rotation injury CRI which developed into Frozen shoulder which spread to both shoulder areas then neck and down one arm,  had it since February.
If you are only doing upstairs it only should reduce the ammount you use the pole. I would suggest a course of muscle building of the whole upper body using weights under instruction at a Gym. Resting RSI will not help - even a holiday.
If its not working for you I wouldnt jack it in, I would think seriously about employing a young lad to do the upstairs with the pole, starting soon.


ps. You also need the lightest pole and brush head in the universe. (As do we all )
 

[neil100]

I have been doing upstairs and down with wfp. But I think I will do upstairs only with wfp,and do traditional down stairs for now. With useing the pole I must be putting a lot more stress on the wrist itself.

I have been searching the net this morning, I am going to order some Freederm ac cream, It contains Emu oil, Glucosamine, and MSM. iT IS SUPPOSED TO CURE cts AND ANY JOINT PAIN.

I am going to town today and am going  to get a neporene wrist support with magnets in, if I can find anyone that sells them. Just to help lock the wrist in position.

I find it so strange that I did not suffer from C T S when useing traditonal methods in w/c, I use a 18" squegee and 18" appliccator, so thier is pressure on the wrists when turning the squegee on the glass.

My son normally works with me, But as just gone to Lanzarote for 5 weeks. But Asking him to do the tops with wfp is an option when he comes back.

I just feel gutted, I never thought C T S would be a problem.

Thanks for the replys guys, It helps strangley enough.

Regards Nel.

[Mike Hunt]

Ive got same kind of problems but with my knees.
Im only 27 and i keep getting really bad pains in my left knee cap.
Ive always had this habbit of clicking my knees and i think may be the cause.
Ive almost got my wfp system together and am looking forward to giving my knees a rest.

Neil this might be a good oppertunity to employ someone else.Let them do the hard work and you can spend more time getting more work.
Just a thought.

[H h20]

I`m sorry Neil,i did`nt read any of it ,as i said i don`t know anything about it,i just did a search on google and that was the first thing that came up,and ofcourse me not thinking you probably have looked yourself,i hope you can get it sorted,all the best, Gaz

[Morph]

Sorry to hear your problem Neil.  It's good that you've come right out with it on here.  Sometimes too many wfp users talk as if miracles have happened since they got their magic wand.
Anyway, I'm not a very fit or healthy 51 year old.  I've been using wfp for about 3 months now, and I'm getting joint and muscle pains that I'm not happy about, but I'm able to keep going.
I've known people with your problem CTS.  If you can stop it flaring up that would be great.  I saw the picture of your van setup you posted the other day, it looks too good for you to fall at the first hurdle.
I remember when I started w/c 18 years ago, after about 6 months I was close to giving up, the pains in my wrists and thumb joints from constant swivelling with big applicators and squeegees was unbearable.  I had physio, painkillers and those wrist support things that brace your wrists so you can't do much.  I went on like that for about another 6 months!  I really thought that's it I've had it!  I never really got better, I just got used to it and the muscles around just compensated I think.  When it's very cold my wrists and saddle joint in thumbs really give me a hard time, but here I am still at it.  
Probably hasn't helped much for you, all I'm saying is; persevere, get some medication like you're doing, and don't go hammer and tong at it, you may well get used to it and work round it.  
Wish you well mate.

Pj

[Andrew McCann]

Hiya Nel.

I am so sorry to see whats happened to you.

My wife had CTS and I saw how it affected her. She was lucky and time took care of the worst of the symptoms. Good ideas about strapping your wrist etc and only doing upper floors for now. I got the usual aches and pains when I switched to WFP but like most my body soon adapted and am fine with it now.

One kind of last resort suggestion for you. When my wife was diagnosed as having CTP she was told that there is an operation available if the symptoms are bad. I dont know what the long term outcome of this op is but it may be something worth talking to your Doc about if the problem persists.

Sometimes life throws us a curver.. always at the worst possible time so it seems but I reckon you are a resourcefull and determined type of person and I am sure you will come up with a viable solution mate.

All the very best to you mate.

Andrew

[squeaky-clean 1]

hi

i have had a similar problem with my joints at first i thought it was arthriti and carrid on working doing w/c ,in july we started wfp and as a mother of 5 boys am very busy at home two of the boys are 1 & 2yrs old only ten month apart i was carrying both babies at the same time in and out of child minders school and around house, the pain got very intens and after 6 months i couldnt even lift a kettle.
I went to the doctors and he told me that i infact had tenis elbow which i think is the same as you have or very similar i have had to take two months of work so far and am on tablets from doctors could be worth a visit for you the tablets im am on are  ECCOXLAC/Etodolac 300mg

i was not working as many hours as you do but am very busy mum.
we all have to make a living but i am lucky as i work with my husband and eldest son so our work carried on please get it sorted as wfp is much safer and stops us women worrying about our men up ladders all day (H&S first)

Belinda

[The Fox]

I was tested for that but it turned out to be a prolapsed disc in my neck But on a positive note a friend of mine as just had a operation to correct CTS they were of work for 2 weeks for each hand ( she is a Cook) so it can be fixed. My advice get down the Doctors and have the operation. 

[Stephen@Belper]

Hi Niel
I have cubitol; tunnel syndrome. Same thing with the same nerve just at the elbow instead of the wrist. My first week with wfp I was in agony with it and thought I may not be able to carry on with it. after the first weekend after that week it was fine and Iv'e not really had any more trouble since, probbaly less than I was getting with trad anyway. I also have tendonitis in one wrist which is imflamation of the tendons where they go throug the wrist, again an rsi injury, when this flares up I take glucosamine. this has an anti infamatory effect like ibuprofen but better and it si a natural product so you dont get the side effects too. You need to take it for a couple of months before it really hs its full effect and you need 1500 mg a day.but it does it work. I would have given up window cleaning a long time ago with out it.
Regards stephen

[Andrew McCann]

Hi Niel
I have cubitol; tunnel syndrome. Same thing with the same nerve just at the elbow instead of the wrist. My first week with wfp I was in agony with it and thought I may not be able to carry on with it. after the first weekend after that week it was fine and Iv'e not really had any more trouble since, probbaly less than I was getting with trad anyway. I also have tendonitis in one wrist which is imflamation of the tendons where they go throug the wrist, again an rsi injury, when this flares up I take glucosamine. this has an anti infamatory effect like ibuprofen but better and it si a natural product so you dont get the side effects too. You need to take it for a couple of months before it really hs its full effect and you need 1500 mg a day.but it does it work. I would have given up window cleaning a long time ago with out it.
Regards stephen

WOW glad you posted that about the old tendonitis Stepen.  I have it and it can get real bad sometimes. Funnily enough worse using trad than with WFP.  I havent had a bad flare up for a few months now but I also thought about having to give up cleaning the windows myself. Cheers for that mate. Where do you get glucosamine?

Are you from the belper with the big old building that either is or was selling all brand name clothes and shoes at very reduced prices?  Belper used to be on my patch when I was a slave to stress and Rank Xerox.

Andrew

[neil100]

Thanks again,

Its suprising how many of us suffer with diffrent ailments in w/c. Which ever method we use in w/c the work involves such a lot of diffrent muscle groups and diffrent range of body movements that any weakness in your own body will come to the fore.

Anyway, I have been to town and my right wrist is being supported by a breathable neoprene support wrap. Which I will now allways wear for work.

For those that have joint issues, I would recommend BLUE EASE CREAM. I have just rubbed the first lot of cream into my wrists and in the last 5 mins the pins & neddles sensation I have had in my finger ends all day has stopped. The cream is on special offer at HOLLAND AND BARRATTS FOR £4.98. It normally retails at £9.99. In the shop they said it was fantastic stuff for joints and it is the first time ever that it as been reduced.

It as many ingrediants, but the 3 main ingrediants it uses are:-

1. EMU OIL.   The Aborigines Used Emu Oil For Centuries As A Valued Medicine!

Modern scientific studies from around the world confirm Emu oil naturally contains high levels of linolenic acid (a substance known to ease muscle aches and joint pain including arthritis)... and... oleic acid which provides a local anti-inflammatory effect.

According to Dr. Margaret C. Craig-Schmidt, an Associate Professor in the Department of Nutrition and Food Science at Auburn University, she found the following:

"I learned that this oleic fatty acid is a known enhancer of transport of bio-active compounds in the skin. In other words, the high presence of oleic acid in the emu oil may be one of the reasons that it is able to penetrate the skin to a large degree and at the same time be able to carry active compounds through the skin where they can have an effect on the body."
 

Pharmacist and oil researcher Allen Strickland of Alabama discovered the penetrating effect of emu oil may be related to its non-phosphorous composition.

Strickland says since our skin contains no phosphorous it's "programmed" to keep phosphorous from penetrating. However, emu oil contains no phosphorous so...

It Penetrates Right Through!This may be the very reason why almost all pain relief applications don't work. They simply do not penetrate the skin deep enough to reach the effected area.Emu oil does.

Dr. Hobday's 10-year clinical study of emu oil showed that it can be used effectively to:Reduce pain, swelling and stiffness most evident where the joint is close to the skin surface: hands, feet, knees, elbows. And... to relieve recent bruising and muscle pain where injury is relatively superficial such as sports related muscle strains.

2.GLUCOSAMINE.    3. METHYLSULFONYLMETHANE. or ( MSM )

You also need to combine other natural products including Glucosamine and MSM (methylsulfonylmethane).These products also help with pain and inflammation... but more importantly... they lubricate the joints in your body and rebuild damaged cartilage.

Glucosamine is made from the shells of shellfish and refined corn. It stimulates cartilage cells and synthesizes glucosaminoglycans and proteoglycans -- chemicals that help to repair and rebuild worn-out joints.They also permit cartilage to flex and absorb physical shock while -- at the same time -- suppressing destructive chondrocytes from breaking down cartilage.

In fact, for 20 years Glucosamine has been clinically proven to provide these main benefits:

Slows progression of osteoarthritis
Eases osteoarthritis and joint pain
Rejuvenates synovial fluid
Promotes healthy and flexible joints
Helps body to heal itself
Lubricates joints
And continually bathes joints in a healthy protective fluid that builds essential glucosaminoglycans and proteoglycans
 
MSM Is One Of The Latest Health Breakthroughs!
A natural sulfur compound, MSM is found in all living things. Actually, it's the third most prominent compound in our bodies behind water and sodium.

Basically, MSM is an essential dietary sulfur almost overlooked by scientists and recently isolated by Robert Hershler and Dr. Stanley Jacob of the University of Oregon Medical School.

Unlike the bad sulfurs (e.g., sulfa, sulfate, sulfite and sulfide) the sulfur in MSM, called sulfonyl, is as safe and as important in your diet as Vitamin C.

Your body needs this nutritional element because it:

Makes cell walls permeable
Allows water and nutrients to flow freely into cells
Allows water and toxins to properly flush out
Works with Vitamin C to build healthy new cells
Stimulates growth of healthy skin, hair and nails
Provides a flexible bond between cells
Ultimately, MSM ensures healthy connective tissue... healthy joint function... proper enzyme activity and hormone balance... proper function of the immune system... and... increases athletic stamina and elimination of muscle soreness.

So fellow joint sufferers get it while you can at that price. I will keep you posted how I go on this  week. If the cream works I will proclaim its healing properties to the masses. It is going to be wfp tops only till my son comes back of his Hols if the pain gets no worse. I will not give up without a fight.

Thanks to you all for your replys. You have helped by lifting my spirit.

Nel.

[preston powerblast]

I for years have suffered from RSI.
Sometimes the pain gets unbearable, but I still soldier on and keep taking the painkillers.
When it gets too bad I go to the docs who refers me to the hospital and they give me a cortazone (dont know if I have spelt it right)  injection.
Within minutes its gone and then I usually have a  pain free year or so.

[dai]

When we work traditional we use both hands equally, well most of us do anyway.
We are ambidexterous to a large degree. When we go on the pole we tend to forget about this and right handers have their left hand up the pole and their right hand on the bottom. We work like this all day. Why? If we were to change stance and work with the right hand up the pole it would equalise muscle use. If you have C.T.S in your right wrist, try working with your right wrist up the pole. or vice versa if it's in the left. your upper hand can be held straighter and the nerves wont get trapped in the carpal tunnel.
You can obtain special splints from your doctor that keep the hand and wrist parrallel. You would have to change your poling grip to accomadate this but it could be an answer to your problem without resorting to surgery. Dai

[Morph]

Well I'm heading down to Holland and Barrets for some Emu oil.

I gotta be honest here, I have never heard of a single Emu having CTS or RSI!!
It's gotta be good.

[Stephen@Belper]

Hi Andrew
you can get Glucosamine from a health shop, any of them should have it. Yes I live in Belper with the old mills. i think you are refering to the De Bradlei mill factory shops, and they do have some good buys.
regards stephen

[Paul Forster]

the operation to corect is simple and done under local anhisthetic. Next door had it done and was back working as electrician in 3 weeks

[windows_chepstow]

I hope I'm not going off on too much of a tangent here, but I've read on this site that the BWCA teaches a method of using the WFP in such a manner that it's your legs that do much of the work, not your arms or shoulders.

I'm not sure if this would make it easier on your wrist.

I'm also not sure if this would work for you.

Can anyone elucidate my post?

[Roy Harding]

Yes you walk in and out from the window this moves the brush up and down without moving your arms.

Roy

[neil100]

Had A practice today.

I think the problem is starting in my upper arm, Around the tricep muscle, So I could be trapping a nerve in there which is then affecting my wrist.

Its when you have an awkward window were you are trying to do it from the side at a very bad angle that really hurts. I am not to bad going straight up and down.

I do try and walk with the pole, keeping my right hand cupping the bottom of the pole near my waist line. I had some excellent demos on how to use a pole saftely. But if you have a bush or a wall or some obstacle behind you it is not allways possible.

I know the pole is too bendy that i've got,(EXTENDER) and I'm looking to replace it asap, with a good 18' carbon fibre pole if I can find someone to make it at the right price. Or the ego-lite firbeglass pole.

i HAVE BEEN GOING FOR IT, SOMETIMES 5HRS WITHOUT A STOP. aFTER TAKE A FEW KIT-KATS WITH ME.

nEL.

[Paul Coleman]

Yes you walk in and out from the window this moves the brush up and down without moving your arms.

Roy

This is what I was shown too.  What may help even more is that holding the pole can often (but not always) be achieved without gripping too hard.  The technique involves supporting the base of the pole on the palm while using the other hand as a guide.  Another way I try now - which does involve gripping more - is to grip with one hand and use the other as a guide.  The advantage to this over the first method is that it's easier to switch hands while still working from the same side of the body.  Personally, I think I would find it very difficult to hold the pole on the other side of my body.  I think the first method I mentioned may be better for Neil.  I tend to chop and change so that the overall load is spread around over time.

[poleman]

Neil, not sure what poles you are using at the moment, but there is some new poles on the market that state they are 33% lighter. Personal speaking know where you are coming from with regards to pain as I have AS and will have to live with this for the rest of my life   http://www.brodexbms.co.uk/assets/waterfedpoles-ad.pdf

Andy 

[jon adams]

All this highlights the fact that window cleaning and our climate does not mix well. anyone with over 15 years of using arms above heads is fighting a losing battle, thats why most sane people with qualifications dont choose wc as a long term career. Also im afraid that using wfp will excaberate these problems
Jon

[Jeff Brimble]

Neil no time to elaborate but cupping at waist height is too high you need the pole base to be about knee height and put your lower hand lower than below the hip.

[neil100]

Just thought I would let you know how I got on this week.

I am still suffering with CTS. But the pains not as intense as that first week. I have done 4 1/2 full days this week with wfp. I took Tuesday off because of rain, but did a 280 mile round trip to get my faulty flowjet pump exchanged and fitted at Facelift in Derbyshire. They had also got my Shurflow Backpack swapped as it had a faulty switch.

I had planned to do downstairs Traditional this week and wfp tops, but I did up and downs with wfp. I want to get the first month out of the way, First Cleans are a real pain, But I know doing a very good job on the frames first cleans will pay dividends in the long run.

I timed myself doing my own windows with wfp today, I was not rushing just going nice and steady And it took me 27mins. It normally takes me 40 mins Traditional.
I have to say the finnish with wfp was impressive. I may have had a couple of spots for the entire house which is a vast improvment on the last clean.

So for the 3rd week ahead, I hope the pain does not get any worse, The pain has gone on my left arm, Its only the right arm  that is giveing me concern. I will keep rubbing in the BLUE EASE cream, it does seam to be helping in reducing the pain.
I put it on in the morning and my arms seam to be on fire while I am working, A bit like heat rub.

I think I have inflamed some tendons in my right tricep which is affecting the blood flow into my hand. Though it seams to be a bit brighter on the Horizon with wfp.
Thanks fot the tips.

Nel.

[AuRavelling79]

Is any of this down to the wrist actions in changing the pole lengths (undoing the collars etc rather than the actual motion of using the pole?)

[neil100]

No. I think it is with the repetitive strain working with the poles at hight. which is worse on really awkward windows were the pole is at an angle.

On reflection I strained my right tricep muscle in September when hammering away at some concrete, which hurt like hell for a month. So I think with all the arm work it as flared up again.

I am sure that CTS is secondery to what is happening with my Tricep muscle. If my Triceps hurt it sets off CTS in my wrist and Hand.

Lifting the Vikan Brush to rinse an upstairs window puts additional strain on the right tricep.

Nel.

[simbo]

could you not try to fashion some sort of sling to releive some of the weight, not sure how but am sure i could find a way, as have a few joint probs myself
best of luck simb0

[mark dew]

have you tried yoga? I had scooter accident when i was 17. Bruised both cartilage in knees. For 7 years i woke up everyday with stiff, painful knees. Enrolled on a yoga class for 1 hour a week. Did 30 minutes a night at home on my own. (Kept it up for a year) I can count on 1 hand the amount of times i've hand painful knees in the last 14 years.
Don't let the adverts for yoga put you off. The people pictured in strange poses are the ones who have been doing it for years.
Enrol on a yoga class and explain your situation to the instructor.
You will notice a vast improvement in yourself after 1 month of 30 minutes practice a night.
What's more it is free to do. Though i would highly recommend an instructor to hold you back at the beginning because everyone tries to stretch further than necessary and this strains the body.
Yoga is about relaxing the body to stretch. And this takes guidance at 1st.
As with any medical condition you need to get professional advice but i sincerely believe you can relieve your situation within a month for just 30 minutes a night and a 1 hour class with instructor once a week.