[Mike Halliday]

just going out for tea will give my side of the story when I get back...... but  I would like  your thoughts on the matter, just to say its not as black & white as it seems

[Neil Jones]

Would like to hear your side of the story. My view is, how long you where there is irrelevant, gets on my goat when people comment on self employed peoples hourly rate without considering overheads. However if you have done the job quick and left a mess then that isn't acceptable (I don't know whether you did or didn't), he/she should also give you chance to rectify any problems caused by pressure washing before using someone else, she hasn't done this so doesn't really have a leg to stand on. Have you been back to view the job? Was it the cleaning that caused damage?
As for him/her saying that they aren't usually one to complain then I reckon thats a load of tosh. Also i'm guessing she paid you, if you weren't there when she got back did she do it before or after the clean, if she did it after then surely she walked round to view the work carried out.

[Simon@Pristine Pathways]

There are so many questions, before I give you my thoughts it would probably be best to post your side of the story first.
Simon

[Neil Jones]

also 15th May the work was carried out? Nearly two months later she is asking for compensation?

[Neil Jones]

If she thought it was likely that the sand would go then why is she mentioning it?

[Matt Gibson]

The first thing i tell the customer before i start (usually at the quote stage) if the slabs are pointed is that if the pointing is already loose, then some may be blown out. They either accept this, or dont.

[G O Cleaning]

The first thing i tell the customer before i start (usually at the quote stage) if the slabs are pointed is that if the pointing is already loose, then some may be blown out. They either accept this, or dont.

ditto, ref the pointing depends what reassurance you gave her / him, as for any mess they should of given you the opportunity to put it right. time issue simply ask customer if they would of paid more of the job overrun 

[Mike Halliday]

Various elements to compliant.

1) how long it took. I did not say it would take 'the best part of a day' when she asked how long it would I told her....

"until I get started I don't know how easy or hard the cleaning would be so can't really say how long it will take"

 ( this is my stock answer when ever I'm asked " how long will it take" )

  but I did say.....  "this is the only job I have booked into diary on the day so I've plenty of time"  this where she has got the idea it would take a day.

The time the job took is irrelevant as she is paying a price I quoted for the work not a set amount of time.

My son finished the work as I had another job to quote, he did an excelent job and when I went back 3 days later to pick up the cheque she was happy with the work, she did mention the window were messy for which I apologised, she did'nt seem too bothered.

2) the resanding. When I quoted for the work I mentioned that it may need resanding at an extra cost and we could discuss it after the cleaning..... When I went back it was never mentioned. if at any time she had wanted it resanding I would have done it. It would be a 30 min job and she lives 15 minutes away, no trouble to me at all.

3)damage to the pointing. The patio was so dirty the exact state of the pointing could not be seen but I started the clean and if we were causing any damage I would have known.

 If I had caused the damage she should have contacted me straight away so I had the opportunity to put it right, if the cut slabs have become loose over time then it's the fact she did'nt allow me to rectify it before they loosened that has caused the subsequent problem.

The only real compliant within this letter is we did'nt clean the windows, my son washed then down but they dried 'spotty' everything else is wrong.

[chris scott]

There is no excuse for s**t up the windows and doors (if there was).
I always explain before hand that any loose pointing that has already failed will be removed in the cleaning process..pointing that is sound will be unaffected by the process.
Sand should have been replaced and i take this into account when quoting although i never tell the customer this.
The builder would of need to inspect the job before cleaning took place to identify if the damage was caused by the clean...re compensation. If most of the pointing had failed (for what ever reason) and i was quoting i would recommend all of it came out to do the job correctly.
It does not matter how long it took you to do the job ... as long as it was done to a proper standard.
I would question also why it took her/him so long to complain

[Kev Martin]

Various elements to compliant.

1) how long it took. I did not say it would take 'the best part of a day' when she asked how long it would I told her....

"until I get started I don't know how easy or hard the cleaning would be so can't really say how long it will take"

 ( this is my stock answer when ever I'm asked " how long will it take" )

  but I did say.....  "this is the only job I have booked into diary on the day so I've plenty of time"  this where she has got the idea it would take a day.

The time the job took is irrelevant as she is paying a price I quoted for the work not a set amount of time.

My son finished the work as I had another job to quote, he did an excelent job and when I went back 3 days later to pick up the cheque she was happy with the work, she did mention the window were messy for which I apologised, she did'nt seem too bothered.

2) the resanding. When I quoted for the work I mentioned that it may need resanding at an extra cost and we could discuss it after the cleaning..... When I went back it was never mentioned. if at any time she had wanted it resanding I would have done it. It would be a 30 min job and she lives 15 minutes away, no trouble to me at all.

3)damage to the pointing. The patio was so dirty the exact state of the pointing could not be seen but I started the clean and if we were causing any damage I would have known.

 If I had caused the damage she should have contacted me straight away so I had the opportunity to put it right, if the cut slabs have become loose over time then it's the fact she did'nt allow me to rectify it before they loosened that has caused the subsequent problem.

The only real compliant within this letter is we did'nt clean the windows, my son washed then down but they dried 'spotty' everything else is wrong.

Mike

I don't see the problem!  As long as everything is in your written quote she doesn't have a leg to stand on

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Mike Halliday]

Kev you are spot on! But Hindsight is a lucky thing to have.

As you probably can guess this was booked on just a verbal agreement , like all my domestic work

[chris scott]

Kev you are spot on! But Hindsight is a lucky thing to have.

As you probably can guess this was booked on just a verbal agreement , like all my domestic work

90% of my work is by way of a verbal quote and 50% of that is by way of a verbal recommendation.

[Kev Martin]

Mike

Actually I hadn't realised it was all verbal.  I thought you were canvassing opinion for a customer of yours who for want of a better phrase "Was trying it on". 

I have learned to my cost over the years so now all our work is 100% Written Quote!  We cannot allow any ambiguities like this!  Initially we only did this with commercial clients but very quickly we extended it to domestic customers as well.  We found it cuts out "He Said, You Said, They Said"  If it isn't on the quote it isn't getting done!  They sign before the work for the quote and then they sign the T & C's job done.  Even after all the work is done now and we have been paid they also sign foir a set of Floor Care Instructions!

Why? because the latest scam we have had:

  "Yes you restored my floor and did a brilliant job but, you did not tell me how I should maintain it" 

So it was my fault it lost it's lustre a year later!!!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Lee Gilroy]

I would loike to see a template of terms and conditions as all my work is verbal and never any complaints but I always worry that someone is going to hold out on money because of some little issue. If anyone could send me some ideas I would liek to send them in an email before starting my terms and conditions.

piranha@live.co.uk

[Mike Halliday]

Update:

She Called me today to say the builder inspected it yesturday and it will cost £2000 to fix 

She asked me to send her a cheque!!

I told her she was being ridiculous, I'm meeting the buillder there tomorrow,

[Kev Martin]

Mike

I would contact her and ask when the work was originally done and by whom? 

Point 1.  If it was done originally by anyone other than a qualified builder or company then she hasn't got a leg to stand on!
Point 2.  If it was done by a professional builder or company I would then contact them and ask the relevant question on how long they expect a job like that to last given the recent severe weather we have had over the last few years and would they be prepared to back their claim up in a court of law?

You may think I am a little OTT but nothing gets up my nose more than customers like these!

By the way when you meet the builder tomorrow I would photograph the whole area and ask for a copy of his detailed quote if I were you!  (I hope you don't feel as if I am trying "to teach you to suck eggs")

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Mike Halliday]

I agree with your comments Kevin.

I think the builder is also trying it on , he thinks he is onto a big pay day as I will ust hand this over to my insurer for them to pay, but I served my time as a bricklayer then worked in the council Clark of works department, then had my own building company for 10years.  If he thinks he an BS  me he is in for a shock

If the cleaning did effect the pointing then it was not mixed at the required strength or it had suffered frost damage, 

But she has already admitted to noticing a problem, then rather than call me straight away she let it slowly get worse over time, if she had brought this to my attention in the beginning it would have been a minor problem to fix.

Anyhow I will still have not seen the exact problem until this evening

[Mike Halliday]

Just had a very heated discussion with the builder who laid the patio.

Basically he is saying that he used a brushed in pointing system that according to thier instructions should'nt be power washed. Which to be honest sounds very plausible, he is saying we should have investigated the pointing before commencing the work to make sure it was suitable for powerwashing

But the pointing looks nothing like it did after we finished the job,when we finished the job looked fantastic, now it looks completely different,  it look like its all been scraped out, if I was of a suspicious nature I would think he has gone around and scraped it out to show the client how badly it has been effected by us cleaning it.

He did say......" why be so bothered, you have insurance"  until this piont I was quite civil but I just told them I was accepting no liability for any damage and they could take any action they liked ( he had already threatened me with the trading standards )

[Neil Jones]

Wouldn't surprise me at all if this builder was a very good friend or even relation the to homeowner. Good luck Mike hope it gets sorted.

[B Bailey]

So he gave instructions to your customer not have it pressure washed.
She has gone against his advice, her problem not yours, she obviously didn't relay this advice to you.

[Kev Martin]

Just had a very heated discussion with the builder who laid the patio.

Basically he is saying that he used a brushed in pointing system that according to thier instructions should'nt be power washed. Which to be honest sounds very plausible, he is saying we should have investigated the pointing before commencing the work to make sure it was suitable for powerwashing

But the pointing looks nothing like it did after we finished the job,when we finished the job looked fantastic, now it looks completely different,  it look like its all been scraped out, if I was of a suspicious nature I would think he has gone around and scraped it out to show the client how badly it has been effected by us cleaning it.

He did say......" why be so bothered, you have insurance"  until this piont I was quite civil but I just told them I was accepting no liability for any damage and they could take any action they liked ( he had already threatened me with the trading standards )

Mike

If this is the case then it is very simple to rectify.  You just mix the sand and cement together and then add water until it becomes like an apple crumble mixture.  Sweep it into the joints with a soft brush then pull a piece of hose pipe bought to fit the grout joint e.g.(garden hose , gas hose pipe) down the grout joints which draws the water to the surface and creates a smooth new joint.  It takes virtually no time, there is no cleanup or mess and it certainly would cost nowhere near £2K.  I could certainly sort 60M2 in less than a couple of hours.  The trick is to add the water slowly and keep mixing till it's like crumble and don't get it too wet

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[drive surgeon]

Mike we have had this before years ago. We take photos of everything now before the job on our phones. We have had people trying to sue us for blocked drains which hadn't been ever cleaned out, sand washing out of blocks after heavy rain, etc etc. usually Jews or solicitors or people who think they are better than you. We laughed in their faces because we told them we have photos to prove they are wrong so they don't have a leg to stand on.  Pointing will always come out unless its brand new or spot on stuff which lasts. Most pointing we see if rubbish.  Some horrible people out there who will moan or try to get compo for anything now. Always take photos before you do Jobs to cover yourself.

[drive surgeon]

Mike that's a load of cods wallop.  The only way you can clean Indian stone or paving professionally is to power wash it!   So for them to say it shouldn't be power washed is a joke. Ask them "so how do you clean it then?"....    The pointing was obviously not a good job by the builder and now he is trying to blame you for his poor workmanship as if good pointing is used it will not come out unless very old.  You best fight this all the way as we would tell them to get lost. If you receive a solicitors letter then explain the pointing was a joke and windows always get splashed due to the nature of the job.  Ask the customer what evidence they have that the pointing wasn't shot before you got there! 

[Mike Halliday]

The problem is the customer is not happy so called the builder, he is now portraying himself as the 'helpful, friendly  builder' against the 'big, bad powerwasher' who has damaged her patio.

He is telling her everything she wants to hear, she does'nt realise what he is saying is not unbiased, the only other option about who is to blame for the problem is him and no way has he even hinted at that.

His only get out is,..... i did it

[Herve garrot]

she's now asking for £2000 !!!!! if I were you I wouldn't  know whether to cry or laugh out loud.

[Roger Oakley]

Mike,

Been watching this one for a while, what product did the builder use to point the patio? as there are some products out there that are complete s**t, off the top of my head I can't think of any that state "don't use a pressure washer to clean"
The other thing you say is it was so dirty you could't see the pointing, so when was this patio laid or re-pointed for it to get that dirty?

[G O Cleaning]

Pass it onto your insurance it won't go any further as the guy has used a diy pointing product.

The only fault that can be levied at yourself is you failed to recognise it. As it's always possible to scrap away debris in order to view pointing. Once you started clean ideally should of shown custy to see if they wanted you to continue then this situ would of been avoided.

Contact trading stds yourself explain situ report builder for using diy product

Did you say it's 60m if so how the he'll does he justify £2000! 

[Kenny83]

I always try to make the customer happy, but if they don't listen or are unreasonable (as they are here) then I would, or should I say wouldn't do anything, apart from say, 'take me to court' as you are in the right Mike and have nothing to worry about, so let the customer do all the running about, you just wait for the summons, highlighting an alleged £2k job that could be done for around 400 to 600. And also highlighting that the pointing has not been damaged by you, as you are a professional and have been doing this for x amount of years, day in day out... pointing was very old or badly laid... fact.
 I would love to hear the outcome.
 

[Kev Martin]

[quote authorbest ve surgeon link=topic=174052.msg1482276#msg1482276 date=1377864205]
Mike that's a load of cods wallop.  The only way you can clean Indian stone or paving professionally is to power wash it!   So for them to say it shouldn't be power washed is a joke. Ask them "so how do you clean it then?"....    The pointing was obviously not a good job by the builder and now he is trying to blame you for his poor workmanship as if good pointing is used it will not come out unless very old.  You best fight this all the way as we would tell them to get lost. If you receive a solicitors letter then explain the pointing was a joke and windows always get splashed due to the nature of the job.  Ask the customer what evidence they have that the pointing wasn't shot before you got there! 
[/quote]

Actually having tried both methods side by side We found the best way to clean Indian sandstone is with a Mono Rotary fitted with a soft to medium brush and a Wet Vac not with a power washer or an FSC

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[drive surgeon]

fair point kev but im guessing most pressure washing companies will use an fsc. and im sure the woman wouldnt know your method 

[Griffus]

Sounds like a few genuine issues with the initial quote / job.

Always advise that there's a risk of loose mortar blowing out, though care will e taken to avoid there can be no guarantees.

Windows, and anything else made dirty by the PW should be cleaned and left as they were prior to the visit.

This one has obviously gone pear shaped and you should have passed on to your insurance a while back. Do it now and move on.

One to take a few lessons from.

[Roger Oakley]

Mike,

Has this issue gone anywhere or is it still being argued?

[Mike Halliday]

Don't know, in lanzerote topping up my tan

I left it in their court telling them I was not admitting any liability for any damage to the patio and they could take what ever action they see fit.

My only concern is they start slagging me off to anyone who will listen, especially the builder who came across as a bit of a git and owns a well known company here in my small home town.