[dai]

I have read the posts on the size of rounds and the earnings potential.
I f there is one bit of advice I would offer those new to the game it's this.
Dont take on too much work. As Ian said you only need 4 weeks work. I got myself into a trap where it was taking 5 weeks to do the round, I know some guys that struggle to get round in 6 weeks. I am constantly under pressure to get to my next customer. As a result of this I have no time to look for more profitable work.
I have a very compact round but most of it is 25 miles away and moving is not really an option. There is a brand new estate with about 400 houses just 6 miles away. I was too busy to go there canvassing.
The trouble is, many of us see it as a job and not a business and get trapped into a routine. I just wish I had been more ruthless in the past and not so loyal to existing customers. I'm 62 now but if I had my time over again  I would constantly look for better priced jobs and drop the less profitable ones. My plan now is to switch to W.F.P. and stick £1 on the price. If they don't like it fine, there is plenty of  other work. Window cleaners in North wales are getting as scarce as national health dentists. I'm sick of working 10 hour days [with travelling and collecting]. It's high time I learned that I'm running a business not just working for myself. Dai

[windows_chepstow]

Dai,

I agree.  I'm lucky as I'm a Geordie who has settled in South Wales and do not have the conections some local window cleaners have.

I was told the other evening by Ian_Giles that one of his ex-employees has a large round, but a lot of it is centered around where he lives.  His customers are more like friends, he known them for years, so it was really difficult for him to raise his prices, when they were all really underpriced.  In the end, it still didn't sound like he'd raised them enough.

For me, I hiked up many of my prices recently, after reading about how much other window cleaners charge, and although I received a few negative comments and lost a handfull of customers - it didn't affect me on a personal level.  It still wasn't easy to do though.  I did feel awkward.  But I did it.

If you've got too much work - hike up your prices - and lose some.  

[s.hughes]

I like having to much work. When I didnt have so much I worried about loosing even the smallest of customers, now I dont worry.
Its good advise to raise them prices. I work a 5 week round over a 3 and a bit day week. I'm really busy and it is hard to pick up new custom when you are always working so I think make the most of the customers you have got. If you loose any then you have the time to pick up better work.

Steveyboy

[matt]

i am every 6 weeks now

that mainly because the old guy i took over from used to do them every 6 weeks, so i am stuck with it

new customers are allways told its between 5 or 6 weeks

[Marc's on the Glass, LLC]

Does anyone know of a W/C raised his prices and went out of business?  I don't.

[rosskesava]

We are constantly on the look out for new work.

In the main our books are full but any new quotes we do are at good prices. If the customers says no then we say thank you and that's that.

If they say yes then the lowest priced job gets passed on to another w/c. That may sound brutal but we're in this to make money. Strangely enough we took the decision based on a posting by lionheart that our prices are the problem not how quick we are. That way of doing business mixed with getting more work in existing areas will be our approach for this year.

We have 2 days a week commercial work and we're building that up in the same way.

What's been the problem so far this year is the weather.

[littlejack]

Dai
Where in North Wales are you?  Untill 12 months ago I was probably the most expensive w/c in the Conwy valley.

I moved back to England (wifes decision) and had to start over. I bought some underpriced work and did it twice then raised prices 50%.
My theory was..If I lose half .. same money for half the work.
To date lost 2 out of 90.  Picked up seven.

[gaza]

bai:go do it wfp that is,then stick a squid on before Ive just done it lost 3 customers gained 5?just explained  the reason why expence of system ,resin costs and most of all new regs,but I tell them every window cleaner will eventually have to go on wfp,[o yes you will h/s/e will be around to you eventually].Ive havent seen a window cleaner in this area conplying with the new regs yet, execpt myself and the lads in the city cleaning tall buildings who was doing it before new regs came in force.DAI: MY FORMULA FOR PROFIT IS:
100 CUSTOMERS  A  AT WEEK1 SQUID EXTRA =100 SQUID A WEEK PAY RISE X 52 WEEKS =5200 SQUID AND YOU HAVEN EVEN BEEN FISHING= 1 PAYED FOR NEW SYSTEM
GO FOR IT DAI
 GAZA

[Paul Coleman]

bai:go do it wfp that is,then stick a squid on before Ive just done it lost 3 customers gained 5?just explained  the reason why expence of system ,resin costs and most of all new regs,but I tell them every window cleaner will eventually have to go on wfp,[o yes you will h/s/e will be around to you eventually].Ive havent seen a window cleaner in this area conplying with the new regs yet, execpt myself and the lads in the city cleaning tall buildings who was doing it before new regs came in force.DAI: MY FORMULA FOR PROFIT IS:
100 CUSTOMERS  A  AT WEEK1 SQUID EXTRA =100 SQUID A WEEK PAY RISE X 52 WEEKS =5200 SQUID AND YOU HAVEN EVEN BEEN FISHING= 1 PAYED FOR NEW SYSTEM
GO FOR IT DAI
 GAZA

I'm still trying to figure out what the new regulations actually are.  I've had a look around the HSE site and the only bits I've found about "working at height" are rather vague and seem to leave it to individual opinion as to what is safe and what isn't.  Can you supply a link to anything that is more definitive please?

[dai]

Most of my work is in Llandudno I do most of the Glodaeth woods estate and that alone is 6 working day,s a month. OK I can do 30 a day and never be more than 70 yards from the car. I put the prices up 50p in january. and now get £4.50 for a two or 3 bed semi. Problem is it's a ghost town during the day, mostly first time buyers all out at work. Living 25 miles away calling back after tea is not an option, two nights a week collecting,  some don't get home till 7pm
I will try the S.A.E and see how many respond to that.
The point of the post though was a warning to new starters. The posting above say,s take new work on at a better price and pass less well paid work on. That is the right way I'm sure, but if you have 95% of the houses on one estate you don't really want other cleaners on your patch. I made my biggest mistake with pricing conservatories. I knocked off the price of the patio door and the window above I couldn't reach and did the conservatory for £3.50. I should have charged a lot more. The problem is when you do the whole street they talk to each other, so you can't charge them all different prices. I now tell them that I will do the consevatories but it will cost more. Some have opted to do the conservatories themselves and I am happy with this. the thing is I was happy enough untill I read what other cleaners were earning on this forum. Maybe I'm getting greedy. Dai

[Paul Coleman]

bai:go do it wfp that is,then stick a squid on before Ive just done it lost 3 customers gained 5?just explained  the reason why expence of system ,resin costs and most of all new regs,but I tell them every window cleaner will eventually have to go on wfp,[o yes you will h/s/e will be around to you eventually].Ive havent seen a window cleaner in this area conplying with the new regs yet, execpt myself and the lads in the city cleaning tall buildings who was doing it before new regs came in force.DAI: MY FORMULA FOR PROFIT IS:
100 CUSTOMERS  A  AT WEEK1 SQUID EXTRA =100 SQUID A WEEK PAY RISE X 52 WEEKS =5200 SQUID AND YOU HAVEN EVEN BEEN FISHING= 1 PAYED FOR NEW SYSTEM
GO FOR IT DAI
 GAZA

I'm still trying to figure out what the new regulations actually are.  I've had a look around the HSE site and the only bits I've found about "working at height" are rather vague and seem to leave it to individual opinion as to what is safe and what isn't.  Can you supply a link to anything that is more definitive please?

In answer to my own posting I did find the following to paste in:

QUOTE

SCHEDULE 6
Regulation 8(e)



REQUIREMENTS FOR LADDERS


     1. Every employer shall ensure that a ladder is used for work at height only if a risk assessment under regulation 3 of the Management Regulations has demonstrated that the use of more suitable work equipment is not justified because of the low risk and -


(a) the short duration of use; or

(b) existing features on site which he cannot alter.


     2. Any surface upon which a ladder rests shall be stable, firm, of sufficient strength and of suitable composition safely to support the ladder so that its rungs or steps remain horizontal, and any loading intended to be placed on it.

     3. A ladder shall be so positioned as to ensure its stability during use.

     4. A suspended ladder shall be attached in a secure manner and so that, with the exception of a flexible ladder, it cannot be displaced and swinging is prevented.

     5. A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by -



(a) securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;

(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or

(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness.


     6. A ladder used for access shall be long enough to protrude sufficiently above the place of landing to which it provides access, unless other measures have been taken to ensure a firm handhold.

     7. No interlocking or extension ladder shall be used unless its sections are prevented from moving relative to each other while in use.

     8. A mobile ladder shall be prevented from moving before it is stepped on.

     9. Where a ladder or run of ladders rises a vertical distance of 9 metres or more above its base, there shall, where reasonably practicable, be provided at suitable intervals sufficient safe landing areas or rest platforms.

     10. Every ladder shall be used in such a way that -



(a) a secure handhold and secure support are always available to the user; and

(b) the user can maintain a safe handhold when carrying a load unless, in the case of a step ladder, the maintenance of a handhold is not practicable when a load is carried, and a risk assessment under regulation 3 of the Management Regulations has demonstrated that the use of a stepladder is justified because of -


(i) the low risk; and

(ii) the short duration of use.

END QUOTE

My interpretation of the above as it affects me is that item 1 would be covered under the "short duration of use" clause (i.e. only being up the ladder for a minute of two to clean each window).

Item 5 would be covered under (c) - the "any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness".  By this I mean that sideways slipping at the top of the ladder would be prevented by the use of ladder mitts (not so effective if the sills are iced up BTW).  The lower part of the ladder would be prevented from slipping by selecting an appropriate angle if the surface is dry or by placing cloth underneath the ladder in the event of a wet, mossy hard surface (cloth feels more trustworthy to me than ladder stoppers etc). On grassy surfaces, the problem is covered by the ladder sinking into the ground a bit anyway.
It wouldn't surprise me if the legislation gets tighter as time goes by.  Maybe I will have to go to WFP eventually but I would prefer not to as change is scarey.

[gaza]

INTO THE VALLEY OF DEATH FELL THE WINDOW CLEANER:not trying to be morbid,but how many times ave you stood on a ladder and its slid against the wall cus its sunk into the lawn,soil or even worse decking,I agree with you about regs being vague ,but if you employ someone and they are killed you can very easily be charged with corp manslaughter,by choosing to use the cheaper method ie putting cost before saftey.and not having a wfp system is not sufficent defence because they are reconised by h/s as the superior method for safety Personally I wouldnt say that lawns is a good hard surface to put a ladder on but I have done in the past[many times] TWO YRS its taken me to get my shoulder to work properly again after falling 16 ft head first into a yorkshire stone wall [I landed on my head so I was alright] went to work the next day,couldt wear a cap cus I couldnt get it over the lump on my head The ladders collapsed cheap ones from B and * so a word of warning to all of you who are just starting out NO CHEPO LADDERS Iwas extremly lucky.

[gaza]

dai; try www.hse.gov.uk. shedule 6

[jsm]

Window cleaners in North wales are getting as scarce as national health dentists. I'm sick of working 10 hour days

Hi Dai , thats very good news above for me , as I'm moving to Wrexham on the 27th may , I'm taking the wife and children back home as all her family are from N, Wales , can't wait for some fresh air haha - Essex is choking .
So you may see some JSM flyers going around  soon 
If you want to look at the WFP system give us a mail and I'll show you the set up if you want .

john
 

[Ian_Giles]

Strewth Dai, £4.50 for a 2/3 bed semi
For a similar size house I am charging £8.00 and wish I could be brave enough to charge a tenner
I picked up 2 houses in my local village, both next door to each other, all UPVC and neither had been cleaned for a very long time either!
I'm a WFP'er now, have been for just over a year, so having these houses next door to each other was a bonus.
A guy in my local cricket club lives in the one house, and a woman who works in the local chemist lives in the other, neither batted an eyelid at the price, the guy form the cricket club paid me last night when all the teams got back to the club after their respective matches (out of 4 teams mine was the only one that lost though my son plays for the 1sts and scored 110 ) He handed me a tenner and started to walk away, I called him back to give him his 2 quid change, with a slightly surprised look on his face he said, "Oh, you're only charging us £8.00 then?"
So I could have charged a tenner with no problem at all

Even the first clean only took 25 minutes for the pair of them, and that included ALL of the frames and doors too.

I know how hard it is to put up prices on long standing customers, but my word, £4.50 is really low.
If you do take the plunge and enter into the world of WFP then that would give you the opportunity to bang an increase of £1.50 at LEAST on those £4.50 houses.

Regards,

Ian

[simbo]

you would'nt get me up a ladder risking my neck for £4.50, as has been stated before they get there car washed at the garage for around the same price, look how long that takes fewer customers at better prices ,thats my moto.
all the best paul

[dai]

Thanks guy's, your telling me what I know in my heart is true. I made the mistake of not putting my prices up often enough. It's going to be a quid a year from now on. Even with my silly prices I did 27 houses today, 3 with conservatories, Started 8.30 finished 4.30 £135.50. A really compact open plan estate. If I was charging some of the prices I hear on this site I would be minted.
I love my Backflip. That dishwasher rinse aid makes an unbelievable difference. Dai.

[danny mckim]

Dai im from Scotland and your work and prices are similar to mine.Does the estates your doing have wooden windows or eves? Take it from me you can buy a great woodstain for these and make more  from doing this once every 2 years than what you would from doing their windows every month for 2 years. People would prefer someone they know and trust to do this, The hardest point in buisness is making the contact and you have already done that. Also do you do all of your estates every 2 weeks?

[Londoner]

I've been underpricing work all my life, I know I do it but there is something inside you that makes you do it.
I live and work around the London suburbs. Last week LBC (A phone in radio station) had a thing in the afternoon about why can't you ever get a window cleaner in London.

Some of the things people phoned in to say amazed even me and I thought I'd heard it all.

People were saying they were having to pay twenty, thirty pounds or more to get their windows cleaned. One guy with a flat was charged fifty!

Yet despite that they told of window cleaners who refused to quote or never came back, bad attitudes and poor workmanship.

I couldn't be like that. It may be that I should be more mercinary. I don't know.

[Paul Coleman]

I've been underpricing work all my life, I know I do it but there is something inside you that makes you do it.
I live and work around the London suburbs. Last week LBC (A phone in radio station) had a thing in the afternoon about why can't you ever get a window cleaner in London.

Some of the things people phoned in to say amazed even me and I thought I'd heard it all.

People were saying they were having to pay twenty, thirty pounds or more to get their windows cleaned. One guy with a flat was charged fifty!

Yet despite that they told of window cleaners who refused to quote or never came back, bad attitudes and poor workmanship.

I couldn't be like that. It may be that I should be more mercinary. I don't know.

Tell you what Vince.  I used to be like you.  However, being turned over for a LOT of money by my ex-fiancee followed by needing half a year off work due to illness cured me of that.  I lost a lot of customers due to being ill - even though I wrote to them all.  I later found out that many of them ended up paying a LOT more than I had been charging them.  Some of them are gradually drifting back to me now that they've been let down.  Some of them seem astonished at how much more I'm charging them than I did before.  Well it's TOUGH brown stuff.  Someone accused me of having a "take it or leave it" attitude so I told them they had a "something for nothing" attitude (didn't get that job    ). I HAVE to quote properly now.  In the longterm, both of the above issues have been good for me businesswise and for my general assertiveness.

Also, I take the view that the time I spend cleaning their windows is time that I will never have again.  After being ill (and fully recovering incidentally) I now regard my time as a precious resource.  I begrudge needing to exchange some of that precious resource for money so, when I do, I get the most I can for it.  I wonder if it is possible for someone to adopt that philosophy without being ill first.

IMO, life is to be enjoyed - not endured.  This goes for my work too.  Sorry.  Not lecturing you.  Just saying how it's been for me.

[dai]

Hi Danny, My biggest single estate is 6/7 working days a month, all white UPVC. AVERAGE 4 climbs a house. I  have very few wooden frame jobs.
When this estate was been built 12 years ago I was one of 3 w/c's. I got to know the site foreman and he tipped me off as to when the owners were moving in. I was there with the removal men. My gimmick was every one got the first clean free. It was good phychology as it created an obligation from the customers point of view. I could keep my price down because I move my car once a day at most. I do 32 out of 36 houses in one close and must do 90%of the estate. The other guys have fallen by the wayside so to speak, theres a couple that service customers I have sacked for one reason or another.
My mistake is not increasing my prices often enough. I started doing them at £3.00 12 years ago. That was before they all put up pannel fencing and conservatories. In the begining you could just step over 2 ft fences into the next back garden. Now you have to go through and sometimes over 6ft gates. Too busy to even think of painting frames. When you start with low prices it's hard to to break the cycle. My prices on this estate have gone up 50% in 12 years.
I lost a customer the other day because she could no longer afford the £4.50.
the county of Conwy has the lowest per capita income in the U.K.
As Ian said in one of his postings, Location  dictates your prices. Dai

[jsm]

Don't let the low income thing fool you Dai, all my in -laws live round your patch - most are retired but have more money than me !!! you got some nice pads round the marina /golf course , easy £10-£15 plus a house .

If you put you prices up 50% and lose 50% of your customers you will be doing half the work for the same money    I'm moving up to wrexham in 5 days so I'll pick up the other 50% and give them a top price so then they think it's the norm after a while haha . 

you can punt the working at height ladder thing and say you have to use the wfp now to soften the blow to them . going back years i never put my prices up as i was a bit green , now they get a increse yearly  , You may get one moan but if you do a good job they will keep you anyway .

[Londoner]

Dai is right. Location dictates your price. Thats always been true but the reasons are not always clear.

Here in London house prices were high and wages were high to compensate.
Now a lot of parts of the country have virtually caught up on the house prices.
A lot of wages are the same wherever you live. A policeman / nurse / teacher etc earns the same in Leeds or Liverpool as they would in London.

But out of London window cleaners get a lot less.

I think Shiner is right,  if you don't ask you don't get.
However, its hard to drive up your prices once you have established a certain price level in a particular town it becomes the norm

[Jeff Brimble]

Tell them you need to put the price of the conservatories up OR you will do them every other time but still charge the same overall price, it worked for me. Mind you I dont get loads of sea salt in Ruthin.

[matt]

most conservatories i price now are the same as the house, afterall they have the same glass

i priced a house up wednesday, house 8 quid, conservatory 7 quid

the guy asked why the conservatory was so much, i said, look at the glass, he mentioned well you dont need to climb ladders, even though we were stood right next to my cart and pole  :

he used the old, my last window cleaner stopped coming last winter and used to charge 8 quid the whole lot  : i explained, thats why he stopped coming, it was too cheap and not worth doing

i got the job, and was happy

[Paul Coleman]

most conservatories i price now are the same as the house, afterall they have the same glass

i priced a house up wednesday, house 8 quid, conservatory 7 quid

the guy asked why the conservatory was so much, i said, look at the glass, he mentioned well you dont need to climb ladders, even though we were stood right next to my cart and pole  :

he used the old, my last window cleaner stopped coming last winter and used to charge 8 quid the whole lot  : i explained, thats why he stopped coming, it was too cheap and not worth doing

i got the job, and was happy

I use a similar line Matt.  I just say he probably went bankrupt working for that kind of money    .

[dai]

Funny thing JSM I have just given the marina to a mate of mine. I did most of the houses there for years. Most are holiday homes and getting your money was a real pain. £10 to £15 a house, Dream on. I was doing the 3 storie one s for a fiver, stopped going up 3 floors 4 years ago. My mate has got the pole and he is a bit shy asking for £7, The biggest house on there only has 7 windows and 2 patios. Your right most of them are loaded, but in my experience those that have it are least willing to part with it. There are some nice people there like everywhere else, but lots of them think they are royalty. When someone talks down to me they are off my list. I don't have to put up with it and won't. The Conwy marina is the only place I have had cheques bounce. What does that tell you. It seems to me there is a fine balance with pricing. Either you go in high and spend more time travelling or you price lower and get more compact work. Getting the price right on new estates is the secret. It's easy to shoot yourself in the foot, pricing too low to beat off the oposition. When your starting out you need the work but, when you have a full round going you can affored to price higher, you have nothing to lose. That's what I'm doing from now on. It's taken me a long time to learn though.
This forum is great, it allowes new guys to learn from other peoples mistakes.
The wish I'd known then what I know now thing no longer applies. Any one starting out in our profession has a vast amount of experience to draw on. He or she, only need to ask this forum. Dai

[geoffreyspecht]

dai i live in llandudno and my price for a three bedroom semi detached house is £10 my advice to u is put your prices up so u lose a few jobs just dont worry about it lots more work out there