[Shrek]

Hi all , I'l be taking on my brother in law two mornings a week (as soon as he's had enough practice on my windows ) .
Il be paying £8 an hour (which he's happy with) for 8 hours a week (£64 a week) .

My question is - how do we go about it officially? He won't pay tax , Iv read I don't need to register as an employer on the Hmrc  website and don't need to pay him a pension if he's on less than £113 a week.

So what do I actually need to do?

Does he just register as self employed or as a sub contractor and away we go ?

Thanks in advance 👍

[Og]

Will he be self employed? Will he have his own tools, specify what hours he works and be responsible for the work if is not done or cocked up? Nope.

You need to employ him.

It's not such a ball ache.

[Shrek]

Yes il be employing him but no idea where to start - does he need to register with hmrc if I'm employing him?
Really don't know where to start..

[PHILIP HARDY]

Is this for real???      dont tell anyone.  Pay him his £64 and if any body asks hes helping you out for free as a favour from a relative !!!!  At least till you are sure he will stick around, If hes doing OK getting regualar work,  at some point in the future, register with HMRC as an employer. pay all the extra insurance costs and use the Yougov website, all the information is up there.

[Shrek]

Is this for real???      dont tell anyone.  Pay him his £64 and if any body asks hes helping you out for free as a favour from a relative !!!!  At least till you are sure he will stick around, If hes doing OK getting regualar work,  at some point in the future, register with HMRC as an employer. pay all the extra insurance costs and use the Yougov website, all the information is up there.

Yep it's for real 😳. He's been out of work for a while but can only manage 2 mornings a week . I just want to make sure I'm doing it properly , thanks for your advice 👍

[paul alan]

Im in wales, as part of business wales lm getting free consultation with a goverment based scheme who will walk me trough all this for free. If your in england maybe they have something similar?

[Shrek]

Im in wales, as part of business wales lm getting free consultation with a goverment based scheme who will walk me trough all this for free. If your in england maybe they have something similar?

Il take a look thank you

[Stoots]

Is this for real???      dont tell anyone.  Pay him his £64 and if any body asks hes helping you out for free as a favour from a relative !!!!  At least till you are sure he will stick around, If hes doing OK getting regualar work,  at some point in the future, register with HMRC as an employer. pay all the extra insurance costs and use the Yougov website, all the information is up there.

What most people would do.

Not the correct advice though.

If he's on less than. 113 a week you don't need to register for PAYE buy you are an employer

Speak to an accountant Shrek.

I don't have one but I arranged to speak to one for a free consultation, had about half an hour and asked them all sorts or questions about tax and employing and VAT and anything I could think of.

I walked away with enough info to be confident In staying doing my returns myself.

Also I am looking to employ part time soon and again you can do it all yourself including PAYE if you need to.

[Shrek]

Is this for real???      dont tell anyone.  Pay him his £64 and if any body asks hes helping you out for free as a favour from a relative !!!!  At least till you are sure he will stick around, If hes doing OK getting regualar work,  at some point in the future, register with HMRC as an employer. pay all the extra insurance costs and use the Yougov website, all the information is up there.

What most people would do.

Not the correct advice though.

If he's on less than. 113 a week you don't need to register for PAYE buy you are an employer

Speak to an accountant Shrek.

I don't have one but I arranged to speak to one for a free consultation, had about half an hour and asked them all sorts or questions about tax and employing and VAT and anything I could think of.

I walked away with enough info to be confident In staying doing my returns myself.

Also I am looking to employ part time soon and again you can do it all yourself including PAYE if you need to.

Awesome, cheers Adam - il speak to my accountant 👍

[Stoots]

The accountant told me you can do it all yourself including setting up payroll from the gov website.

https://www.gov.uk/topic/business-tax/paye

All the info is there.

However I was quoted £360 a year for them to do my accounts and do the payroll etc for 1 employee and of course help out with any issues along the way.

I didn't have an accountant but if I employed would as they are invaluable for things like this.

You don't want to get it wrong and get a fine.

[Shrek]

That's a good price , it cost me £372 for my accountant for my window cleaning & other business. Think il ring him Monday and find out the cost- nice 1

See the thing is , because he will only be working 2 mornings a week , I don't need to register as an employer. So the only thing I can think of doing is getting employers liability insurance, and paying him. Is there nothing else I need to do or him? Because it doesn't tell you what you do if you pay less than £113 a week?

[Stoots]

That's a good price , it cost me £372 for my accountant for my window cleaning & other business. Think il ring him Monday and find out the cost- nice 1

See the thing is , because he will only be working 2 mornings a week , I don't need to register as an employer. So the only thing I can think of doing is getting employers liability insurance, and paying him. Is there nothing else I need to do or him? Because it doesn't tell you what you do if you pay less than £113 a week?

A far as I'm aware although you do not need to register as an employer you still have to record their pay and report this to HRMC with using payroll software. Over 113 a week you need to register and use PAYE

I'm only going off what I was told and what I've read online, really just let your accountant do it, it's not worth trying to figure out.

[Slacky]

Refer to your accountant.


You'll find out why if you don't.

[Shrek]

Ok cheers lads , il speak to him tomorrow morning 👍

[Nameless Drudge]

The warning signs already exist if he can only manage 2 mornings a week. Inclement weather,van breaks down,you will still need to pay him.Also 5 weeks of holiday at 2 mornings a week.Employers liability and if he gets hurt in any way expect a claim! A rod for your own back springs to mind. Feel your brain frying when he is late or cutting corners and even worse if you see him texting.Phone in the van rule from outset.Family "tie" makes it worse.It could well slow you down and then any perceived benefits are lost.
You might well be forking out money for a hindrance.
There will be a day when you don't want to be working but he is expecting his £8 an hour.
On the plus side,hmmmm,I,m not seeing one.
These are some of the reasons why over the years many on here get rid of all staff and keep for themselves a manageable round and live in eternal bliss though you may well prefer different.
While all your intentions are most likely honourable your goodwill might disappear when you realise you became a charity.

[Shrek]

He'll be on a zero hour contract , which removes a lot of problems straight away

[Stoots]

The warning signs already exist if he can only manage 2 mornings a week. Inclement weather,van breaks down,you will still need to pay him.Also 5 weeks of holiday at 2 mornings a week.Employers liability and if he gets hurt in any way expect a claim! A rod for your own back springs to mind. Feel your brain frying when he is late or cutting corners and even worse if you see him texting.Phone in the van rule from outset.Family "tie" makes it worse.It could well slow you down and then any perceived benefits are lost.
You might well be forking out money for a hindrance.
There will be a day when you don't want to be working but he is expecting his £8 an hour.
On the plus side,hmmmm,I,m not seeing one.
These are some of the reasons why over the years many on here get rid of all staff and keep for themselves a manageable round and live in eternal bliss though you may well prefer different.
While all your intentions are most likely honourable your goodwill might disappear when you realise you became a charity.

And on the flip side theres guys out there with a dozen vans on the road obviously making a success of it.
If everyone let potential road blocks stand in their way no one would ever achieve anything in life.

Why bother, its too hard...

[Michael Peterson]

Nathan and Adam have opposing opinions here and strangly I think they might both be right

[windowswashed]

Employing family and friends has pitfalls.  They expect everything and take advantage of your kind, helping nature. You might be put out a lot of times doing them favours which they might expect of you being family or friends of yours.
Personally I would rather employ a total stranger and run it as a business as after all that's what it is and run it professionally and run it to suit you and not your friend or relative.  If the two of you fall out in time it can cause more hassle than it's worth but that's just my opinion.
I have employed in the past but I wouldn't employ family or friends and I kept it all above board with PAYE, sick pay, holiday pay, accountant, etc.
I don't employ anymore after a life changing illness affected my long term health.  Had to give up work for some time, but when I got better I looked at life and decided there are more important things in life than growing a business, so I settled for having my independence, freedom to choose my working hours within reason, together with a happy balance of work and life balance.
I hope it all works out for you both and he gets himself back on his feet with your help.

[KS Cleaning]

He'll be on a zero hour contract , which removes a lot of problems straight away

It doesn't remove a lot of the problems if you are giving him the same regular working hours week in week out, employees on zero hour contracts are entitled to the same benefits. Zero hour contracts are used mainly for employees who's hours will vary from week to week, as you have stated he will work 8 hours every week the zero hour contract will be neither here  nor there.

[Stoots]

Nathan and Adam have opposing opinions here and strangly I think they might both be right

Whether you think you can or you can't..
You are right 

[Crystal-clear]

The warning signs already exist if he can only manage 2 mornings a week. Inclement weather,van breaks down,you will still need to pay him.Also 5 weeks of holiday at 2 mornings a week.Employers liability and if he gets hurt in any way expect a claim! A rod for your own back springs to mind. Feel your brain frying when he is late or cutting corners and even worse if you see him texting.Phone in the van rule from outset.Family "tie" makes it worse.It could well slow you down and then any perceived benefits are lost.
You might well be forking out money for a hindrance.
There will be a day when you don't want to be working but he is expecting his £8 an hour.
On the plus side,hmmmm,I,m not seeing one.
These are some of the reasons why over the years many on here get rid of all staff and keep for themselves a manageable round and live in eternal bliss though you may well prefer different.
While all your intentions are most likely honourable your goodwill might disappear when you realise you became a charity.

And on the flip side theres guys out there with a dozen vans on the road obviously making a success of it.
If everyone let potential road blocks stand in their way no one would ever achieve anything in life.

Why bother, its too hard...

Both so True but the freedom you have not being responsible for anyone but yourself does tempt those who tried to scale down
Guess you'll really need to want it

[nathankaye]

Nathan and Adam have opposing opinions here and strangly I think they might both be right

 
Dont think ive posted on this thread

[Shrek]

After all that , the tosser didn't turn up for another wfp session. 6 hours later he apparently just got signal and received my texts 

Think il sack him off before he starts

[Stoots]

After all that , the tosser didn't turn up for another wfp session. 6 hours later he apparently just got signal and received my texts 

Think il sack him off before he starts

Not a good start if you already think hes a tosser 

[Crystal-clear]

After all that , the tosser didn't turn up for another wfp session. 6 hours later he apparently just got signal and received my texts 

Think il sack him off before he starts

classic stuff
now imagine if u hired an accountant put him on the books then had to fire him before he even put brush to glass lol
this is the sort of stuff why alot of people get drained and revert to working alone with maybe the odd subby helping out now and again
but it can be rewarding its all down to u so dont give up and go for it if you want too;)

[dazmond]

you dont need a worker if you can only offer 2 mornings a week.why not one full day instead of 2 mornings by the way?

[NWH]

Is he self employed what on £8 an hour 😂 good luck finding someone that bothers to turn over in the morning and fart for that kind of money these days,have you been in prison for the last 20 years thinking you can get away with paying  that amount of money 

[NWH]

Tell him I'll have him for the other 3 days a week at that rate please I'll drop down to a 3 day week lol.

[Stoots]

Tell him I'll have him for the other 3 days a week at that rate please I'll drop down to a 3 day week lol.

Plenty of guys will work for that near me.

Plus side of being up north I guess, we might not get your prices but minimum wage jobs are rife.

[Shrek]

Family issues! My sister (his mrs) does care work (zero hours) and she's only off on Thursday & Friday mornings , that's why I could offer him those hours. And they've got a baby in the house
I think he's just lazy though so I'm not gonna bother

[Shrek]

Is he self employed what on £8 an hour 😂 good luck finding someone that bothers to turn over in the morning and fart for that kind of money these days,have you been in prison for the last 20 years thinking you can get away with paying  that amount of money

The minimum wage is £7.50

[NWH]

The minimum wage maybe that but why do you think we have the political problems we have,wages are not back 10-15 years they are more like 25 years with what the cost of living is today. If you are on the minimum wage or anywhere near it you can barely survive rent bills food clothes train and bus fares and running a vehicle is never gonna happen,people paying the so called minimum wage is 1 of the main reasons this country struggles to get people off benefits because they are better off on them. I couldn't pay someone that kind of money these days it would give me no reason to expect them to take pride in there work or be reliable its pittance.

[Shrek]

The minimum wage maybe that but why do you think we have the political problems we have,wages are not back 10-15 years they are more like 25 years with what the cost of living is today. If you are on the minimum wage or anywhere near it you can barely survive rent bills food clothes train and bus fares and running a vehicle is never gonna happen,people paying the so called minimum wage is 1 of the main reasons this country struggles to get people off benefits because they are better off on them. I couldn't pay someone that kind of money these days it would give me no reason to expect them to take pride in there work or be reliable its pittance.

He'd be working with me , so he doesn't have any expenses.
Also - look at my face .... am I boverrd?!

[NWH]

lol I bet your not bothered if it's long term it'll end up being short term or it would down this way,I'd love to have someone that would work for that and be reliable and competent at what they do. If it was that easy we'd all be doing it employing people like that i mean.

[NWH]

You say he doesn't have any expenses lol could he afford to have any then,I can remember going out with a bucket and sponge and getiting more cleaning cars 🚗 😂

[Shrek]

You say he doesn't have any expenses lol could he afford to have any then,I can remember going out with a bucket and sponge and getiting more cleaning cars 🚗 😂

Well done Nigel

[Stoots]

I managed fine for 15 years on minimum wage and I know as lot of people who do.

Yes things are quite tight but that's just seen as normal. That's life for a lot of people it's not easy. It's certainly not easy for someone with no qualifications to walk into an unskilled job (like window cleaning) and expect to earn more than 8 quid an hour. A quick look in the local job centre near me would show a whole host of unskilled work going for 8 quid an hour from warehouse to driving jobs and lots more.

It's much different if you can turn over 300 a day in your area then you can pay more but if you are turning over 150-200 a day you just can't pay much more than that.

In the last few months I've had two guys ring me at random looking for work. One  was on 7.50  the other was being paid 60 quid a day. Both currently window cleaners looking for more hours

[nathankaye]

Out of curiosity what is the going rate for a days work for an employeee window cleaner!??

Because at the end of the day he or she is just that an emoloyee!!  I know cleaners self employed who charge between 10 n 20 and hour!!  and they are self employed and get asked to clean windows for their employers.
So is it really wrong to pay a going hourly rate the same as most employed people receive and like most employers you can set incentives and disciplinary rules in play as well which shows your being serious about this yourself as an employer!

[NWH]

In my experience in this job paying by the hour does not work long term you need to give more of an incentive than that you can clean loads and loads of Windows with 1 of you in an hour let alone 2,it doesn't take long for your help to figure that one out. Not saying paying an hourly rate won't work it may well do but if you want someone that can think for thereself and continue to turn up and is callable of going out on there own then I think you need to think again,if you get to the point you can send someone out on there own and know they'll do the job right then benefits of employing will be seen. I can only see paying that kind of money a situation that'll on last short term.

[NWH]

Out of curiosity what is the going rate for a days work for an employeee window cleaner!??

Because at the end of the day he or she is just that an emoloyee!!  I know cleaners self employed who charge between 10 n 20 and hour!!  and they are self employed and get asked to clean windows for their employers.
So is it really wrong to pay a going hourly rate the same as most employed people receive and like most employers you can set incentives and disciplinary rules in play as well which shows your being serious about this yourself as an employer!

Most down south will pay 100 a day if there working with them more if on there own although most down here with enough work to think about employing full time will be about to go VAT registered,silly quick on jobs with 2 on the pole I've had help on big domestics using 2 vans 1 doing back and a side me doing a side and the front,almost embarrassing knocking for the money. It's all relative to which part of the country we are in you couldn't expect to pay £8 an hour if you were able to clean upwards of £500s worth of work  regularly with 2 of you unless his name was bob cratchet.

[Shrek]

Out of curiosity what is the going rate for a days work for an employeee window cleaner!??

Because at the end of the day he or she is just that an emoloyee!!  I know cleaners self employed who charge between 10 n 20 and hour!!  and they are self employed and get asked to clean windows for their employers.
So is it really wrong to pay a going hourly rate the same as most employed people receive and like most employers you can set incentives and disciplinary rules in play as well which shows your being serious about this yourself as an employer!

Most down south will pay 100 a day if there working with them more if on there own although most down here with enough work to think about employing full time will be about to go VAT registered,silly quick on jobs with 2 on the pole I've had help on big domestics using 2 vans 1 doing back and a side me doing a side and the front,almost embarrassing knocking for the money. It's all relative to which part of the country we are in you couldn't expect to pay £8 an hour if you were able to clean upwards of £500s worth of work  regularly with 2 of you unless his name was bob cratchet.

Exactly, it's all relevant- I don't clean 500 a day ,
So on your sums - 500 in a day , your paying someone 20p for every £1 you earn( £100 a day )
If I do 250 in a day , il be paying 25p for every £1 I earn (£64 a day)

[NWH]

I said 100 minimum on an employee basis so you don't or can't work you still get paid you have 4 weeks off and bank holidays you still get paid,you get on average 25k a year before overtime or weekends worked. Look into it in more detail you'll see far more will be going into it rather than paying someone a few quid cash in hand for a couple of days work each week far more. I was doing the same with someone 15 odd years ago it was going knowwhere for him or me if you want to employ these days properly it will cost you as the employer you will need to earn far more than someone's wages to make it pay this is why people trip up when they do the sums.Its a big decision employing if your plodding along doing 50k if you want to employ and pay a decent wage and keep em you'll definitely be over and above the VAT level and be needing to be turning over above 100k to end up with your normal income + a profit after expenses with your extra costs. So pound for pound I don't really think you can compare a couple of days cash in hand to employing to the letter.

[Slacky]

The last fella I had working for me had a couple or so days a week guaranteed work. It took him 3 months before he got a better offer, i.e. more hours.

Understandable he took it.

[Shrek]

I said 100 minimum on an employee basis so you don't or can't work you still get paid you have 4 weeks off and bank holidays you still get paid,you get on average 25k a year before overtime or weekends worked. Look into it in more detail you'll see far more will be going into it rather than paying someone a few quid cash in hand for a couple of days work each week far more. I was doing the same with someone 15 odd years ago it was going knowwhere for him or me if you want to employ these days properly it will cost you as the employer you will need to earn far more than someone's wages to make it pay this is why people trip up when they do the sums.Its a big decision employing if your plodding along doing 50k if you want to employ and pay a decent wage and keep em you'll definitely be over and above the VAT level and be needing to be turning over above 100k to end up with your normal income + a profit after expenses with your extra costs. So pound for pound I don't really think you can compare a couple of days cash in hand to employing to the letter.

If you read my post , you would've seen I said he can only do 2 mornings a week . Also i said I wanted to do it properly, no where have I said it's a cash in hand job so where did you get that from?
I'm not going to offer someone a a top pay package straight away when they don't even know how to hold a pole.
Your waffling on for no reason, saying I should be paying someone the same wage as what a windy earns in London- ridiculous. 

[NWH]

£8 an hour doing any manual labour in my opinion is far to low.