jouk45

beware of your local window cleaner
« on: June 27, 2007, 10:15:20 pm »
err, do you think these folk like us  ::)
come on who was it   ;D

www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=14204731

Jeff Brimble

  • Posts: 4347
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2007, 10:19:13 pm »
Well looks like hes guilty but how sound is the roof and could the window cleaner claim compensation ?

Scrimble

  • Posts: 2037
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2007, 11:57:17 pm »
he is lucky the window cleaner didnt fall through, if i fell through a flat roof then i'd sue

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2007, 08:17:11 am »
Many years ago a friend of mine was working on a large flat roof on a hotel, he was cleaning the windows above it and he fell through the roof and hurt himself quite badly.

The Hotel owner hit the roof when he found out, blaming the window cleaner until it was pointed out to him that the flat roof he was on was part of the Hotel's escape route as a fire escape for all the windows that opened on to it and then down a set of steps at the end of the roof.

Imagine the carnage if there had been a fire. He shut up straight away and had to pay up for damages to the window cleaner and to have the whole roof replaced.

If you have checked with the client that it is okay to walk on a flat roof, then any liability becomes theirs for not ensuring a safe working environment.

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2007, 08:42:49 am »
Dare I say this, but had the window cleaner been insured, surely he would have told the client, had the roof inspected by the loss adjuster, had his insurance company pay the claim if liable and all in all everyone is happy?

And we wonder why window cleaners have this "stigma" attached to them despite most of us doing everything we can to remain legal and above board and most of all professional!

This is exactly the reason why this industry needs cleaning up and the rotten wood removed!

Sorry if I am ranting but this really gets my back up.

Need a coffee now, going to go and beat one of my staff up  ;D
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Clear Vision

  • Posts: 1908
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2007, 08:57:41 am »
err, do you think these folk like us  ::)
come on who was it   ;D

www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=14204731

Check this reply in the topic! >:( >:( >:(

"I never use window cleaners. I've never met one whose attitude I like. They all seem nosey, gossipy, overcharging, call at the most inconvenient times, and pretend not to peer in at the window."

 >:( >:(

DASERVICES

Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2007, 09:09:45 am »
Agree with Trevor, window cleaners have a bad stigma. I found this out when I first started it was the looks of distrust as a lot of you may know. But soon they found I was a likeable guy and now have to keep on declining cups of tea ( week bladder  ;D )

Have had many a calls saying " don't trust window cleaners " then just mention licence etc.. and that regains their trust.

There was another article on the net last night but will not post it as it was bad, window cleaner rapped someone. When these and many bogus reports and it always window cleaners mentioned and some how other trades do not get highlighted. Yes there are those that are tarnishing our industry as window cleaning is the easiest job to gain entrance into peoples houses. Got speaking to a lad in England last night and he was telling me the drug runners are using window cleaning to cover their tracks.

Hence the need for a recognised body that everyone will use, we have it up here in Scotland as you all know by my million posts ;D ;D

Rant over, there goes my hone again, more work >:(
Have already given £400 worth to local cleaners.

Paul Coleman

Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2007, 10:04:51 am »
I had something like this a few years ago.  In fact I could say when it was almost to the day because it was just after Diana Spencer's death.
There had been blistering heat mixed with very heavy showers.  Between the showers I leaned my ladder up to get onto a flat roof as this was the only way of getting to some of the windows.  I put my ladder up at in a different place from my usual favourite as there was a load of garden stuff in the way.  The roof was 20 years old but looked sound and I had been up there many times before (though not on that particular bit).  I took a few steps and my foot went right through the decking.  Fortunately, it did not go through the plasterboard as well.  I know I'm overweight but this was nothing to do with it.  It looked like water had seeped under the felt - possibly due to bitumen joint melting in the heat then rain getting underneath.  The chipboard (N.B. not allowed to be used on modern roofs) had turned soggy even though it looked OK from above.

Anyway, the guy next door was a decent sort and happened to have a tarpaulin so we covered the roof and weighed it down.
I left a note updating the customer and he phoned me up later.  I gave him my insurance details and contacted my insurance company to inform them that they may be getting a claim.
However, although it was my foot that went through the decking, I feel that there is a lot more to this.

(1)  I was up there with his implied consent because he wanted his windows cleaned and the only way to do it was by climbing onto the flat roof.

(2)  As I was up there with implied consent, it is the householder's duty to ensure that the roof is sound.

(3)  The flat roof was 20 years old and for chipboard and felt roofs the recommendation was to change them 10 yearly.

(4)  If I was near the edge and this had caused me to fall off the roof, surely the householder (or their insurance co.) are the liable party.  Just because I did not get hurt, this should not alter who is liable IMO.

Anyway, it seems that his household insurer took a similar view to mine.  They actually paid for a whole new flat roof - even though they could have given a "wear and tear" argument.  Even then the customer wanted his excess back from me.  I did explain that the roof clearly needed replacing and if it wasn't for my mishap, he would have borne the entire cost himself within a few months or a year at most.
He must have thought about that because he said on my next visit that he was OK about me not paying the excess.
He also cancelled.

Funnily enough, fast forward nine years and I get a phone call from a lady who wants a quote on a commercial job.  I go to view the job and give my quote with this vague feeling that I know her from somewhere.
Turns out she's the wife of the guy at the house.
Anyway, I got that job and still do it so I suppose that at least no-one holds a grudge anyway.
No flat roofs to get on there mind you.  :)

Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2007, 04:03:28 pm »
I agree with trevor,

There are too many window cleaners out there that give the proffesionals a bad name, there is no way at present to govern them and i think that our so called fedarations need to address this problem rather than many other useless causes they persue

I see quite alot of it and here quite alot of it

regards, stu

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2007, 04:14:08 pm »
I agree with trevor,

There are too many window cleaners out there that give the proffesionals a bad name, there is no way at present to govern them and i think that our so called fedarations need to address this problem rather than many other useless causes they persue

I see quite alot of it and here quite alot of it

regards, stu

Hi Stu,

I agree the Federations and Associations that represent this industry should be doing more, I should know, i'm on the committee of one of them  ;)

The trouble is, its a vicious circle, we need members to generate an income stream to enable us to promote and raise the profile of window cleaners, however, to get a large membership we need to offer member benefits etc....

The government won't sponsor or invest in us and therefore it comes back to the money invested by the sponsors and the membership.

I wish there was a simpler answer.
Regards,

Trevor



Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2007, 04:25:13 pm »
Trevor,

Not to slate the federations etc but the lack of goverment funds isnt the issue.

The goverment need to understand that those window cleaners that refuse to play properly ie: declaring for tax, paying for insurance or even the correct level of insurance cover in place . are causing costs to others like proffesional companies or one man operations, let alone the customers.

The federations etc need to be making them more aware of the need of a licence not a membership, in other words make it illegal to trade as a window cleaner etc unless they are fully checked now i know this costs money but if you are really interested in earning a living from window cleaning then you would be happy to pay for a licence.

For example how many window cleaners are left on both private and business properties to there own devices !!! clean nursing homes where scamming of its residents is wide spread, near children!!!!!

Who can govern it well im not sure but maybe the local council after all they were quick enough to send out letters in most areas inform council tenneants etc that they are not to employ a trad window cleaner due to the councils covering part of the insurance.

that said the licence fee would help pay for the governing of window cleaning and we all know the benefits to us if the cowboys couldnt trade

better name & better work

regards,
stuart

Paul Coleman

Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2007, 05:02:51 pm »


Who can govern it well im not sure but maybe the local council after all they were quick enough to send out letters in most areas inform council tenneants etc that they are not to employ a trad window cleaner due to the councils covering part of the insurance.


regards,
stuart

Stuart.
Could you elaborate on the bit I've quoted please?  Any web links?  It sounds like it may be an interesting topic and I would like to read up on it if possible.

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2007, 05:19:46 pm »
I have 4 flat roofs that I have to climb on, and on each of these 4 roofs is a half scaffold board covering the area of the window I do.

I refuse to do a window until one is in place, I even supplied 2 of them for a £5 each. one board cut into 2, 4 happy customers and one happy & safe W/C.

Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2007, 06:11:51 pm »
Shinner,

Our local council and a few further afield have sent letters out approx one year ago and released it in there news letter that tennante to both houses and business, although mainly houses were not to contract a trad window cleaner due to the law change and there insurance as they normally cover the buildings which is the insurance that would be claimed against if the need arised, they have contracted out the cleaning of serviced offices and comunial areas to a window cleaning company usinjg the pole system.

i have heard of a few other councils that are dong this

Thus cowboy window cleaners would or could possible have no insurance of inadaquit cover. could cost the council ££££££££££'s hence there steps

now if tennants pay for a window cleaner that uses trad and an accident of any kind occurs then the tennant is in jeopody of there contract and that means BYE BYE tennant.

So the council know that cowboys exist and are covering there ass but arnt willing to help licence the window cleaning industry

regards
stuart

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2007, 07:20:06 pm »
So the council know that cowboys exist and are covering there ass but arnt willing to help licence the window cleaning industry

regards
stuart.
Stuart, surely your not implying that all trad cleaners are cowboys?
How many of us started off in window cleaning with a shiny new van and WFP set up? Most of us started out with basic equipment, I know I did. Yes I was insured, but had my ladders on an old Nissan sunny.
If ladders are not illegal, then the council is out of order. Private houses are not obliged to provide a safe working environment. Commercial premises are.
Do council houses count as commercial premises because they are rented out?
If so that would apply to all rented accommodation. I think someone in the council department has misunderstood W.H.A.L. Dai

Paul Coleman

Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2007, 01:20:20 am »
Shinner,

Our local council and a few further afield have sent letters out approx one year ago and released it in there news letter that tennante to both houses and business, although mainly houses were not to contract a trad window cleaner due to the law change and there insurance as they normally cover the buildings which is the insurance that would be claimed against if the need arised, they have contracted out the cleaning of serviced offices and comunial areas to a window cleaning company usinjg the pole system.

i have heard of a few other councils that are dong this

Thus cowboy window cleaners would or could possible have no insurance of inadaquit cover. could cost the council ££££££££££'s hence there steps

now if tennants pay for a window cleaner that uses trad and an accident of any kind occurs then the tennant is in jeopody of there contract and that means BYE BYE tennant.

So the council know that cowboys exist and are covering there ass but arnt willing to help licence the window cleaning industry

regards
stuart

Thanks for theclarification Stuart.  Think I get the picture now.

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2007, 07:52:44 am »
I think it is a good thing for councils and alkie to be involved in helping raise the profile and standards of window cleaning, particulary as this industry is very open to abuse!

I am not sure banning traditional window cleaning is perhaps the right way forward especially as there is, to date, no hard rule banning ladders.

However, licensing window cleaning and ensuring we have insurance for whatever method we choose to use is surely a good thing. At least, well I hope, the window cleaner we are talking about at the beginning of this posting may have stayed calm, approached his customer and resolved the issue.

The only concern with licencing isn't how they do it but more to the point of what they set as the requirements. One concern as you have mentioned is the traditional method, this is a must for the council to allow this method as their is no reason not to? Ladders can be used as long as the operative has taken all reasonable steps to ensure it is carried out in a responsible and safe manner.

Any action from any council to help erase the people who cause damage to this industry through one way or another should be welcomed by use all as we are the ones ultimately who pay for it by increased insurance premiums and alike!

Trev
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2007, 11:11:57 am »
Guys,

Sorry that this sounded like slating trad methods of window cleaning it is not!!

The point being that certain councils have adopted as like commercial clients to not except ladders but that isnt my point.

licencing of the entire window cleaning industry is what is needed not just trad

for eg i can buy a gas cooker and install it but i need a fully trained guy from corgi to attatch it if i dont and something goes wrong (and i live through it) my insurance would not pay up the list is endless.

Now i know i will get the stupid reply arhhh but window cleaning wont kill any one

REALLY

we all know its one of the most dangerouse jobs for insurance wfp makes it safer but the point is licencing the trade not seperating it ie: remove the cowboys that we all complain about

Forget all the Feds & Assoc's out there they need to come together Yes together like  we all did for the water ban scare. and force the issue

It does not cost money to arrange a meeting with the H&S / Fed etc Leaders & gov officials.

The reasons are there the goals are there but can we be bothered or just keep complaining.

rgds, stu

PS Home owners do have to ensure there properties are safe for working. as they employ trades to work there.

russ_clark

  • Posts: 923
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2007, 11:42:23 am »
I agree with your comments
I agree it would be much better for us 'pro's'
if the industry was licenced.
Unfortunately it is always the same.
We talk about it and nothing seems to get done about it.
I for one would be happy to get involved in some way
but it needs a respected 'pro' to do the leg work and
find out how we can get this in place.
Do we start a petition and lobby parliament ??
Oh I have started something now !! ;D
Russ

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: beware of your local window cleaner
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2007, 01:12:10 pm »
Does licencing work in Scotland!!!

A big fat NO

So why would it work in England!

Andy
PS and being the founder member of APWC I know must of the industry leaders are of the same view point