[Lee Burbidge]

Hi, we are looking at what the Guild should really stand for. As well as professionalism, do you think members should stand for a whole lot more like proving your insured, that you have had H&S training and/or if you have competence training....... me? I think Insurance and safety are the two big one's. What do you think?

...and I am fully aware that the Guild is not for every business 

[paul13]

Bit OTT me thinks

[DeLuce]

Hi Lee, if someone is insured/public liability , this would show a decent sense of legitimacy I would have thought. Especially when you consider the cowboys that come out late spring/summer time just for the beer money!
There is also the kind of window cleaning that a persons business may do. For example, I'm predominantly domestic with a few small business cleans thrown in. Therefore, I have little call for complicated h & s regs, just need basic common sense. However, others may be mainly big commercial cleaners requiring more stringent h&s requirements. But if you needed the h&s reqs to qualify for the Guild , it may isolate some potential members like myself who don't particularly need extra quals (or the extra expense acquiring them) from becoming members.

[CleanClear]

I think Insurance is a must. Its straightforward, its either yes or no that you have it.
Good question regarding H&S and/or competence quals. My guess is not a lot will have it (them), that may preclude a lot of people. Or make them up their game to be able to join?
Can't make my mind up on the last two.

[tlwcs]

I agree with the last two.
Insurance as the minimum to join, but then all the relavant help with paperwork for those who are mainly sole traders that get to quote a big one occasionally. A bit like the FSB.
Tony 

[paul13]

I agree with the help with paper work ect, but think the post is more
to do with the joining of the Guild, are you thinking of an elite organisation
Lee?
where only the high flying businesses might become members.
I have always found H&S for window cleaning pretty much common sense
and in my experience haven't needed qualifications for window cleaning or
work/contracts but maybe I need to up my game

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

I would leave H&S out of it for membership to be honest. Please don't ruin what has been excellent up to now.

[Lee Burbidge]

What about varied levels of membership that you can sign up to as your business grows, should you want to grow it? Would that work? So, standard membership insurance only then H&S next level up...

I would like the Guild to appeal to prospect customers if I can, too, so that companies know coming to the Guild for their national branches is a smart one stop solution. That be kinda neat too. Yes, defo help with them risk assessments and forms. I agree smaller companies might be happy just sticking with residential and the odd commercial but if the Guild could support those that want that extra 10K contract on top of that and the 10K contract requires H&S stuff your not used to then the Guild should be able to help if you need it.....

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

What about varied levels of membership that you can sign up to as your business grows, should you want to grow it? Would that work? So, standard membership insurance only then H&S next level up...

I would like the Guild to appeal to prospect customers if I can, too, so that companies know coming to the Guild for their national branches is a smart one stop solution. That be kinda neat too. Yes, defo help with them risk assessments and forms. I agree smaller companies might be happy just sticking with residential and the odd commercial but if the Guild could support those that want that extra 10K contract on top of that and the 10K contract requires H&S stuff your not used to then the Guild should be able to help if you need it.....

NO NO NO!!

[tlwcs]

What about varied levels of membership that you can sign up to as your business grows, should you want to grow it? Would that work? So, standard membership insurance only then H&S next level up...

I would like the Guild to appeal to prospect customers if I can, too, so that companies know coming to the Guild for their national branches is a smart one stop solution. That be kinda neat too. Yes, defo help with them risk assessments and forms. I agree smaller companies might be happy just sticking with residential and the odd commercial but if the Guild could support those that want that extra 10K contract on top of that and the 10K contract requires H&S stuff your not used to then the Guild should be able to help if you need it.....

NO NO NO!!

+1

[rosskesava]

What about varied levels of membership that you can sign up to as your business grows, should you want to grow it? Would that work? So, standard membership insurance only then H&S next level up...

I would like the Guild to appeal to prospect customers if I can, too, so that companies know coming to the Guild for their national branches is a smart one stop solution. That be kinda neat too. Yes, defo help with them risk assessments and forms. I agree smaller companies might be happy just sticking with residential and the odd commercial but if the Guild could support those that want that extra 10K contract on top of that and the 10K contract requires H&S stuff your not used to then the Guild should be able to help if you need it.....

NO NO NO!!

+1

+2 Absolutely NO NO NO

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

Can a sunday afternoon football referee take charge of a Premier league match?
Why should someone with a £60 insurance certificate be entitled/considered to take  charge of a large 2,3,5, 10k contract?

Standards are a must.
IMO

[paul13]

What about varied levels of membership that you can sign up to as your business grows, should you want to grow it? Would that work? So, standard membership insurance only then H&S next level up...

I would like the Guild to appeal to prospect customers if I can, too, so that companies know coming to the Guild for their national branches is a smart one stop solution. That be kinda neat too. Yes, defo help with them risk assessments and forms. I agree smaller companies might be happy just sticking with residential and the odd commercial but if the Guild could support those that want that extra 10K contract on top of that and the 10K contract requires H&S stuff your not used to then the Guild should be able to help if you need it.....

Sorry Lee I'm confused
So are you meaning different levels of membership offered or
need for qualifications to join?
Am I right in thinking H&S can be done in house as this is my experience when
going for contracts or is there a need for qualifications from outside I don't know about?

[Window Lickers]

How d'you prove you have health and safety competence?

[paul13]

Can a sunday afternoon football referee take charge of a Premier league match?
Why should someone with a £60 insurance certificate be entitled/considered to take  charge of a large 2,3,5, 10k contract?

Standards are a must.
IMO

Now I am confused, if the £60 insurance covers the person to do the job why not?

[paul13]

How d'you prove you have health and safety competence?

+1

[Window Lickers]

I would have thought a tax return too if you want to be kosher!

[Window Lickers]

A certificate proving your tank was professionally fitted.

[Window Lickers]

That you only use Gardiner extreme poles on a day to day basis.

[wfp master]

so the more insurance you have the better window cleaner you are.

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

If you where to employ a 'master builder' would you expect him to turn up working out of the back of his sierra with aldi power tools?  

[Window Lickers]

You have to have a rain guarantee and prove you always work in inclement weather?

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

God I like you!

[wfp master]

If you where to employ a 'master builder' would you expect him to turn up working out of the back of his sierra with aldi power tools?  

he can turn up on whatever he likes if his works good who cares.

[paul13]

If you where to employ a 'master builder' would you expect him to turn up working out of the back of his sierra with aldi power tools?  

Take your point but I wouldn't expect some one working like that to be interested in
insurance never mind the Guild.
I would think any one looking to join the guild is trying to better there business
and is looking for help with paper work ect but most importantly stickers for the van

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

Lee, as long as everyone gets a sticker for there van everyone will be happy!

Without a CSCS card you cant get on a modern building site to clean windows. Why would a window cleaning 'Guild' let any tom dick or harry join?
No offence tom dick and harry!
If the 'Guild' is to attract serious customers, businesses wanting to join it WILL put the time and effort in to train up in all aspects of window cleaning.

STANDARDS ARE NEEDED !

 

[CleanClear]

A certificate proving your tank was professionally fitted.

Jesus !!! (see what i did there) Don't even joke about that.

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

If you where to employ a 'master builder' would you expect him to turn up working out of the back of his sierra with aldi power tools?  

he can turn up on whatever he likes if his works good who cares.

Correct he can turn up and use what he likes but you will be hard pushed to find one that does. It should be all about meeting standards.

[CleanClear]

If the 'Guild' is to attract serious customers,
 

You see the Guilds role as "attracting customers" ? If so it might be worth taking a punt on the offering by Approved Cleaning as an alternative?

[wfp master]

So its all about getting stickers for the van
Surely some one on here can make some fakes.
Then we can all be masters.

[wfp master]

Does the competence in window cleaning include trad.? That could be a stumbling block for a lot.

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

Yes it should, all areas of window cleaning. STANDARDS is key IMO.
Cleanclear, my business plan is 100% domestic so my commercial are all a bonus. I personally don't see the need to join anything, but training and standards are key to business growth.  

[CleanClear]

Yes it should, all areas of window cleaning. STANDARDS is key IMO.
Cleanclear, my business plan is 100% domestic so my commercial are all a bonus. I personally don't see the need to join anything, but training and standards are key to business growth.  

Well there's a problem. I thought (maybe incorrectly) that the benefits of joining a trade association might be that they could help you qualify for stuff. There's a sticky at the top of this forum from the FWC that helps you get accreditation. So if you NEED to already have accreditation to join a Guild, then what sort of trade body is it? An advertising funnel for qualified cleaners, or, a genuine trade body for its members?

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

Accreditation.
Guild/FWC=Yes they have insurance, please use them with confidence.
Customer= Why have they done a really poor job of our windows and work outside of H&S laws?
Oh sorry, they have the correct insurance though!!!!

[paul13]

Accreditation.
Guild/FWC=Yes they have insurance, please use them with confidence.
Customer= Why have they done a really poor job of our windows and work outside of H&S laws?
Oh sorry, they have the correct insurance though!!!!

The company would then have to explain them selfs to
the guild or be barred

[Perfect Windows]

I clean domestic only.

My franchisees clean domestic only.  They are businesses independent of mine.

None of us have more than five employees, so we don't need written risk assessments.  We'd presumably be second class citizens in this new guild order.

Vin

[paul13]

I clean domestic only.

My franchisees clean domestic only.  They are businesses independent of mine.

None of us have more than five employees, so we don't need written risk assessments.  We'd presumably be second class citizens in this new guild order.

Vin

 

[wfp master]

I clean domestic only.

My franchisees clean domestic only.  They are businesses independent of mine.

None of us have more than five employees, so we don't need written risk assessments.  We'd presumably be second class citizens in this new guild order.

Vin

but but .....you get stickers for the vans.

[davids3511]

What about varied levels of membership that you can sign up to as your business grows, should you want to grow it? Would that work? So, standard membership insurance only then H&S next level up...

I would like the Guild to appeal to prospect customers if I can, too, so that companies know coming to the Guild for their national branches is a smart one stop solution. That be kinda neat too. Yes, defo help with them risk assessments and forms. I agree smaller companies might be happy just sticking with residential and the odd commercial but if the Guild could support those that want that extra 10K contract on top of that and the 10K contract requires H&S stuff your not used to then the Guild should be able to help if you need it.....

You're just trying to monetise us. 'companies know coming to the Guild for their national branches'

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

3rd class.
1. Paid up full member with insurance.
2. insurance with pushbike and ladder thought about getting a RAMS.
3. RAMS, NVQ but not a paid up member.  

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

Sorry Vin just seen you are a member. I am the 3rd class. 

[Perfect Windows]

Sorry Vin just seen you are a member. I am the 3rd class. 

I'd like to be in the membership class to be called "bottom of the barrel".

Vin

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

Yes it should, all areas of window cleaning. STANDARDS is key IMO.
Cleanclear, my business plan is 100% domestic so my commercial are all a bonus. I personally don't see the need to join anything, but training and standards are key to business growth.  

F**k me, another Alan Sugar!

If you knew the background to the Guild then you'd realise just what utter migraine inducing sh*te you are talking!

[Perfect Windows]

I agree smaller companies might be happy just sticking with residential and the odd commercial

Some "larger companies" are happy just sticking with residential.  Ask Ian Lancaster.  Where will they fit in your H&S rankings?

Vin

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

And whys that winpoclean? And not quite an alan sugar yet, BUT with 3 full time vans in 2.5 years and another 2 starting this year I AM on my way. Crack on.

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

Oh yes, and is this the holy grail in mean 'guild' that has had to find a new owner?

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

 

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

 
Didn't really do it for me. 

[Pete Thompson]

most hilarious thread ever!

I think for guild membership, you should have to agree to Lee living with you in your house for a week.  He will watch you eat, to make sure you have nice table manners.  He will make note of the TV shows you watch, to make sure your viewing habits are appropriate (by his standards).

He will make a note of what time you go to bed, how much alcohol you drink and how you treat your wife and children.

He will also inspect your internet browser history to make sure you meet his standards.

And he will watch you clean windows, as he is the supreme expert of the world in all matters of window cleaning and a technique is only permissible if he says so.

If I was a member of the guild, I would now leave it since a muppet is now in charge.

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

That's a bit unfair pete.
IMO Lee is doing more than you are for the window cleaning industry.
Correct?

[G Griffin]

I think he's Guilding the lily. 

[Lee Burbidge]

Can a sunday afternoon football referee take charge of a Premier league match?
Why should someone with a £60 insurance certificate be entitled/considered to take  charge of a large 2,3,5, 10k contract?

Standards are a must.
IMO

I agree but I think there is a misunderstanding here about what I said..... you would obviously have to have the right insurance for one. The next level is uploading your health & safety credentials for the next level of membership is what I was asking. 

Ppl have to start somewhere, why not. I remember my first massive contract.... do you?

[Lee Burbidge]

How d'you prove you have health and safety competence?

By uploading your training certificates.

[Lee Burbidge]

Lee, as long as everyone gets a sticker for there van everyone will be happy!

Without a CSCS card you cant get on a modern building site to clean windows. Why would a window cleaning 'Guild' let any tom dick or harry join?
No offence tom dick and harry!
If the 'Guild' is to attract serious customers, businesses wanting to join it WILL put the time and effort in to train up in all aspects of window cleaning.

STANDARDS ARE NEEDED !

 

Funny and well said.

[Lee Burbidge]

Yes it should, all areas of window cleaning. STANDARDS is key IMO.
Cleanclear, my business plan is 100% domestic so my commercial are all a bonus. I personally don't see the need to join anything, but training and standards are key to business growth.  

Well there's a problem. I thought (maybe incorrectly) that the benefits of joining a trade association might be that they could help you qualify for stuff. There's a sticky at the top of this forum from the FWC that helps you get accreditation. So if you NEED to already have accreditation to join a Guild, then what sort of trade body is it? An advertising funnel for qualified cleaners, or, a genuine trade body for its members?

The Guild is new to me and I have had it less than a week. Who says the Guild cannot help facilitate this. Its only natural for me to explore this as I want whats best for its members.

[Window Lickers]

There are guys on here who were cleaning windows before you were conceived Lee. And you think uploading a few training certificates qualifies them for a few extra bumper stickers?

I'll send you mine, they're forged, but they're certificates.

[Lee Burbidge]

I clean domestic only.

My franchisees clean domestic only.  They are businesses independent of mine.

None of us have more than five employees, so we don't need written risk assessments.  We'd presumably be second class citizens in this new guild order.

Vin

Vin since this is an open to debate and discussion, please do not assume you are 'second class', you would not be and you are not. Actually, its good practice and common sense to start thinking and training about health & safety on or before your first employee. If you have employees you will still need to back yourself up to show that you have a risk assessment for the work your employees carry out....... if something happens to your employees they dont say we wont investigate or check what you have in place for safety awareness because you have less than 5 employees. Working safe starts with YOU, then your first employee when they arrive.

[gary999]

Is there one window cleaning organisation or standard that is
legal requirement for anyone to be a window cleaner in England

Until then the likes of the fed or the co-operative known as the guild
are pointless.

[Perfect Windows]

I clean domestic only.

My franchisees clean domestic only.  They are businesses independent of mine.

None of us have more than five employees, so we don't need written risk assessments.  We'd presumably be second class citizens in this new guild order.

Vin

Vin since this is an open to debate and discussion, please do not assume you are 'second class', you would not be and you are not. Actually, its good practice and common sense to start thinking and training about health & safety on or before your first employee. If you have employees you will still need to back yourself up to show that you have a risk assessment for the work your employees carry out....... if something happens to your employees they dont say we wont investigate or check what you have in place for safety awareness because you have less than 5 employees. Working safe starts with YOU, then your first employee when they arrive.

I understand what you're saying.  However, for those of us that franchise, we're not going to be employing anyone, ever.  So, our risk assessments don't need to be written.  In your plan, we could have a hundred franchisees and not have a written risk assessment within the organisation (remember, domestic only).  How would we get to the stage of Level 2 (or whatever) of membership?

Vin

[Lee Burbidge]

There are guys on here who were cleaning windows before you were conceived Lee. And you think uploading a few training certificates qualifies them for a few extra bumper stickers?

I'll send you mine, they're forged, but they're certificates.

I think pulling the age card is low. Does it matter? Its action and ideas I look for. Just because window cleaners have cleaned before other window cleaners were in nappies does not mean none of us should think out of the box and look for improvements in the industry.

I dont think anything of the sort re certificates. And you missed the point of the Guild completely. I have taken on the Guild to offer something really valuable to window cleaners.

I respect your decision for your business. You make lots of micro decisions for your business through out its life, what is not appropriate for your business does not mean it is not appropriate for another business. You are entitled to your views but assuming other window cleaners don't need something for their business is wrong. It's just not right for your business.

[Lee Burbidge]

I clean domestic only.

My franchisees clean domestic only.  They are businesses independent of mine.

None of us have more than five employees, so we don't need written risk assessments.  We'd presumably be second class citizens in this new guild order.

Vin

Vin since this is an open to debate and discussion, please do not assume you are 'second class', you would not be and you are not. Actually, its good practice and common sense to start thinking and training about health & safety on or before your first employee. If you have employees you will still need to back yourself up to show that you have a risk assessment for the work your employees carry out....... if something happens to your employees they dont say we wont investigate or check what you have in place for safety awareness because you have less than 5 employees. Working safe starts with YOU, then your first employee when they arrive.

I understand what you're saying.  However, for those of us that franchise, we're not going over 5 employees ever.  So, our risk assessments don't need to be written.  In your plan, we could have a hundred franchisees and not have a written risk assessment within the organisation (remember, domestic only).  How would we get to the stage of Level 2 (or whatever) of membership?

Vin

Hi Vin, I see. Yes your franchisees personally become safety responsible. Do you teach them any safety stuff as part of the franchise program? We clean domestic and commercial, I still get my guys trained even if just residential. Anyway getting back to your point and we are still discussing the options here. No decisions have been made...... would you want to go to a level two? That is the topic here so your views would be no insurance is enough, right?

Let me ask you something else. If there is a H&S level and an insurance level only and your happy with th insurance level why would you be bothered too much about the H&S level.... it would be there for you for when ever you need it, if you needed it. Personally I still think some safety training must still be given off your own back even if your happy to prove membership insurance..... IMO

Hey, but its your business.... you run it how you like. You know best.

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

How d'you prove you have health and safety competence?

By uploading your training certificates.

And what about all those superb, excellent window cleaners who posses what really matters- no certificates but good old common sense? Are you really going to isolate these potential members Lee? Or are you just hoping they'll join anyway & allow any potential customer see that they are at the bottom of "YOUR" pile!!

You are going to kill it mate, you'll end up with 10 members!!

[Lee Burbidge]

How d'you prove you have health and safety competence?

By uploading your training certificates.

And what about all those superb, excellent window cleaners who posses what really matters- no certificates but good old common sense? Are you really going to isolate these potential members Lee? Or are you just hoping they'll join anyway & allow any potential customer see that they are at the bottom of "YOUR" pile!!

You are going to kill it mate, you'll end up with 10 members!!

You have missed the point. This will be a valuable tool for your business if you want it. Not choosing to join is fine. I remember when I researched the magazine on here two years ago, heard all the same stuff..... but I know this place was a hard talking place where amongst all the noise I could get the right information to help me make a decision. If I listened to the noise, the magazine would never of started. Rhetoric like 'bottom of your pile' and isolating window cleaners' does not fit in to what I understand this Guild to be. So, what would you prefer to see?

[Window Lickers]

And what about all those superb, excellent window cleaners who posses what really matters- no certificates but good old common sense? Are you really going to isolate these potential members Lee? Or are you just hoping they'll join anyway & allow any potential customer see that they are at the bottom of "YOUR" pile!!

You are going to kill it mate, you'll end up with 10 members!!

My point exactly. Just expressed differently. I was previously a member of the Guild, all I ended up getting was a sun-bleached van sticker. I was a member of Nationwide window cleaners, all I got was bugger all. Not sure what the point is of trying to re-invigorate interest in it.

The sun shining does more to raise the profile of our trade than anything else.

[paul13]

Hi Lee, Are you looking for ways to help window cleaners to grow there business
or are you looking to make different levels of membership for
I asked earlier about H&S and Qualifications where do you send your employees?
I have in house training records would these qualify for guild membership?
As for qualifications where do you get them? for window cleaning
IMO proof of insurance and licence in Scotland should be enough then the
focus should be on H&S and training  with paper work help ect for those
who want it.
 

[paul13]

Might have been a bit unfair with my post
H&S always gets me  worked up just think its a bit extreme now,
not just in window cleaning but in all aspects of work/life.
Anyway respect the work you do Lee and I'm sure you will do
well for the Guild.
I am now a member

[James Bulton]

In stead of have requirement to join you should have eduction  modules to up the game of all members, and this should be on going so as to lift the integrity of its members. So lifting the standers of the guilds profile and its members.Maye a test after each module.Creating value in being a member is key is to the success of any institutional group.
Things should be a requirement after 6 months as you will need to sell the concept of insurance to  member. At this point if you have not achieved this the member would have to conform or not get full membership. But you information needs to be quality.
One also needs to get discounts for members and as many things as you can, to enhance the need for  .membership.
Another died quango or old boys club is the last thing you need.

[capn sparkle]

I've got a certificate from MENSA telling me I didn't get in!!