tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
like my van like mykit
« on: August 08, 2008, 10:13:34 pm »
been itching to show offthe van and system here goes

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2008, 10:17:43 pm »
on its side !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[attachment deleted by admin]

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2008, 10:20:11 pm »
like my new style

d s windowcleaning

  • Posts: 2782
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2008, 10:24:14 pm »
looks great mate what size tank is that you are using and what sort of price did you pay ?
where theres muck theres money

ftp

  • Posts: 4694
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2008, 10:25:05 pm »
Sorry - not a patch on Discounts!

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2008, 10:31:00 pm »
650 l and £ 5 ,200 IT IS A GOOD SYSTEm only filters resin as maintainance works out at 22 per day for the yaer and next year it will half the daily cost most extras are the add on stuff we all seem to need poles backpack ect changed my life

jouk45

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2008, 10:33:14 pm »
tony hope you dont mind i straightened up your pic, nice sett up m8

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2008, 10:42:29 pm »
We are all proud of our systems and that's a good thing. More people should post like this because other peoples systems are interesting and a good place to pinch ideas.

Explain a bit more Tony. Did you have a system before? how is it making water? why does this suit how you work?

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2008, 11:14:09 pm »
Is that 1/2" hose you're using? How are you getting on with it?

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2008, 11:44:16 pm »
not wanting to cause a fuss but......
thats a pro installation
and just 4 bolts holding it down
the cage looks good and strong
so what does ionics set up do thats better ???
unless i am missing summat :)
nice set up btw
post a pic in six weeks ;)
b4 and after ;D

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2008, 12:25:12 am »
Yes it looks very nice. Nice clean system and van.  :)

Two things, those clamps really do not look safe at all, and 1/2" hose, that's like ancient, mini/micro bore all the way.

R.V.A Window Cleaning Services

  • Posts: 193
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2008, 12:59:59 am »
not wanting to cause a fuss but......
thats a pro installation
and just 4 bolts holding it down
the cage looks good and strong
so what does ionics set up do thats better ???
unless i am missing summat :)
nice set up btw
post a pic in six weeks ;)
b4 and after ;D

Get an ionics system & find out , to me it looks like a cheaper copy ,only time will tell
In the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2008, 09:12:15 am »
I see 6 bolts,... but not very hefty looking ones,...

LWC

  • Posts: 6824
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2008, 09:20:53 am »
JEALOUSLY PREVAILS

looks nice as mate. very clean and tidy

hope mine looks as good as that

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2008, 09:53:15 am »
That is a very smart looking system and I'm sure will work very well for you.

not wanting to cause a fuss but......
thats a pro installation
and just 4 bolts holding it down
the cage looks good and strong
so what does ionics set up do thats better ???
unless i am missing summat :)
nice set up btw
post a pic in six weeks ;)
b4 and after ;D

Ionics systems are no better at doing the job than the above system. However where the real difference lies is in the safety of the securing system. The clamps on the above system will rip out in a 30mph impact, the ones on the Ionic's systems will not. That is a fact. If you do not believe this have a look at the various clamps used in the Ionics crash test program, they started off with clamps as above and these simply tore apart under the stress, the ones that Ionics have now developed do not. I would seriously look into beefing up the clamping method on the above set-up. This is my only criticism of the above set-up as everything else looks good, even the frame looks tough enough. I am not an Ionics 'fanboy', but facts are facts.

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2008, 10:55:34 am »
I never did get that magazine Alex, do you by any chance have it in Digital format.

Also what I saw is, changing DI resin is going to be a pain, they are o ring clipped on hoses.

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2008, 02:42:28 pm »
I just noticed the price,.. £5200.

Does that include the van????

rhys11

  • Posts: 433
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2008, 11:39:27 pm »
I just noticed the price,.. £5200.

Does that include the van????
of coures it does lol
rhys

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2008, 12:44:59 am »
not wanting to cause a fuss but......
thats a pro installation
and just 4 bolts holding it down
the cage looks good and strong
so what does ionics set up do thats better ???
unless i am missing summat :)
nice set up btw
post a pic in six weeks ;)
b4 and after ;D

Get an ionics system & find out , to me it looks like a cheaper copy ,only time will tell
i dont want an ionics system
mine works fine thanks
as for all the crash test stuff ???
if any large company wants to drive my diy scudo set up into a wall at 40 mph feel free ;D
its a 650 litre ibc held down with ratchet straps :o
i want 5k in advance for you to wreck it
and any/all surviving parts
you can film it and use the film to promote your safe systems
serious offer ;D

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2008, 12:53:50 am »
btw ;D
IF the test dont go the way its planned to go
ie the diy system performs well
i still get paid
serious offer ionics ;D
its  650 ibc
mounted in a steel retainer
bolted thru floor
held down with ratchet straps
its a t reg scudo
motd in june
red ;)

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2008, 10:51:11 am »
btw ;D
IF the test dont go the way its planned to go
ie the diy system performs well
i still get paid
serious offer ionics ;D
its  650 ibc
mounted in a steel retainer
bolted thru floor
held down with ratchet straps
its a t reg scudo
motd in june
red ;)

There is nothing 'unsafe' about ratchet straps. I would prefer to have the above system held in place with 4 decent ratchet straps to approved mounting points than the very feeble metal fixings as shown above. If had the above system I would add a couple of ratchet straps to give it half a chance of staying place.

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2008, 08:04:17 pm »
10 bolts in total
hi tensile apparently
spreader plates behind
retainer tray is 5mm galvanized steel
4 cleats welded on to attach the straps
two straps 5 tonne
offer still stands ;)

J.D

  • Posts: 636
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2008, 10:02:25 pm »
It looks the dogs coohoonas.  ;)  I would stick the straps on as well, better safe than sorry . It looks a nice tidy job and a decent price for van and system. The signage on the van is nice and minimal and i think personally  that works much better. I see window cleaning vans out there with so much info on them, you see everything but whats most important "The telephone number". What year is your van?

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2008, 10:11:50 pm »
thanks for the interest mates the system was expensive at 5200 but when i was looking ionics was 8500 for a similar set up plus extras brodex was about the same and it looked a good set up it is my first system and after 20 years in the game i was about to give up..................................... go back to crime or whatever this has given me a new lease of life
my hair fell out geting it to clean well but thanks to you all on the forum the problems are solved .
the learning curve was swift and fast just like when you buy your first motorbike .
the half inch hose had to go microbore all the way the fibreglass poles went west when they wore out !!!!
backpack were discovered as well as many small mods to get the thing to do what i wanted it to do.
 it impresses the public and fellow wc alike which for snob value is quite important.
 it makes water well and takes a few hours to fill up but can be pluged in on my travels...  i have had to spend on resin filters only once and its a year old the bolts were not an issue till ionics sent the brouchere through it has plates under the floor as well as the brackets on the floor all around the tank the price included fitting and speedlining. i like it and wow has it changed my life
now i truely dont know what is going to kill me.................... as the ladders are now just for access and show i do 75%WFP THE REST TRAD  life is sooooooo much better now  it has cost over the year about £22 per day to buy and run with all the extras and will go down to £11 by this time next year. i would recomend it but as always think of the cost can your busniss support this type of outlay the van was 8500 so all in it had cost over14000 to set up new work has come in and i make over 100 per week more than i did two years ago and dont feel dead at the end of the day window cleaning is no longer a young mans game

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2008, 10:14:19 pm »
thanks for the interest mates the system was expensive at 5200 but when i was looking ionics was 8500 for a similar set up plus extras brodex was about the same and it looked a good set up it is my first system and after 20 years in the game i was about to give up..................................... go back to crime or whatever this has given me a new lease of life
my hair fell out geting it to clean well but thanks to you all on the forum the problems are solved .
the learning curve was swift and fast just like when you buy your first motorbike .
the half inch hose had to go microbore all the way the fibreglass poles went west when they wore out !!!!
backpack were discovered as well as many small mods to get the thing to do what i wanted it to do.
 it impresses the public and fellow wc alike which for snob value is quite important.
 it makes water well and takes a few hours to fill up but can be pluged in on my travels...  i have had to spend on resin filters only once and its a year old the bolts were not an issue till ionics sent the brouchere through it has plates under the floor as well as the brackets on the floor all around the tank the price included fitting and speedlining. i like it and wow has it changed my life
now i truely dont know what is going to kill me.................... as the ladders are now just for access and show i do 75%WFP THE REST TRAD  life is sooooooo much better now  it has cost over the year about £22 per day to buy and run with all the extras and will go down to £11 by this time next year. i would recomend it but as always think of the cost can your busniss support this type of outlay the van was 8500 so all in it had cost over14000 to set up new work has come in and i make over 100 per week more than i did two years ago and dont feel dead at the end of the day window cleaning is no longer a young mans game
Not being funny at all but you were ripped off big time at £5200 for that,they were cashing in that firm in the early days of WFP,they wouldn`t get anywhere near that today hence no website anymore i think.

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2008, 10:15:06 pm »
Over 4k for a days work,not bad if you can get it.

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2008, 10:22:37 pm »
j.d on the drivers door nice an minimal the leaflets cards and letterheads all match. a far cry from scribbled notes on a bit of scrap paper - jeans tee shirt and an old astra estate no offence to the trad boys of course but life is so much better looking pro- feeling pro just pull along side the trad boys in the n reg car and you will feel the difference sounds snobby but this is the way our busniss will go and grow look at the building trade  and bt  and sky ect and how thir image has improved just by a little bit of showmanship we can do much the same and charge accordingly
best moment when  a new custy said i called after seeing ONE of your vans  i see them around a lot these days !!!!!!!!!!!!in  it was me having a sarnie  and a brew advertiseing does work... try it boys

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2008, 10:22:53 pm »
Sheesh, £5200 for the system alone? Should have gone purefreedom and saved yourself 3k for a better system.  :(

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2008, 10:27:03 pm »
nw no offence taken i liked the look of the set up and went for it could have gone to ..................but diddnt.
 ask later what my second set up would be and that would be a different question

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2008, 10:31:10 pm »
tim live and learn but as it says in the bukal do not regret what you have done and do not repeat the mistake

vision tech

  • Posts: 235
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2008, 10:47:38 pm »
Tony,my surname is oliver,wish i had used that name for the buisness,
van looks great,wish you well.
I started out with nothing......I still have most of it.

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2008, 11:02:46 pm »
hey vision small world eh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! us olivers better stick together

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2008, 11:10:28 pm »
hey vision small world eh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! us olivers better stick together

niceandclean

  • Posts: 1897
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2008, 11:11:38 pm »
tim live and learn but as it says in the bukal do not regret what you have done and do not repeat the mistake

I have an Ionics Thermopure system, its 3 years old, they cost alot of money but i have never lost a day of work because anything on it hasnt worked. So in my eyes it has paid for itself many many times over. I have just had a new hot system fitted by another company, picked it up on thursday, it was alot cheaper than Ionics and they catered for the design that i came up with, nobody else would, especially Ionics who only fit off the shelf systems. But if the new system is as good as the Ionics one, i will be well chuffed. I think as long as you are happy with your purchase then thats all that matters, your customers are impressed by how it looks, who cares what other people think?

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2008, 12:14:39 am »
Quote
thanks for the interest mates the system was expensive at 5200 but when i was looking ionics was 8500 for a similar set up plus extras brodex was about the same and it looked a good

Sorry mate but thats wrong, and I have to agree that is a major rip off.

If thats a 600 litre (looks like two of those pre-formed 300 litre tanks to me), with RO unit, Ionics version of the same thing is their Pro-5 which is only £4115 and its crash tested, and you get to use the Reach and Wash logo.

My system is a 600 litre pro6 thermopure, cost £9,300 but only because it uses hot water.

It looks nice, but as alex has said, those "clamps" look exactly like the ones that failed ionics own test, and also there is defo less steel work around the tanks to absorb an impact.

And forget about ever so amazing underplates, they rip straight through the floor no problem, but even if they didnt the clamps fail anyway.

I'd have paid less and gone to ionics.
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2008, 12:19:37 am »
Quote
thanks for the interest mates the system was expensive at 5200 but when i was looking ionics was 8500 for a similar set up plus extras brodex was about the same and it looked a good

Sorry mate but thats wrong, and I have to agree that is a major rip off.

If thats a 600 litre (looks like two of those pre-formed 300 litre tanks to me), with RO unit, Ionics version of the same thing is their Pro-5 which is only £4115 and its crash tested, and you get to use the Reach and Wash logo.

It looks nice, but as alex has said, those "clamps" look exactly like the ones that failed ionics own test, and also there is defo less steel work around the tanks to absorb an impact.

And forget about ever so amazing underplates, they rip straight through the floor no problem, but even if they didnt the clamps fail anyway.

I'd have paid less and gone to ionics.
at 30 mph, please Tennant correct me if I am wrong, normal speed 40mph it is on big roads place to place short stops 30 mph really is not very much, it is not tested at A-road speeds, motor way speeds 50 60 70 80 ????????????????????


Please correct me


Ian

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2008, 12:29:35 am »
window washers, i dont understand what you're asking.

What would be the point of a 60, 70, 80mph test? you'd probably be dead from the impact anyway.  All i am saying is that those clamps aint gonna stand up even to 30mph, and it cost more than ionics, and that would withstand 30mph crash.

Also, even if I accept your argument, surely some crash testing is better than no crash testing, which is what you've got matey.

LOL
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2008, 12:34:03 am »
No offense but I dont see it.  It isnt a valid point at all.

I see what I ALWAYS see when this is talked about.  People rubbishing a company for doing something good.

You're gonna tell me it would be better if ionic had not done it?

EDIT: wow the amazing disappearing post!  did I make such a good argument I changed your mind?
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2008, 12:38:28 am »
No offense but I dont see it.  It isnt a valid point at all.

I see what I ALWAYS see when this is talked about.  People rubbishing a company for doing something good.

You're gonna tell me it would be better if ionic had not done it?
Dude chill, I am not knocking Ionics at all, I think what they are doing is a good thing a little over priced maybe but good all the same, my point is I see so many people bang on about inoics are crash tested which as far as I know is 30 mph, my point is what about 40 50 60 70 mph it is not tested, if you drive round at 30 everywhere then they are great if not then the high price for the same system with cheaper running costs has got to be a better option.

Thsi is my point and I think it is a valid one..


I am not taking away what Ionics have done, more that I have a point on price and the safety goes out of the windows over 30 mph with ionics but the cost does not do down.


Ian

p.s editing was due to editting in your post m8 people that can not afford it  ::) was edited, what I said was in reply to the post was Ionics crash test as far as I am aware at 30 mph, so at 40 50 60 70 80 it is not aplicable but the price does not come down and saying that meanings that other are IMO better because they do not have the high maintenence fees of Ionics due to there resin vessles ect that have to be filled by them (as far as I am aware dont quote me but I think this true)unless you know how to convert as many will not know on here, Tennant I do not need to hide a thing I say m8, I am upfront and to the point with what I say m8 always have been always will be. I feel you cant back up what I am saying on the crash test side apart from some is better than none which I agree with you on but as I said at 40 50 60 70 80 is is not tested so should you not pay a normal fee for a bit of metal a pump and plastic tank ?, I know you have a new system and I am pleased for you, nor and am I taking anything away from you as I think it looks great, but I am giving my view like it or not as you do.  :D


Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2008, 07:44:59 am »
I reckon we should club together and crash Thorpe's rig at 70 MPH!!!

Nothing scientific,... I just think it'd be fun!

;)


While I agree Ionics have done a good thing,.. they didn't take it far enough. Crash testing their rigs at more realistic speeds (say 50 or 60 mph) would have made a much bigger impression on the industry, so why didn't they do it?
Put simply, it was little more than a publicity stunt,... but a very effective one that got ppl like Tennent convinced beyond all reason that Ionics are the ONLY solution! (No offence Tennent!)

But yeah,.. £5200 was a rip off,.. Ionics are expensive and they would have given you a better (Crash tested!!!) setup for less.

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2008, 11:16:44 am »
Tonyoliver it is a nice system. What you paid for it and whether you are happy with it is purely subjective to you. You have probably made your money back by now anyway so it doesn't matter too much.

Ionics are often not as expensive as they first appear to be. In my mind there are two serious system contenders - Ionics and Purefreedom (or Exel systems which have been designed by the same bloke at the same price).

Prices:
Ionics Pro-5 (600 litre) = £4115 + Fitting Kit £350 + Fitting Labour £300 + Speedliner £600 total = £5365 + VAT = £6303 so about £1100 more than you paid, Tony.

Purefreedom (650 litre) = £1895 (fitted inc VAT + protectakote floor) saving you about £3300, and about £4400 cheaper than the Ionics system.

In my mind your system looks a lot tougher than the purefreedom type of system. It has the advantage of twin tanks for stability and the framework looks like it would actually contain the tanks in the event of an impact.

With the above competition and choice in systems you can see why we do not supply fitted systems!

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2008, 12:15:05 pm »
The metal of the tank cage compared to the purefreedom one looks very feeble. The purefreedom cages are very very solid, I can know because I have one.

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2008, 12:38:32 pm »
Errr  Alex

I think you will find that it is me (Exel Systems) that does the 40 inch RO systems for £1895.00  :o

In my opinion our cages are a lot tougher as well. I subcontract the fitting of the tanks to the vans to a company who have been in business for around 40 years. They are commercial vehicle and trailer dealers/repairers so they know their business and make sure the tanks are fitted very safely.

I can still make a profit (Not enough)  :'( at this price as well.

Andrew

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2008, 12:40:15 pm »
That IS a seriously good price, unbeatable I would say.

jaykie

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2008, 12:43:43 pm »
id have to say my purefreedom system looks solid and has more bolts down one side then the whole of that system.

Chris

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2008, 12:56:25 pm »
Errr  Alex

I think you will find that it is me (Exel Systems) that does the 40 inch RO systems for £1895.00  :o

In my opinion our cages are a lot tougher as well. I subcontract the fitting of the tanks to the vans to a company who have been in business for around 40 years. They are commercial vehicle and trailer dealers/repairers so they know their business and make sure the tanks are fitted very safely.

I can still make a profit (Not enough)  :'( at this price as well.

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

My mistake, I must have got confused with www.purefreedomsystems.co.uk and www.purefreedom.co.uk !!

Having looked at both cages the Outreach one above in my opinion looks a lot tougher than any of the purefreedom ones I have seen. It uses box-work stainless steel as opposed to angle iron as shown below on a typical purefreedom system.



Also the systems below have a very sparse metal cage:





Maybe your latest Exel system ones are better made?



I really do not know how you (or purefreedom) can sell and fit them at such a low price. The system itself represents incredible value for money  :)

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2008, 01:18:52 pm »
am i allowed to order my SL2 a couple of days early alex? or is it still wednesday mate?? ;)

You have mail

Steve CM

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2008, 01:45:24 pm »
i don't mate. forward it to steve@clearmagic.co.uk please

AJ

  • Posts: 1262
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2008, 02:45:14 pm »
Tony,my surname is oliver,wish i had used that name for the buisness,
van looks great,wish you well.
me too!

Wayne Thomas

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2008, 07:28:30 pm »
The first pure freedom pic from Alex shows a frame constructed of angle iron welded together which isn't half the strength of box section framework and flat bar (in the centre) which has the bare minimum strength possible.  Also, if the tank develops a serious split/leak and needs replacing, the whole frame has to be unbolted just to replace the tank. IMO that is a very poorly thought out  design, fabricated as a professional system when it comes to user practicality.

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2008, 07:56:15 pm »
I've got mixed feelings about all this 'safety'

Safety is indeed important. But is an Ionics actually 'safe' ?

Suppose seat belts were 'safe' upto 30mph but not tested beyond that speed. Would they really be 'safe' ?

Ionics have indeed made steps in the right direction, but the forces involved with stopping a ton of water (or a tonne of anything!) are huge!

OK, so Ionics are tested to a level....is that a level that would be recognised by the government? Obviously not.

There is an argument that you are lulling purchasers into a false sense of security by testing to a very low standard (30mph being one of the lowest speed restrictions in the UK) and there is a very real possibility that those same vehicles will venture onto 40mph or 60mph or even 70mph road/motorways.....there is nothing on the Ionics website that suggests you SHOULD NOT travel on roads above 30 mph?

So, I would suggest that Ionics limit their vehicles to 30mph (as in the case of heavy goods vehicles which are restricted to 56mph) or point out to customers that their systems are ONLY tested to meet a crash at 30mph.

In either case, this is not a government standard and is merely a 'selling tactic' by a company.

I would welcome a clear guidline from the government on this issue.

If my vehicle is allowed to travel at 70mph then my 'fixed load' should be tested to meet a crash at 70mph....but as we all know, we'd be travelling around in 7.5 tonne trucks to meet this spec.

....whether we owned an Ionics or a DIY sert-up.

 



   

 

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2008, 08:01:22 pm »
Very well said David!

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2008, 08:32:02 pm »
It would be more interesting to see the results after 70mph,it`s hard to beleive it would stay in place at that speed but in real terms 60-70mph would give you the true answer.

Roger Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2008, 09:01:40 pm »
All these new setups look extremley impressive, shiny and glitsy but i cant help thinking why o why did you pay that much for a system when you can build your own for half that price that will do the same job as the nice new and shiny ones do. How many of your customers domestic or commercial ask to see inside your van, Non of mine ever have.

I have a 1000 litre caged IBC in the back of my Renault Master held down with 4 x 10 ton ratchet straps with eight high tensile steel brackets bolted  into the chassis. All this hype about safety is just that (HYPE) We should be under no illusion that if crashed at 70mph with 1 ton or even half a ton of water in the back then its safe to say we will definatley be meeting our maker. I only ever fill the tank to half of that capacity except when doing some of the larger commercial work, but still think it's very risky.

If i had lots of money I would love to crash test my van at 70mph with a full tank to see the outcome. I'm guessing the tank would catapult or rupture through the bulk head and out the front windscreen taking the crash test dummy with it.

My van is the only vehicle i have so when im not window cleaning I decant the leftover water from the days work back into another IBC I have in the garage, it only takes five minutes with a hippo pump.

Much safer and saves money on fuel.

DaveG

  • Posts: 6345
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2008, 09:26:30 pm »
I better get some stronger bungees then ;)
You can't polish a turd

elite mike

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2008, 09:31:41 pm »
I better get some stronger bungees then ;)

lol ;D ;D ;D

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2008, 09:33:34 pm »
I've got mixed feelings about all this 'safety'

Safety is indeed important. But is an Ionics actually 'safe' ?

Suppose seat belts were 'safe' upto 30mph but not tested beyond that speed. Would they really be 'safe' ?

Ionics have indeed made steps in the right direction, but the forces involved with stopping a ton of water (or a tonne of anything!) are huge!

OK, so Ionics are tested to a level....is that a level that would be recognised by the government? Obviously not.

There is an argument that you are lulling purchasers into a false sense of security by testing to a very low standard (30mph being one of the lowest speed restrictions in the UK) and there is a very real possibility that those same vehicles will venture onto 40mph or 60mph or even 70mph road/motorways.....there is nothing on the Ionics website that suggests you SHOULD NOT travel on roads above 30 mph?

So, I would suggest that Ionics limit their vehicles to 30mph (as in the case of heavy goods vehicles which are restricted to 56mph) or point out to customers that their systems are ONLY tested to meet a crash at 30mph.

In either case, this is not a government standard and is merely a 'selling tactic' by a company.

I would welcome a clear guidline from the government on this issue.

If my vehicle is allowed to travel at 70mph then my 'fixed load' should be tested to meet a crash at 70mph....but as we all know, we'd be travelling around in 7.5 tonne trucks to meet this spec.

....whether we owned an Ionics or a DIY sert-up.

 



   

 


But is an Ionics actually 'safe' ? 

Your statement is out of context within what Ionics have done, within it then the answer to your question is yes.

Politicians and the whole government are not the experts on loads of things including this, why do people automatically assume they are.

Would you prefer your local MP to do the actual crash test?  Or an organisation that deals with this everyday?

Of course it is a selling point; you will be paying for peace of mind that’s the value in the clamps.



Ewan,

Your local MP does not test your system.

This is contracted via central government (mandarins) and more so these days through European Union Directives to groups/organistions/ professional bodies
with an interest in the field.
The process is very long and laborious and may take several years to come to fruition.

What Ionics has achieved is laudable. But is it an accepted industry standard? NO.

To stop a tonne of water safely would require us to use 7.5tonne vehicles.

This is not a hypothetical question. This is the basic fundamental law of physics.
I know this for a fact. I will state quite clearly right now, your 'van' will kill you if you hit an object traveling above 30mph whether that be an Ionics system or DIY system....if it has water on board. 

I am NOT a government mandarin or an agent for a 7.5 tonne truck manufacturer.

Our 'vans' will NOT stop a tonne of water killing us.

If (and when) the government issue clear directives on how we should transport our water "safely" I shall be the first to comply with the the new laws/directives.

I embrace change and new legislation. It is a challenge to be conquered, in the process, my life and that of my staff become valued. I hope the government DO set down new regulations for the benefit of me and my staff.


I shall welcome them with open arms.

Jago

  • Posts: 453
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2008, 09:52:07 pm »
Nice Fan fella
hope it all goes well
and I love the sign writing as it is soooooo simple and to the point LOVE IT
Looks well cool
To Do Is To Dare

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2008, 10:18:17 pm »
Hello David Slater, Ionic’s have reached a standard and it is recognised. Maybe not by whom you choose it to be.

You still miss the point that they have been tested up to 30 mph, there no point in discussing above this figure as that is beyond the purpose of what they have achieved.

You come across as being responsible for your employees and yourself, but you seem to use the law on this matter as a get out clause.

I’m not judging you or questioning your character as you say you are not breaking any laws and you have you staff safety as a priority. But Ionic has certainly given those people with staff something to consider now they offer this guarantee with the clamps.

I don’t directly employ, but I do sub contract occasionally, so I don’t have this problem to deal with. If I do employ I think I would prefer the Ionic system purely a decision based on safety.

 :)

Ewan,

You have clearly highlighted the issue.

Ionics have developed a system which is crash tested up to 30mph.

Anyone using an Ionics system (on the grounds of safety) should now limit their vehicles to 30mph as this is the 'tested limit' of their safe load....I wonder how many Ionics users do this?

Indeed, there could be case to be argued that if an Ionics system was involved in a collision above 30mph then Ionics could be held jointly and severally responsible for not limiting the vehicle when it left them to 30mph on the grounds that it was only tested to that speed.....just like Mercedes and BMW limit their super cars to 155mph for the tyres that are available today.


So anything above 30mph their 'safety' is now null and void?...Is this what Ionics were selling?

Ionics HAVE NOT reached an 'industry standard'...otherwise we would all be required to reach it. Ionics have reached a 'benchmark for the industry' That is to say, they have gone beyond what the industry expects. But this is NOT a law or a government directive.....and would be easily challenged through the courts if it was proposed as a standard. On the grounds that the vehicles should be limited to the 'safe load' crash testing - i.e: 30 mph

...which means your vehicle should be limited to 30mph

Somebody, somewhere, will come up with a solution to this this thorny issue....I doubt it will be Ionics.

Have Ionics come up with the perfect answer? No.



......Not yet.

It will involve the use of a much heavier vehicle  ;)

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2008, 10:50:55 pm »
And if that law came into effect, all Ionics vans would have to be limited to 30mph right?

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2008, 10:52:03 pm »
At the end of the day it sells more systems end of story,if you think any different they`ve sold it to you aswell.

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2008, 10:53:56 pm »
David, I may be wrong but I think most of British law is case law, (I will have to check with the Mrs). Put very simply if one of your staff had a fatal accident in your vehicle, death caused by the water tank, you will find this will/could become law during the court case.

All of a sudden Ionic’s will have a big waiting list.

I’m sure Ionic know where they stand within the law regarding there clamps.

 :)

Ask your missus....

If a company sell a product with certain guarantees then it MUST meet that criteria.

If Ionics sell a product on the grounds of safety then it MUST leave them in a "safe" and satisfactory condition.

By allowing the vehicle to leave them able to travel above 30mph (their stated "safe" limit) they will be held jointly and severally responsible for any accident that may ensue.

It is not a defence to state that the operative traveled above 30 mph.

You (as the installer) should have made "ALL REASONABLE EFFORTS" to ensure that the vehicle was incapable of traveling beyond the "safe limits".

By allowing the vehicle to leave you after fitting the system which would gain speeds above 30 mph would leave you open to civil and legal claims for damages if it could be proved that the system was sold on it "safety"


I'm sure there will be some very very small print which gives Ionics a "get of of jail free" card ....but is this why you bought the system or not?


Now theres a legal case yet to be argued  ;)


.....So you either bought the system for its safety (which is worth nothing) or you bought the name.


   

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2008, 11:02:11 pm »
David mate, you sound alright but you actually dont know what you're talking about.  I personally went through all this in great detail with jason at ionics.

Have a look at euro ncap website.  New cars are only crash tested to for front impact to 40mph, but guess what cars go a lot faster than that.  So why is the standard only 40mph?  You'd have to ask them, but I would guess that over that speed is a bit academic as you probably wouldnt survive the crash no matter how well built the car.

Quote
Ionics HAVE NOT reached an 'industry standard'

LOL you should read up before you spout it mate.  The FMVSS-208 is the standard for this type of thing, and ionics have reached it.  They have a certificate from an independant research body to prove it.

That standard does not require vehicles certified to it to be limited to 30mph.

Sorry mate but you sound a little jumped-up, and not in the least bit clued-up.  Why dont you speak to ionics about it, like I have, then you might be in a position to make a judgement.  As it is you simply don't know what you're talking about.
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #63 on: August 11, 2008, 11:05:02 pm »
At the end of the day it sells more systems end of story,if you think any different they`ve sold it to you aswell.
I agree with you on this point, although there systems do look rather nice I have to say

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2008, 11:10:15 pm »
i agree with nat
except i dont think you should all club together
i think ionics shuld fund it ;D
i would want the money in advance so that i can get an identical system up and running
(and a little bit for my trouble of course)
i think about 50 mph would be ok
you would need to take it to an airfield to get it up to 70 anyway ::)
would also be interesting to see how other things like hose reels,poles,batteries etc behave in a crash
there is also no bulkhead in mine just a drivers gaurd
that could be interesting ;)

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2008, 11:21:38 pm »
David mate, you sound alright but you actually dont know what you're talking about.  I personally went through all this in great detail with jason at ionics.

Have a look at euro ncap website.  New cars are only crash tested to for front impact to 40mph, but guess what cars go a lot faster than that.  So why is the standard only 40mph?  You'd have to ask them, but I would guess that over that speed is a bit academic as you probably wouldnt survive the crash no matter how well built the car.

Quote
Ionics HAVE NOT reached an 'industry standard'

LOL you should read up before you spout it mate.  The FMVSS-208 is the standard for this type of thing, and ionics have reached it.  They have a certificate from an independant research body to prove it.

That standard does not require vehicles certified to it to be limited to 30mph.

Sorry mate but you sound a little jumped-up, and not in the least bit clued-up.  Why dont you speak to ionics about it, like I have, then you might be in a position to make a judgement.  As it is you simply don't know what you're talking about.

40 mph?

So the 30 mph Ionics claim is wrong?

So what we have then is a system that is tested to what?? 30 mph or 40mph?

Not at all jumped up. I just dont follow exactly what Ionics are selling on this point. They make good systems granted. But a little bit expensive in my book.

Safety? to what speed? to what tolerance?

So you do conceed that the Ionics system is indeed UNSAFE at speeds above 30/40mph?

We're not talking about the vehicle impact though are we? We're talking about "SAFETY" within the vehicle.....so are you suggesting the seatbelts are tested to 40mph? One tonne of weight moving around in the back has very little to do with the tolerances of the vehicle.....unless you are suggesting they are, in which casse the anchor points provided by the vehicle manufacturer are more than adequte as they have also met the Ncap test?

The anchors on an Ionics system are not integral to the vehicle and are not being sold as such. They are being sold as "safety" restraints/harnesses.

I shall wait with baited breath for the first fatal collision and see what defence is put forward by Ionics.....somehow I doubt it will be their "safety system" but expect a get out of jail fee card to be played through their small print  ;)


TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2008, 11:29:10 pm »
mate, no offense, but you seriously dont have a clue.

You dont understand this at all.  My advice is, dont bother arguing with me, because i don't care, but go away and find out exactly what testing ionics did, what the standard was and what it means in practicality.

Also, why form such a strong opinon about it when you don't understand it?

Quote
They make good systems granted. But a little bit expensive in my book.

That has nothing to with safety, but the fact that you felt the need to say it tells a lot about your reason for being opinionated about something you dont understand
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2008, 11:32:56 pm »
mate, no offense, but you seriously dont have a clue.

You dont understand this at all.  My advice is, dont bother arguing with me, because i don't care, but go away and find out exactly what testing ionics did, what the standard was and what it means in practicality.

Also, why form such a strong opinon about it when you don't understand it?

Quote
They make good systems granted. But a little bit expensive in my book.

That has nothing to with safety, but the fact that you felt the need to say it tells a lot about your reason for being opinionated about something you dont understand

Tennet,

Please feel free to correct me -

Ionics sell a system which is tested SAFE to 30 or 40 mph

Beyond that speed the system is.......?

The vehicle the system is fitted to, is able to travel at speeds of......?


 ;)

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2008, 11:54:40 pm »
Quote
Tennet,

Please feel free to correct me -

Ionics sell a system which is tested SAFE to 30 or 40 mph

Beyond that speed the system is.......?

The vehicle the system is fitted to, is able to travel at speeds of......?

LOL wrong my friend.  There's no such thing as "tested SAFE" to any speed.

As I understand it, they sell a system that complies with the FMVSS-208 standard.  Thats not opinion, that is a fact, it complies with that standard.
To comply with that you need to do prove with testing to 30mph

Even then, I would doubt if ionics or even any car manufacturer would say "This is safe to 30mph..." or whatever.  Its a crash after all, by definition, crashes are not safe and are unpredictable.

As I said, why don't you find out what they are actually saying before you disagree with it.
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2008, 12:31:21 am »
Quote
Tennet,

Please feel free to correct me -

Ionics sell a system which is tested SAFE to 30 or 40 mph

Beyond that speed the system is.......?

The vehicle the system is fitted to, is able to travel at speeds of......?

LOL wrong my friend.  There's no such thing as "tested SAFE" to any speed.

As I understand it, they sell a system that complies with the FMVSS-208 standard.  Thats not opinion, that is a fact, it complies with that standard.
To comply with that you need to do prove with testing to 30mph

Even then, I would doubt if ionics or even any car manufacturer would say "This is safe to 30mph..." or whatever.  Its a crash after all, by definition, crashes are not safe and are unpredictable.

As I said, why don't you find out what they are actually saying before you disagree with it.

So pretty much as said - tested safe to 30mph.

I  wonder whether my seatbelt (which is also a restraining device) is tested beyond 30 mph...hmmm

You bought an Ionics and good for you.

I just hope you didnt buy it save your life in an accident.......above 30mph of course  ;D


Just a footnote - my car is capable of speeds up to 155mph did you know its against the law for a fitter to fit tyres to my car that are rated below that speed?



hhhmmmm......food for thought.

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2008, 12:50:56 am »
thats what I love about CIU.  You can prove beyond reasonable doubt that white is white, but some numpty will always say its black!
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2008, 06:40:04 am »
Good info tenent, it bugs me too when you give info unadorned, and someone says what I think is..... or in my opinion

I think we set sucked into these arguments and i'm no better than anybody else for talking about what i don't understand

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2008, 06:47:50 am »
thats what I love about CIU.  You can prove beyond reasonable doubt that white is white, but some numpty will always say its black!

True

I think we set sucked into these arguments and i'm no better than anybody else for talking about what i don't understand

Yes (me too) and yes (me too)

 ;D

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2008, 07:03:17 am »
This started with a pic of Olivers new system, and he was very proud. People teased a few details out of him like price and then ridiculed the system as overpriced and unsafe. The debate then moved to knocking Ionics.

This sort of reaction is why so few people share.


Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2008, 08:03:00 am »
and then ridiculed the system


Happened to me on here as well.

Thats why I dont bother offering anything constructive anymore. Used to and then someone decides its time to have a pop just because theryre bored.

Why bother?

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2008, 08:22:18 am »
I think people have got a point, sure the standard is 30mph which you get the certificate for.

But how many of us travel a fair bit faster then that. Yea usually you brake before an accident, but only if you see it coming. You'd still be safer in an Ionics fitted van then anything else, naturally, but it sure would be interesting to see what happens at 40mph, or 50mph. Because that is realistic, 30mph isn't really in my opinion.

P®oPole™

  • Posts: 985
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2008, 08:48:25 am »
Far too many 'opinions' and 'unjustified conclusions' from people who have very little knowledge of what there talking about.
All systems to a degree do the same thing. However a smart man wouldn't secure a tank with 5 or even 10 ton straps and simply just keep his fingers crossed.

All crash testing is done at 30MPH as standard the FMVSS-208 bolts capable of a restraining an astronomical 640 tonnes of kinetic energy are the best purpose made means of securing a tank available and if the test existed I have no doubt that they would exceed 30mph.

Pro

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2008, 09:36:46 am »
So lets get Thorpe's rig AND an Ionics one,.. drive both of them at a wall at 50mph.

In the interest of fairness I think Ionics should supply one at the same price Thorpe is asking,...

;)

twt

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2008, 11:38:16 am »
just a note
 i once went round a round about a bit fast suddenly the van jolted on the way round and it felt like one of the wheels had fallen off, upon inspection it turned out a 30 litre  barrel had fallen over and slid to the other side of the van. It made me realise how important it is to secure loads my van. In a crash a tank of water will have an unbelievable affect on the vans handling and the impact.

sair

  • Posts: 682
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2008, 12:48:12 pm »
In my humble opinion, not that i know anything about fitting systems!

the outreach frame and system is suitable for the job and the brackets would hold out in accident.

i have seen a few that have been in accidents in last 5 years after installation and the brackets do not rip out, i would sooner the brackets than a ratchet strap to the so called ratchet points. 

outreach do have some form of testing done on there brackets via an outside company.

Essentially Pure Ltd

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2008, 01:26:32 pm »
Quote
In my humble opinion, not that i know anything about fitting systems!

the outreach frame and system is suitable for the job and the brackets would hold out in accident.

i have seen a few that have been in accidents in last 5 years after installation and the brackets do not rip out, i would sooner the brackets than a ratchet strap to the so called ratchet points.

outreach do have some form of testing done on there brackets via an outside company.

This from the man who sells systems as to people as DIY fit.  LOL

No offense mate but I wont take anything you say about safety seriously.

In my "humble opinion" you are highly irresponsible and not to mention hypocritical.  I would never sell a car to someone if I knew the brakes were faulty, because if they hurt themselves I know the blood would be on mt hands.  You are doing exactly the same in my opinion.  How can you ever claim to hold life as valuable.

Just my opinion though.

(Just ignore my opinion when your banking your money for these DIY install systems you are selling.)
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2008, 10:11:21 pm »
So lets get Thorpe's rig AND an Ionics one,.. drive both of them at a wall at 50mph.

In the interest of fairness I think Ionics should supply one at the same price Thorpe is asking,...

;)
once again i am up for it  ;D
suits me fine anyone from ionics want to take up the offer

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2008, 09:18:08 pm »
Ooooh, a bit of heated debate!

OK, seeing as I seemed to have sparked this off, let me try and clarify my points -

1. Ionics have done a GOOD THING by bringing the safety aspect of carrying a system around in a vehicle. I commend them for this.

2. I have issues that some people may think their system is now 'safe' no matter what speeds they travel at.

3. The Ionics idea is good. It is NOT perfect. It will be superceded with a better design.

4. The vehicle will indeed have passed it own Ncap tests...but without a tonne of water being fastened to its chassis. How will this affect the vehicles performance in a crash?....above speeds of 30/40mph?

5. I think its true to say (and the board messages highlight this!) most vans are running at close to their maximum payloads.

Fastening the system to the chassis via straps or bolts is NOT ideal.
OK, so we've fastened the system to the chassis and we've surrounded it in a lovely metal cage to protect it.....what we have actually done is created an object that if (or when) it leaves those bolts through failure (of van or bolt) remains intact and comes hurtling towards the driver/passenger.

Thinking along the lines of car manufacturers, they realised that keeping everything intact isnt really the best solution. Things should be made to break, fracture, come off and crumple.

Your bumpers will now 'swoop up' a pedestrian. Your engine bolts are designed to 'fail' and let the engine travel downwards to the ground. Your front and rear ends will now 'crumple' absorbing impact.....I think you see what I'm getting at!

Most guys are running at (or very close) to their vehicles payload. But this weight isnt evenly distributed throughout the payload area. It is concentrated into one spot. And that system usually has some form of metal cage to protect it.   

A perfect system will eventually incorporate some form of 'safety pod' for the driver and passenger......probably some form of roll cage type affair.

The system itself will be designed to break/shatter on impact - thus dissipating its energy....I would rather get wet than get hit with a tonne of water/steel cage.

To include extra safety will require the use of a heavier vehicle (to cope with the additional 'safety cell' (or roll cage type affair) or downsizing the tank.

We like the idea of safety but dont want to go that far....so we choose a handful of bolts/welds/straps. 

If we want a 'safe' system its available.... At a cost and at a weight penalty.

As I said, Ionics system is laudable....but NOT the answer.

Again, let me emphasise, this applies just as much to a DIY system or Thorpe's or Ionics.

.....but only Ionics have made claims about 'safety'

 

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2008, 10:04:16 pm »
So it might be better to get soaked than squished. Thats not hard to do, put a fail into the lid section of the water box and on impact the lid would fail and the water would shoot out the top. In normal use this weak point of the structure wouldn't matter.

There you are problem solved.

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2008, 10:10:08 pm »
So it might be better to get soaked than squished. Thats not hard to do, put a fail into the lid section of the water box and on impact the lid would fail and the water would shoot out the top. In normal use this weak point of the structure wouldn't matter.

There you are problem solved.

What about drowning though? (  :D )

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2008, 10:11:45 pm »
so crash mine and see what happens ;D
may be a tank with weak spots
held in place with straps
or some device like an airbag that ruptures tank on impact
or restraining straps that work on the inertia reel system or summat like it
to brake the movement of the tank
dispersing the energy

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2008, 10:16:24 pm »
so if  i crash its INSULT AND INJURY

and i thought trad woul be the finish of me
now  i am wfp i honestly dont know what will kll me

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2008, 10:31:02 pm »
dont sweat it tony
i think its a safe bet that more window cleaners die falling off ladders than get crushed to death by their tanks in a crash :)
nice set up btw

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2008, 10:32:29 pm »
The more i think of it the more certain I am. The thatcham test is irrelevant and insurers and legislatures will see this too. What matters is that on impact the lid comes off.

Come on physicists tell me i'm wrong.

Ionics have spent a fortune on this dead end technology. What a waste of money. They should have come and asked us. What boneheads.

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2008, 10:36:43 pm »
or several weakened "lids"
one on each side of tank
wired to an airbag charge even ;D
crash bang splash :)
and straps instead of cage

twt

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #90 on: August 14, 2008, 10:49:49 pm »
i thought for a while that is would be a good idea to have a system that splits the tank in the event of a major impact as i would much rather be hit by a ton of water than a one ton plastic box.

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2008, 10:55:46 pm »
The safest tank you`ll get www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk 1 on the website has a transporter with a custom flat tank,if it had full bulkhead you couldn`t get any safer.

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2008, 11:42:47 pm »
Ooooh, a bit of heated debate!

OK, seeing as I seemed to have sparked this off, let me try and clarify my points -

1. Ionics have done a GOOD THING by bringing the safety aspect of carrying a system around in a vehicle. I commend them for this.

2. I have issues that some people may think their system is now 'safe' no matter what speeds they travel at.

3. The Ionics idea is good. It is NOT perfect. It will be superceded with a better design.

4. The vehicle will indeed have passed it own Ncap tests...but without a tonne of water being fastened to its chassis. How will this affect the vehicles performance in a crash?....above speeds of 30/40mph?

5. I think its true to say (and the board messages highlight this!) most vans are running at close to their maximum payloads.

Fastening the system to the chassis via straps or bolts is NOT ideal.
OK, so we've fastened the system to the chassis and we've surrounded it in a lovely metal cage to protect it.....what we have actually done is created an object that if (or when) it leaves those bolts through failure (of van or bolt) remains intact and comes hurtling towards the driver/passenger.

Thinking along the lines of car manufacturers, they realised that keeping everything intact isnt really the best solution. Things should be made to break, fracture, come off and crumple.

Your bumpers will now 'swoop up' a pedestrian. Your engine bolts are designed to 'fail' and let the engine travel downwards to the ground. Your front and rear ends will now 'crumple' absorbing impact.....I think you see what I'm getting at!

Most guys are running at (or very close) to their vehicles payload. But this weight isnt evenly distributed throughout the payload area. It is concentrated into one spot. And that system usually has some form of metal cage to protect it.   

A perfect system will eventually incorporate some form of 'safety pod' for the driver and passenger......probably some form of roll cage type affair.

The system itself will be designed to break/shatter on impact - thus dissipating its energy....I would rather get wet than get hit with a tonne of water/steel cage.

To include extra safety will require the use of a heavier vehicle (to cope with the additional 'safety cell' (or roll cage type affair) or downsizing the tank.

We like the idea of safety but dont want to go that far....so we choose a handful of bolts/welds/straps. 

If we want a 'safe' system its available.... At a cost and at a weight penalty.

As I said, Ionics system is laudable....but NOT the answer.

Again, let me emphasise, this applies just as much to a DIY system or Thorpe's or Ionics.

.....but only Ionics have made claims about 'safety'

 



I would have thought most people have a valid MOT and there vehicles are fit for the road no matter what speed they do. If you mean they crashed at any speed carrying a full load most would have the sense to know they would be in trouble with or without a full load.

Ionic’s system doesn’t claim it to be perfect in any scenario, only you have mentioned the word perfect in a negative context.

You raise the issue of speed above 30mph to 40mph what next 50mph to 60mph? And then after that, What about a head on collision with two vehicles doing 70mph.

Ionic’s system does work, you have been proven wrong in your comments even thought they are written after Ionic’s have already done the test!



Oh for Gawds sake Ewan!!

Please keep up.

Ionics DOES work (up to 30mph). I do not dispute this fact.

Is it the answer long term? NO They have done more than most and should be awarded credit for that.

There are better methods, materials and ideas yet to be discovered.

Using your analogy, we should have stopped the technological developments at squeegies or possibly a rag and a bucket of water!!!

Other posters have mentioned some brilliant ideas (tops break off, tanks dispel water on impact) and so on...

Everything is evolving (and more so in window cleaning!) look at the WAHR regs or H&S statements or Risk Assessments???......indeed, look at the introduction of WFP????

Are you suggesting we should rest on our laurels and let a manufacturer (and salesman) dictate to us what is 'safe' or 'unsafe' for us to use?

I would rather listen to my peers for an informative viewpoint.

Somebody will come up with the answer to this thorny point of safety.....but I doubt it will be Ionics (and that is not a slant on Ionics).




I feel it will evolve from sites and discussions just like this.

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2008, 11:45:06 pm »
I like the idea of a tank that is designed to split on impact,... it seems quite a simple idea,..

Lets start pestering some manufacturers to design them!

alanwilson

  • Posts: 1885
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2008, 11:56:50 pm »
been done a long time ago

the tanks allways rupture in a plance crash!!

I know!!
I've never been to bed with an ugly bird but I've woken up with loads!

David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2008, 11:57:14 pm »
I like the idea of a tank that is designed to split on impact,... it seems quite a simple idea,..

Lets start pestering some manufacturers to design them!

Nat,

I'm glad you (and some other posters - DWC included) can see what I'm saying.

I'm not knocking Ionics for the fun of it. I dont "Hate" Ionics.

I have doubts about the effectiveness (long term) of their "safety" devices. I feel there are indeed better solutions.

....I put forward the question and within 24 hours you guys are coming up with possible solutions.


Now thats what I call disseminating knowledge!

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2008, 08:39:57 am »
I don't doubt that getting hit with half a tonne of water at 70 mph could do damage,... but a lot less damage than a solid tank and cage. Perhaps cages could be designed that would have that effect on the standard tanks we already use?
Also, along the idea of crumple zones in cars,... could tank fixings be designed to move (not too much) in the event of an impact, lessening the forces involved?

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2008, 09:06:57 am »
Good amount of interesting information in these posts. (Tony Oliver we do like you van and kit, by the way and I like the song!).

I have always felt that a flat tank that covers most of the floor area of a van is going to be inherently safer than an upright lump in the middle.

Such as below:


I am anticipating a new vehicle for my work, come the new year. My intention will be to have a tank that is about 800 litres. Dimensions wise it will be about W 1100mm x L 1800mm x H 400mm. This will balance the vehicle well and have a very low centre of gravity-all things that will make the vehicle safer before and during a crash. The trouble with this layout for a retailer of systems is that it is then very difficult to package it as an 'off the shelf' system to sell as you then need either a home based processing unit (what I have) or a separate unit that will need fixing separately into the vehicle.

My personal choice in tanks has always been custom made tanks with box section baffling as this also increase vehicle stability and safety. I have often considered the possibility of rupturing tanks as this is a very efficient way of dissipating energy quickly. They use large water tanks on the sharp point of highway slip roads on the continent and in the US, to absorb the energy of cars safely. To work reliably you would need a system that would 'rip' panels off to allow the water out in a controlled manner. This would quite complex due to the baffled nature of the tanks I use. (my brain is now working in this one, I might try some ideas out in my new vehicle.) A column of 1000 litres of water at 50mph could be just as damaging to a person as a solid tank.

We currently do not sell fitted systems and we will not do so until we are completely happy with the safety issues surrounding them. We have initiated contact with Thatcham to discuss crash test programs, but there is a lot more to this issue than strong clamps. I have come up with a new design of fixing that does away with some of the inherent problems of most clamps, but bearing in mind many of the above issues this is not really dealing with the whole issue.

There are other solutions to these issues. We could switch to the US way of carrying out work. They tend to use on the job systems that process as you work rather than having a storage tank. This could be combined with a  small 100 litre storage tank to act as a buffer for domestic work.

Just my thoughts. Anyone got any ideas for my new tank construction then please feel free to email me on alex@agardiner.co.uk .


Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #98 on: August 15, 2008, 10:21:00 am »
I think that from a safety point of view they would work very well. One problem they do have is storing longer poles, also they often do not have that large a load area or payload compared to some of the vans.

steve bell

  • Posts: 47
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #99 on: August 15, 2008, 01:17:44 pm »
Hi guys, I'm new here and have read through all of the above with great interest
I will admit to having a pole fed system, however just using 25litre drums and a trolley system in the back of my Discovery. (plenty of issues there I'm sure, fuel,etc) I cannot afford to get rid of the thing so I'm pressing it into work is the bottom line.
I will be looking at vans and the very problem discussed above in the future. From a background as a HGV mechanic I find it all very interesting why the tanks cannot be mounted underneath a vehicle, thus keeping it away from the ocupants. Admit it would throw up other issues with vehicle servicing, chance of road debris puncturing the vessel..... And of course today with vehicle manufacturers making low load bed vans space isn't available in a van. So what about a pick up? Traditional stuff would fit into a small top box on the bed. Perhaps a purpose built body for a pick up where the vessel would locate to the body mounts where the flat bed should sit?

I dunno if I'm helping here. And I am a newbie, so please be gentle with me.

P.S. I do like the van from the original poster.  :)

Steve Bell,
SB Cleaning.

(also; HIP & EPC provider but with this climate.....)

Jimmy1

  • Posts: 289
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2008, 04:17:37 pm »
Love the van and name Tony. System looks good to me, bet your pleased as punch!

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2008, 08:42:35 pm »
Very interesting, and unexpected from steve bell and Alex. Typical that newbie with a fresh pair of eyes should see things that we can't. (what about them orange things that eon run about in that have shutters up the side but the cab is seperate to the back?)

Anyway leaving safety to one side what about the perfect set up. I agree that a flat tank that covers most of the floor area is the best solution.Water produced off the van, and reels(electric) mounted over the tank.


David Slater

Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #102 on: August 16, 2008, 07:09:01 pm »
Very interesting, and unexpected from steve bell and Alex. Typical that newbie with a fresh pair of eyes should see things that we can't. (what about them orange things that eon run about in that have shutters up the side but the cab is seperate to the back?)

Anyway leaving safety to one side what about the perfect set up. I agree that a flat tank that covers most of the floor area is the best solution.Water produced off the van, and reels(electric) mounted over the tank.


To my mind, a low level tank (as Alex suggests) must be inherently more stable. It is lower and therefor the centre of gravity is as low as humanly possible.
This MUST reduce 'sway' and improve vehicle handling.

What else would I include?...

A low level roll cage (to stop the tank sliding under the seats and removing my feet!)....A low level roll cage with sharp 'V' points facing the tank to both stop its forward trajectory and also rupture the tank.

....what would you attach it to?   I dont know!

Like I say, I havent got a problem getting wet...I do have a massive problem losing my life (or feet/legs/arms/head!) to a system that is meant to be "safer" than climbing ladders.

If all we have done is replace one danger (ladders) for another, then we havent made one single step forward.

You guys know so much more about all of this than me.

You guys WILL come up with the ideal solution. I know this for a fact. You only have to read these boards to see the knowledge and experience floating around.

 

 

tonyoliver

  • Posts: 588
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2008, 10:10:07 pm »
alanwilson just how many plane crashes you been in ?

been done a long time ago

the tanks allways rupture in a plance crash!!

I know!!

steve bell

  • Posts: 47
Re: like my van like mykit
« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2008, 11:27:38 pm »
Thanks discount, More support for the newbie.
I will admit to being nervous about forums and the potential to get shouted at for stating the obvious.
Was thinking more about the pick up body idea last night. I'm sure with a little thought you could easily build an almost fire engine style body onto any pick up with the tanks low and baffled. Even fit a large RO system which would fill the tanks overnight and be ready for work next morning. Low backed for ladder access. Perhaps there are fire tenders out there which could be converted cheap. Although pump would be engine driven and a bit too higher pressure. For sure there wouldn't be any muck on the glass after a blast with that!! LOL. Lucky if any glass left.

So, I have a welder and a large garage. Anyone want me to build them one? Just supply the pick up.

You guessed it..... Business is slow.
Steve Bell,
SB Cleaning.

(also; HIP & EPC provider but with this climate.....)