[tonyoliver]

how do we compete with  nationals like ocs inital ect.

 how can we take on large companys and get bigger better paying jobs.

it is obvious to me that almost all of us here are small buissnes and as such get dwarfed by the big boys.

we can provide better work at a better price ect but we dont even get a sniff at  The contracts on offer.
some of do get jobs through these people but by the time it gets to us we see 10% of the money for 95% of the risk both physical and financial  I AM ASKING THE BEST MINDS IN THE INDUSTRY how do we get a look in? YOUR IMPUT  PLEASE

[NWH]

Charge peanuts and drive half way around your county for nothing,and that`s a fact.

[AJ]

BIG FAT  brown envelopes marked 'facilities manager'

[seandyer2003]

ocs and similar national companies make there money on the quantity of work so they are not charging huge amounts necessarily, and they have the staff directly on hand on minimum wage, its hard to compete! I dont think they have all the work though, still alot of work about.

[NWH]

Forget it you can make more doing terrace houses lol.

[seandyer2003]

this is it, if you price your work up properly it doesnt matter if its wembley stadium or a bungalow, you will earn £20-30 an hour, and the beauty with houses, you dont have to do method statements and waste time trying to win tenders etc

[NWH]

Exactly mate,the bigger the comm jobs your going for the more WC`s will be bidding.Just because you have massive comm jobs it dosen`t mean your earning the money it just looks good on the website,i`m not saying it`s the case with all comm jobs but these days it`s cut throat.I know a bloke that used to do colleges and schools etc in inner london,he used to go in with the pole 3 handed and get 3k for a couple of days work,those days are gone for the short term.Big firms such as OCS etc do some of these jobs for cost and in some cases at a loss just for the turnover,good on the CV not always on the bank statement.

[ftp]

Slightly at a tangent it is strange how big companies will use cleaning contractors and security staff from the major companies when it would be cheaper to use someone local or their own trained staff. My local Supermarket had to get a security guard to drive in fom Kent to Wiltshire to cover the nightshift - daft or what? They pay for cleaners to come in from Wales who are on a higher rate than their own and they pay a premium to the contractors for them.

[seandyer2003]

because the mangers who push the buttons so to speak arent affected by the stupid decisions ie there wage is the same, if it was your company you obviously wouldnt waste money like that but these big companies do. I used to work in the contract cleaning industry and its stupid how little the big companies charge but they do it to put me and you out of work and make money on having LOADS of work, but the quality isnt necessarily any good

[NWH]

The quality is rubbish and it`s only put up with because of price,like everything else in this country it`s ridiculous.If you really looked into what there getting per man per hour you wouldn`t want the job.

[peter holley]

Forget it you can make more doing terrace houses lol.

i havnt read all the posts , but thats what i was gonna say

[peter holley]

i dont do commercial ANYMORE....a window is a window surrounded by bricks ....
£10 cash £7 cash £25 cash £12 cash £50 cash...yes please and thankyou!!

there is amarket other than commercial, and its less competitive :

[P®oPole™]

One word 'volume' 


Pro

[Londoner]

I don't know about the commercial account work in window cleaning but most big companies like to deal with other big companies. They see the small outfit as being risky.
 

[m.b.s.]

i know one of the companys mentioned above make there mony on other things they do for a perticular job
say they had a cleaning contract for a com job and the same con job for the w/c
they make their money on the cleaning side of things not the window cleaning
it s a bonus for them to do there window cleaning as well
this is why you cannot compeat with these companys because if they hold one contract for the job they usually hold them all if they offer the services required 

[Oakley Windows]

So, in that case, what happens to enable small setups to go out and price up certain establishments at rate of something like £350-£400 a day and get the work (Im thinking of schools in particular and NOT of any recent posts on here regarding them)?

[Pj]

Thankfully not every client likes dealing with the big maintenance contract companies.
The upside is that they will always be able to undercut, the downside is the client will never know who is going to turn up to do the job, and many who do couldn't care much about the quality because they're on a fairly low wage.
Not many years ago I had a retail w/c job paid me £112 a week.  Maintenance co. took over everything and then offered me the job at £23 a week!  No way

[bluez]

To compete with the large national co's It is necessary to operate like them imo.

The reason they have the larger contracts is that they employ skilled salespeople to sell to professional buyers and at tendering for this type of work. When the smaller guys try to do this they generally get frustrated with the time scales involved.

You can be chasing a national company for a couple of years before you get the nod and which of us smaller guys can devote that type of concentrate effort to sales and development.

On a positive side when you do get one on board the format for getting the others is basically the same.

The only other way I can think of is to form an agency of medium sized window cleaning co's that can bid and tender for jobs on a national basis, but there would be lots of issues in this.



 

[matt]

BIG FAT  brown envelopes marked 'facilities manager'

thats the 1

i belive they also like " client hosptiality " , free holidays to you and me

[Clive McDonald]

BIG FAT  brown envelopes marked 'facilities manager'

thats the 1

i belive they also like " client hosptiality " , free holidays to you and me

Agree. It's not about price, or doing a good job. The only work you are likely to get is owner operated. Any directors, facilities etc expect wineing and dining minimum. If you were a director of national company would you allocate the work or let regional managers call the shots?

[MNWC]

Stick to domestic mate it has loads more benefits

the odd commercial is ok i have a ratio of about 90% Domestic to 10% Commercial

Suits me !

[cswc]

if domestic is really that good then why when its raining is there alot of people on the forums like this,

commercial may be tightly priced but have you ever cleaned windows on say a bungalow in the rain or when its snowing

rgds,

[p1w1]

yep specially when theres nobody home..

[cswc]

hows that shooting comming along ........



is it jessie james and the leave-alot-kid
 

[p1w1]

hows that shooting comming along ........



is it jessie james and the leave-alot-kid
 

so tell me then whats wrong cleaning in that type of weather...its more come rain or shine i'm always on time...

[Kevin R]

I cant believe some of the posts I have just read - not all the bigger contracts are offered to the likes of OCS etc. Some facilities managers hunt for local firms that can do the job at the right price, safely and efficiently. Advertise, get a pro image and a good website (not a freebie load of rubbish either, invest for success - you need good SEO too) and yes your in with a chance too. Speculate to accumulate its that simple. Advertise, advertise and advertise but in the right places. Where would you look for a WC firm if you were sat in an office? Dont listen to the idiots use you loaf!!!  Keep spending your dosh on rubbish estate cars, trolleys and 175 ltr systems and never advertising and you will get nowhere but where you are right now!!! Ok if you happy with that but why not let others who want to discuss how its done do so with out putting your negitive comments in. YES YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!!

 If you think you can make more money on domestic you are sadly deluded. Ok you do need to spend time and money, traveling and quoting, writing RA /MS making follow up and courtesy calls etc etc, but you charge for it!

Ok I agree its all about volume, most of the quotes I see on here for £1 a window no matter how many windows there are, are simply ridiculous and posted usually by people that just dont have a clue. How did you learn to quote for domestic - trial and error. Commercial is the same - a follow up call if you don't get the contract will help you understand why you didn't get it (and remember you can't win them all) Most facilities managers I have come across are happy to discuss the quote with you.

You dont need to be a massive firm either, you just need to be realistic and co-operate with others.

For those that want to gain quality commercial work - read between the lines use the positives and ignore the idiots!!!

[bluez]

There are many big window cleaning co's and many more medium sized ones all of which started out as small operations at one point or another.

There is no comparison between the guy who wants to work 40 hrs a week and not have a boss and earn a decent wage and the guy who is building a
business looking to exploit every oportunity that he sees.

What is the difference between the two, imo it is only ambition, effort and ability to think strategically.

[NWH]

If you don’t have staff you cannot compete on price also you may not have the capabilities of the larger companies and the time (frame) to do the work. Then you won’t have time to do a better job!

Because you are a window cleaner, doesn’t mean you can clean any job/contract. Bigger business bigger contracts, so if you want them start building your business up.

They are obviously worth while or the companies that clean them won’t do it. Regardless of what others say it just means they either don’t fully understand the business at this level.

By building your business up to a level big enough to do the contracts, at the same time keep hold of running cost and margins you should be able to win a few, eventually.

I would take jobs on if i had 3-4 idiots that were on minimum wage doing £400 jobs for £150,on some contacts that`s where it`s at trust me i`ve seen some quotes and the jobs are well worth sometimes double the amount firms are doing them for.They take them on because they have blokes doing 3-4 of these a day when in reality doing them properly for the right price should only be doing say 2,let these companys get these firms in i certainly couldn`t compete and wouldn`t want to either,these jobs really are just getting a quick and i mean quick squirt and a brush if there lucky.It has nothing to do with business sense more like slave labour with staff on a pittance,that`s how these jobs are acheived by going in at ridiculously low prices.

[windowwashers]

Customers get what they pay for. Its there own fault if they are good at driving down the prices I don’t blame the window cleaners for doing a quick job.

Just give them what they are willing to pay for. Everybody here goes on about doing a perfect job and there standards are high. That comes at a price and if the customers don’t pay for that don’t do it and just give them what they pay for and no more.

 

if they do not want to pay for a good job in window cleaning, I will not do it. I do not want to be known as a crap window cleaner just so I get a job. And Ewan that shocks me coming from you as you clearly are not stupid when it comes to the business side of things.

[NWH]

What i`m saying is that because the prices going in are so low it`s only allowing you to do a bad job,how can you do a 4 hour job in 1.5 hours.I tell you how by missing half the windows and paying your workers peanuts,some jobs i`ve looked at after speaking to the burser or whoever may be in charge i`ve just laughed and walked away,i`d rather earn double on domestic for half the hours thanks.

[Oakley Windows]

Ok I agree its all about volume, most of the quotes I see on here for £1 a window no matter how many windows there are, are simply ridiculous and posted usually by people that just dont have a clue.

Can you explain what you mean please?

[NWH]

Well I suppose that’s the thing you have to learn, no matter how bad you think they are doing the job it must be acceptable to the customers.

You’re not going to be successful at all if you take four hours to do the work and only get paid for one and half hours.

Like I said only give them what they pay for.

It gets to the point with some customers that they`ve had so many bad WC`s that rubbish work is accepted as the norm and just getting a quick flit over goes un noticed,it`s only when someone in charge with an sense comes in these WC`s shake in there boots in the knowing that there about to lose the job.I`m talking from experience here and am not directing my comments at you,but by carrying out work like this on a daily basis i would be worried about losing work.Losing work through quality is never a thing i have to worry about.

[Mike_G]

As far as I know neither Initial or OCS pay by the hour the both pay piece work. Ocs is about 57% of price to them 43% to the window cleaners. Some of the jobs are priced ok but most are not great, that said if you were to get the whole 100% the vast majority of work would be very good indeed. I know a few guys who work for initial and the all earn well over £500 a week which is not bad when you get paid holidays and no overheads of their own although they travel hundreds of miles a day to get to some of the work and have to start at 3am. As for the jobs they get, the facilities managers of the said establishments normally have to justify thier own position and therefore try to cut cost to a minimum (brown nosing to their boss) and will generally go for the lowest quote assuming all standards of work will be similar, which quite often will not be great but there is always someone out there that will do a job for peanuts and they know it.

[NWH]

Customers get what they pay for. Its there own fault if they are good at driving down the prices I don’t blame the window cleaners for doing a quick job.

Just give them what they are willing to pay for. Everybody here goes on about doing a perfect job and there standards are high. That comes at a price and if the customers don’t pay for that don’t do it and just give them what they pay for and no more.

 

if they do not want to pay for a good job in window cleaning, I will not do it. I do not want to be known as a crap window cleaner just so I get a job. And Ewan that shocks me coming from you as you clearly are not stupid when it comes to the business side of things.

Ian don’t be shocked, people on here have already expressed there views on the quality of work done by larger companies.

Think why that is and who continue to get the (large) contracts.

You will never be able to survive in that area of window cleaning if you maintain your higher standards. Someone else has already said it, its quantity not quality.

That is a different type of business although it is still window cleaning.

 

Your right but my reputation is important to me,it`s my name on all the paperwork and staff tend to forget that.

[windowwashers]

Customers get what they pay for. Its there own fault if they are good at driving down the prices I don’t blame the window cleaners for doing a quick job.

Just give them what they are willing to pay for. Everybody here goes on about doing a perfect job and there standards are high. That comes at a price and if the customers don’t pay for that don’t do it and just give them what they pay for and no more.

 

if they do not want to pay for a good job in window cleaning, I will not do it. I do not want to be known as a crap window cleaner just so I get a job. And Ewan that shocks me coming from you as you clearly are not stupid when it comes to the business side of things.

Ian don’t be shocked, people on here have already expressed there views on the quality of work done by larger companies.

Think why that is and who continue to get the (large) contracts.

You will never be able to survive in that area of window cleaning if you maintain your higher standards. Someone else has already said it, its quantity not quality.

That is a different type of business although it is still window cleaning.

 

Your right but my reputation is important to me,it`s my name on all the paperwork and staff tend to forget that.

My reputation is important to me and as a business to my company name and recommendations from work done, I personally do not chase big contracts for peanuts, I prefer to get quality work at prices i want to work for right or wrong this is what I will continue to do while it is working as has been for quite a few years now. If it stops working I will sit and rethink my plans.

Ian

 

[bluez]

Interesting topic.

Large businesses that have purchasing managers and facilities managers tend to rely on systems to ensure that their contractors deliver the work required. This is usually based on a specification document that details the work that is expected and the standards.

The decision makers tend not to ever see the finished work quality and changes in contractors due to poor standards tend to take a long period to happen as the complaints work there way up the food chain of the organisation to the decision maker. When it does actually reach the decision maker they in most cases will discuss the issues with the service provider, who generally goes all out to impress the client for the next few visits.

I never set out to do a better job than the job I am paid to do.

Ford could make better cars, but they, rightly or wrongly, have decided that this is the section of the market they wish to operate in.
 

[Oakley Windows]

ego alone (reputation).

I think your confused

[NWH]

I think this is a normal problem with individuals or small firms, they think that every job they do has to be quality or there reputation as a window cleaner is tarnished.
Its actually complete nonsense and most of your work will come from marketing not from your extremely wonderful reputation.

You would be better of offering a range of services for your customers, having different prices for these services. Most importantly giving the customer what they want rather than what you think they need. All within the customers budget and still have a very good margin for the work you do for them, all done with honesty integrity and professionalism.

That is business, not having it based on your ego alone (reputation).

 

That`s rubbish,i don`t do cheap sub standard work for anyone regardless of there budget,your doing a bad job and using there budget as an excuse if you ask me.What do you do miss half the windows and then say oh well you got it done cheap didn`t you,in the end they`ll gey fed up and get someone else and i`ll be waiting.

[L.J.Thorpe]

ewan
i just think you talk a load of rubbish
reputation has got me more work than ANY advertising,marketing whatever
when i do a first clean i do it to a v high standard
same with fascia etc
i always tell customers
"if you are happy with our service tell a friend"
works really well
has got me loads of solid regular work
you talk nonsense sometimes
crap window cleaners go out of business
good ones dont

[L.J.Thorpe]

ewan
good luck in your chosen line of work
i wish you lived closer to me

[Oakley Windows]

What was the name of that guy that used to spout nothing but drivel about running a window cleaning business but wasnt a window cleaner?

[alanwilson]

Ian Giles??


just kidding!!

[peter holley]

yes i remember him ...what a pulonker he went by the name of dave

[Oakley Windows]

In a year he's gone from as novice a novice could be

Hello all.

 Left my job to go self employed as a full time Window Cleaner last April.

Need help on, trying to work out should I base my Hourly rate on 24 - 30 hours cleanning only per week?(based in the Midlands). What would be a the lowest rate for me to cover all expenses and make success of building a small business.
(or survive the 1st year).

All comments welcome.  Thanks

to someone who quite obviously knows absolutely everything.

Not bad for someone who didnt even know what hourly rate he ought to try for less than 12 months ago.

[mark dew]

nothing wrong with being a quick learner.

[L.J.Thorpe]

nothing wrong with being a quick learner.

Who said he'd learnt anything?

lol
matt and p holley
i think you mean.......DAVO
whatever happened to him

[peter holley]

thats the one  ???what a doughnut £200 for a  standard conservatory roof etc...

[windowwashers]

I think this is a normal problem with individuals or small firms, they think that every job they do has to be quality or there reputation as a window cleaner is tarnished.
Its actually complete nonsense and most of your work will come from marketing not from your extremely wonderful reputation.

You would be better of offering a range of services for your customers, having different prices for these services. Most importantly giving the customer what they want rather than what you think they need. All within the customers budget and still have a very good margin for the work you do for them, all done with honesty integrity and professionalism.

That is business, not having it based on your ego alone (reputation).

 

it is not ego (reputation) it means a good name over time for doing a good job.

Ewan how long have you been doing this ? a bad job is bad for business in this game you should know this, a bad customer talks always how bad you did. I prefer not to have this..

Your input please ............



Ian

[NWH]

Yeah and hardly ever how good you did it.

[windowwashers]

Yeah and hardly ever how good you did it.

hardly how good you do is far better imo than speaking freely how bad you do a job do you not agree NWH

[L.J.Thorpe]

nwh and ian
spot on
they love to tell others how crap you are
do a good job and cover yoursself
after 3 or 4 cleans the window that took 2 mins on first clean only takes 15 or 20 secs anyway
so why skimp

[L.J.Thorpe]

arrogant aint the word
most small business fold in 2 yrs
all the best mate
i prefer to do a decent job at worst
and a great job at best
has worked for me
and probably all those  repeat guys too

[tonyoliver]

ewan too true mate i am 20 years in and you make more on avarage than me my shame not yours .


you tend to sit on your hands after a while and do not chase and do not put up the price and as happened to me i have a full order book but with little profit yes i earn more than a police sargent or bus driver but they dont put up with half the hours grief and until wfp  the danger the topic was how we can improve our lot have healty busnisses and take on in some small way the big boys david  v golieth we can win and we must .
never give up hope of doing so .
we can all be winners the fighttback starts here

[L.J.Thorpe]

ewan too true mate i am 20 years in and you make more on avarage than me my shame not yours .


you tend to sit on your hands after a while and do not chase and do not put up the price and as happened to me i have a full order book but with little profit yes i earn more than a police sargent or bus driver but they dont put up with half the hours grief and until wfp  the danger the topic was how we can improve our lot have healty busnisses and take on in some small way the big boys david  v golieth we can win and we must .
never give up hope of doing so .
we can all be winners the fighttback starts here

how do you know he makes more than you :
all he has done is pst afigure about "average customer base"

[L.J.Thorpe]

average price
means nowt
average earnings count

[tonyoliver]

l j my prices are pants and some havent gone up in 18 years true dont laugh...... but it is true a eastern euro who was working in the same street as me came up to look at the system got talking and told me how his team worked .the chinaman did the tops 30 a day the lithuanin who was really a arminian  no papers got 25 a day as he didnt do ladders and the iraqi got 27 a day as he drove
the man the showed me his job cards am i chargeing too little he said  stunned card after card was double what i charged .
20 years in ........tax, insurance ,system and van et all i sorely need to work ony my pricing as the new custys subisdise my old ones and i am the loser there is always areason for not rocking the boat and i lose for not being brave

[peter holley]

i live in south wales

[L.J.Thorpe]

tony my prices are pants for some
sky high for others
look at your weekly or monthly turnover/profit
this is where you need to focus
forget "hourly rate" or "average price"
its a long haul over the year
fill it
some bits will be crap
some will be amazing,criminal even
refine
but always do it properly
and ALWAYS turn up
thats it really
you cant MAKE a five window house pay £10
so do it for a fiver
good enough nest pas

[windowwashers]

OK, I know I have not been doing this full time, for as long as a lot of you have. But I have been as honest and try to offer some advice.

You tell me then if I am doing things right so far, for the time I have been doing this my average customer valuation in the first 4-6 months was £8.50 then it continually has gone up so now the average customer base is £30.

I know what I am doing and I still have a lot to learn, I had an advantage in that my dad was a window cleaner.

In another year or so I guarantee this figure will be higher. Because I know it can be I just haven’t got there yet.

If you have been window cleaning longer than me and your average is less (sole trader) maybe you should listen. (If similar type of business).

Just because individuals have been doing window cleaning years longer than I have doesn’t mean they are learning, just repeating the same thing year in year out.

 

Ewan, I was not slating you at all just asking a question, if you have £30 average thats good, if you have 5 customers I guess not so good. My point was not about what you earn or the way you earn it more about methods that work and have done for a long time, I learn all the time I am not stupid enough to think I know it all as I do not, nor am I stupid enough to listen to some of the things posted on here. I am straight down the line in what I ask. straight to the point as always  


Ian

p.s I repeat what works me me, and evolve things that start not to, discard silly posts also

[L.J.Thorpe]

ewan
a friend of mine has an average price of £9.62
he has 471 customers
thats why average price means nowt
not trying to be a smart ass just making point as to why average price not important

[Nathanael Jones]

Ian, Reputation is important only up to a point after that it’s all business.

If you are referring only to having a good reputation,.. then yes I agree with you.

But get a bad reputation an word will spread very quickly,.. and even the best marketing and advertising will give disappointing results.

I think a balance is needed,.. a professional job and a quality result,... but business is business, some clients want the quick/cheap/slightly below your normal standard clean and are unprepared to pay for anything other than that. Give the client what they want, so long as it doesn't give you that bad reputation.

[L.J.Thorpe]

it is important that he gets the round done in five weeks(maybe six at a push)
it is important that customers think they get vfm
it is important that he still works to live
thats it for him

[windowwashers]

Ian, Reputation is important only up to a point after that it’s all business.
You are never going to please all the customers all the time.

I would say what’s more important are adequate insurance and all your other administration in placing, for example.

All this goes towards you being reputable anyway.

I personally cover a wide area, if I did have a malicious group of customers tying to ruin my good reputation they won’t make a dent in my business. I would be more at risk if anything serious should happen and I didn’t have my administration in order which I would imagine applies to most on here. That would surely dissolve this idea of a good reputation.

 

We cover a 40 miles square from base Ewan, and reputation works very well for me m8, I have very good customer services in place, staff do the same any problems get passed to me, I am nice even if they are bad but I am hard lined with payments as all clients are told from the start. I do not want unhappy customers and would bend over backwards to stop this happening, to think this is not a good thing to do is madness, reputation in this line of work is a very good thing to have, there are many bad window cleaners out there m8, trust me I have been doing this long enough to know I hear it month in month out as will many will have.

I have quantity I go for quality always, i buy rounds trim and keep quality work only and any that do not convert to terms I set out, I cancel the servic, low quality customers (bad payers/nightmare access) and leave for others to pick up so I think i do my bit for all the pub cleaners and starters and also the bad canvassers that like an easy day  .

[ftp]

I thought customers just want their windows cleaned? Hardly a work of art is it? So most customers want two things - their windows cleaned and reliability. I think people read to much into their business - this has to be the simplest most basic form of business there is?

[bluez]

If I am not mistaken the topic is "how to compete with the big boys" and weather a good or great reputation is entirely necessary is a very valid discussion point. I dont see anywhere that Ewan has said HE does a poor job or cheap shoddy work but as usual lots of you lot go off on one instead of adding your opinions and discussing the issue.

I do not think that a good reputation and only doing what the customer requests or mutually exclusive.

ISS operate in my area and have a crap reputation but yet they still thrive (I regularly lose out to them on big work), that does not mean that I will begin to do work as badly as them to compete but it does make it a valid point for discussion.

[ftp]

All i'm saying Ewan is don't complicate things, don't run before you can walk, get a good base first, then start thinking about competing with the big boys. You've only been going a short time and so have i but i don't have my sights set on the massive contracts because i know i'm not in a position to do them. In my opinion your going to need to expand a hell of a lot first. 

[mark dew]

All i'm saying Ewan is don't complicate things, don't run before you can walk, get a good base first, then start thinking about competing with the big boys. You've only been going a short time and so have i but i don't have my sights set on the massive contracts because i know i'm not in a position to do them. In my opinion your going to need to expand a hell of a lot first. 

I agree with this. I'm only now looking at doing commercial work. I have been approached before but turned it down as i didn't have the kit or the knowledge in pricing up. I bought a sl2 recently that has opened up a new world of possbilities for window cleaning, so now i'm more receptive to the idea.
The good point about commercial work is that it can be done regardless of weather and it can be lucrative.
The trouble with it is that if my round was built on commercial alone i would be vulnerable in a recession. Something i am not with domestic work.
I don't want to bandy about prices either but 1 of the commercial jobs i do has a value of approx £50 per hour while another is around £35. My domestic work will bring me per hour worked, £35 - 40.
The difference with commercial pricing is that if you are adept at your work, you are onto a winner if you are working directly for them. The trouble is alot of work has been absorbed into the general cleaners quotes and gets subbed out to us.

As to how to compete with the big boys, i believe you would have to either be like them regards manpower and wage structure. Or as a smaller business we can compete and better the level of service provided by the big companies simply by selling the personal service we can offer.
The way i see it though, high streets and the like are not where there is any money. Unless you have it all. Better money is with other businesses such as property management etc.

If you look on the pros forum, i think it is steve lowe who has posted about trying to get into domestic work again as he has lost a sizeable contract. He's established and can probably absorb the hit, but for many of us concentrating on this golden goose work, i suspect not. 

[Kevin R]

Ok I agree its all about volume, most of the quotes I see on here for £1 a window no matter how many windows there are, are simply ridiculous and posted usually by people that just dont have a clue.

Can you explain what you mean please?

If there are 4000 windows £4000 might be a little over the odds if the windows are all next to each other 

[Oakley Windows]

Cheers, just wasnt particularly clear.

To me anyway.