[LTT Leathercare]

Spewing is generally only seen in new leathers and is caused by the destabilisation of the fat liquors

As I said Roger it is 'generally' only seen in new leathers.  Spewing is a specific problem with a specific treatment and as Derek pointed out is due to a certain set of circumstances.  Even in these circumstances we do not replace the fat liquors we only stabilise them. Leather that has been correctly retanned and handled will not have a spew problem (otherwise all leather would have a white haze on it).

The powder on the old sofa could be anything from talcum powder to spewing and is difficult to tell without having the piece to examine.  It could be salt crystals coming out if the items have been wet.

Shorty

Fatliquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it. 
However, along with the fatliquor, the other critical factor is moisture.  Any leather is going to lose its moisture in a not car.  Although leather seems dry, it is not.  Of course too much moisture quickly leads to mold and mildew problems, so soaking it down is not reasonable.  Ideally, exposure to humid atmosphere will help balance the effect of over drying on hot days.  Leather is very dynamic with respect to moisture content, meaning moisture comes and goes easily under normal circumstances...."

as you can see here the important factor is moisture - water. Most fat liquors contain water and leather itself has a high water content.  When this level is depleted that is when leather becomes hard and brittle - it is due to the loss of the moisture in the fat liquors not the loss of the fat liquors themselves.  So moisture content is the important thing to consider (when "conditioning" leather).  The use of 'conditioning' products that contain oils waxes etc do not benefit the leather and are a myth.  Protectors on the other hand (when water based) help protect leather surfaces from dirt and staining and help balance the moisture content at the same time.  Oils and waxes do not protect leather (you can test this yourself).  Dirt damages leather finishes and this is what a protector guards against particularly on coated leathers.
I take it you are still using LM products and this is certainly the philosophy they have always advocated.

[Roger Koh]

Spewing is generally only seen in new leathers and is caused by the destabilisation of the fat liquors

As I said Roger it is 'generally' only seen in new leathers.  Spewing is a specific problem with a specific treatment and as Derek pointed out is due to a certain set of circumstances.  Even in these circumstances we do not replace the fat liquors we only stabilise them.

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Quote
"Even in these circumstances we do not replace the fat liquors we only stabilise them."


All the while, I am not talking of “replace” the fatliquor.

I say that fatliquor diminishes just like auto engine oils that need top-up or replenish.

So, how about situation like this?

Stabilize it?

or

Replenish it?






Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Shorty the protection cream is to add an invisible layer on the leather, pigmented or other wise whether it absorbs into the leather and makes the leather less absorbant or on pigmented works like a floor seal and aids against soil attaching to the surface. (I think you know that already you monkey!!!)

Shaun
 
PS Roger I have an Aniline footstool which is getting cracked if you send me a small sample and directions I will show everyone my results and we can all judge from an independant stance, what do you think?

shaun_ashmore@lineone.net

[Harry]

Hi all, interesting discussion you have going here.
Part of the problem, I believe, is semantics and a lack of universally accepted definitions.

Words like:

Humectant
Rejuvenator
Neetsfoot oil
Fatliquor
Hide cream
Conditioner
Moisturizer
Protectors

Then we have oil pull-ups that presumably allow moisture movement ( transpiration ) but also repel water but easily water mark.

Technology marches on and as Judy pointed out some are testing water based dyes, while others have already developed them and replaced the solvent based ones. One wonders how solvent based dyes affect the fatliquor situation in that leather.
Leather Master does not appear to have come out with anything new in ages and just because a traditionalist says it must be so does not make it completely true.

We do know that under some circumstances fatliqours can spew to the surface and do we really think that through a piece of Leathers life that everything remains "stable" ?

Transpiration (the natural flow of moisture back and forth through leather) has to take place otherwise it is not leather.

 Finishes have to allow for this process but they do not allow the absorption of fats/oils etc.

Every tannery has its own carefully balanced fatliquor mix which is used during the re tanning process.  If leather could be re fatliquored you would need to know the exact mix of these fats/oils to be able to do this process otherwise it would unbalance the oils/fats that were already in there. 

Judy, please look at the picture that Roger posted at the beginning of this thread, you do see all of the dark oily spots on the sofa. How do you square this with your statement that
"Finishes have to allow for this process but they do not allow the absorption of fats/oils etc."?

That sofa sure looks like it absorbed a lot of oil.

Despite all of the learned comments made here, all I can say is that I have used LM's Leather Vital, Leather Institute's Conditioner and Protector, Leatherique's Rejuvinator and various other Hide creams and conditioners along with Roger's Fatliquor.  I don't really care what it is or what you call it but it certainly has been far more effective in side by side comparisons than anything else that I've ever tried over the years on primarily furniture leather.

cheers Tony

[LTT Leathercare]

Tony
We appreciate your comments

Yes it is all about semantics and communication and about how posts are read.

When we speak of leather not absorbing fats and oils we are speaking of the use of 'conditioners' that contain fats and oils.  Because leather is absorbent oils will eventually be absorbed into the leather as in the case of body oils, but this is over a long period of time.   
When people use 'conditioners' containing oils and waxes they generally assume they are being immediately soaked into the leather.  These waxes and oils are not and will sit on the surface for a long time and as they sit on the surface they gather more dirt etc which damages the finish.

Body oils contain more acids and therefore would be more aggressive and able to soak through finishes.  We have seen the damage that body oils do to leather so why would you want to add more oils to a piece of leather furniture.

Terminology does seem to be the problem here.  Rogers use of the words re fat liquoring are what we are questioning.  Re fat liquoring of leather is not possible according to our sources (tanners, technologists, scientists etc.).  As Rogers product is water based (as is Vital etc) then it is this moisture that is doing the work not fat liquors.

Just to clarify Tony the 'dyes' we are testing are water based aniline dyes, we have been using water based pigments since before we were in the USA.


Cheers
Judy

[Roger Koh]

Yes it is all about semantics and communication and about how posts are read.

Terminology does seem to be the problem here.  Rogers use of the words re fat liquoring are what we are questioning.  Re fat liquoring of leather is not possible according to our sources (tanners, technologists, scientists etc.).  As Rogers product is water based (as is Vital etc) then it is this moisture that is doing the work not fat liquors.
Cheers
Judy

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We can explain how this fatliquor5.0 works by omitting the word “re fat liquoring”.



Simply said:


Before softening and strengthening dried-up leathers, it is best to hydrate it.

When hydrating, a leather-safe pH 3.3 hydrator is preferred to separate the leather fibrils that stick together and to relax them too.

While the leather is damp, a pH 5.0 fatliquor is introduced to replenish what’s diminished.

Strays milky micro-emulsion fatliquor5.0 that remains on leather surface is further charged with a pH 3.0 acidifier for a more effective hydrogen-bonding between the protein fibers cationic (+ve) with the anionic (-ve) fatliquor5.0.

Slow drying is preferred for extra softness.

Wicked-up suspended soil particulates can be wiped-off at drying intervals and crispy dries soil particulates can be erase-off with either a leather or nubuck eraser.

When leather is dry staking, massaging or stretching will make the leather as soft as you wish.

That’s how fatliquor5.0 works - Helps to keep leather at its optimum physical performance and prevent premature ageing!



Hope you like it better without the use of this “re fat liquoring” Terminology!


Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

[Tony Gill Carpet Smart]

Very well explained.
If others have a different view that is fine we can all make our own minds up If given the information from the experts in leather be it Ben, Roger or Judy I know when it comes to carpet cleaning methods there are many different view points. Who is wright or wrong 

Tony
 

[Roger Koh]

 
PS Roger I have an Aniline footstool which is getting cracked if you send me a small sample and directions I will show everyone my results and we can all judge from an independant stance, what do you think?

shaun_ashmore@lineone.net

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Let's see what you have first?



Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

[Roger Koh]

The use of 'conditioning' products that contain oils waxes etc do not benefit the leather and are a myth.  .

---


Would you kindly share with us your understanding of "Wax Pull-ups" and "Oil Pull-ups" and how would you condition them as to revive them to their original Pull-Up Effect, please?



Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

[Neil Mc Anulty]

It would be interesting to get our other leather expert's point of view. Ben from furniture clinic

[robert meldrum]

If Ben has any sense and I know he has he will leave this alone !


Judy has shown in this discussion that she has a greater knowledge than I realised, but Roger has the the EVIDENCE to back up everything he says

I've been to both LTT and FC and both were good courses, but I'd love to have spent a couple of days with Roger in what appears to be a very busy workshop.

[LTT Leathercare]

Evidence?