Robin Ray

Jag
« on: September 22, 2012, 11:58:53 am »
With all this talk of cfms and lift from the the enforcer and the turbo, I noticed the someone posted somewhere a video of the jag producing 325 cfm. I wondered what the specs for the 6.6 motors are so looked them up on the Ametek website. http://dev.ametekfsm.com/Bulletins/122235-00.pdf
So if one 6.6 motor can produce 139.9 cfm two can only produce a maximum of 279.8 cfm. So how does the Jag produce 325 cfm?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReOUQ6f2IYA

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Jag
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 12:17:32 pm »
 Ray , its all nonsense ,  those cfm gauges can be calibrated to read anything .

 They will be lucky to get 275 cfm .

 I suspect because they used to state on the CA website that the scorpion had 326 cfm , they had to come up with a figure the same to keep up the pretense the jag is more powerfull .

The vid was mentioned on a US forum ,  ED V's explanation  was the 230v version is more efficient , but when it was shown to him that the US/UK version has the same test spec from ameteks lab , and amp draw is the only difference , he had no answers .

Steambrites testing shows 274 cfm .


stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: Jag
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 01:11:16 pm »
The Guy on the Vid sounds like Nick White!

Richard Basey-Fisher

  • Posts: 260
Re: Jag
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 04:55:46 pm »
I really want a jag






































XF

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: Jag
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 06:36:32 pm »
My Mum has an XF. Great car (if you like that kinda thing)

stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: Jag
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 07:36:24 pm »
Richard
Believe me you dont mate !

Richard Basey-Fisher

  • Posts: 260
Re: Jag
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 11:05:40 am »
I am torn between a 5 series bmw or an xf at the moment .

Jamie Pearson

  • Posts: 3407
Re: Jag
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2012, 11:56:06 am »
My dad had 6 x 5 series BMW's in a row.
He claims the XF is a better car.
He had 530 and 525 diesels.

Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: Jag
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2012, 12:08:23 pm »
We had an xf to try I thought it was ok but that's it looks a bit old man but that's more of a personal thing also there wasn't much room for the tm.

Shaun

Robin Ray

Re: Jag
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2012, 01:02:38 pm »
Ray , its all nonsense ,  those cfm gauges can be calibrated to read anything .

 They will be lucky to get 275 cfm .

 I suspect because they used to state on the CA website that the scorpion had 326 cfm , they had to come up with a figure the same to keep up the pretense the jag is more powerfull .

The vid was mentioned on a US forum ,  ED V's explanation  was the 230v version is more efficient , but when it was shown to him that the US/UK version has the same test spec from ameteks lab , and amp draw is the only difference , he had no answers .

Steambrites testing shows 274 cfm .



It does seem as if the figures have been fabricated some how. But I don't see why, 279 cfm is pretty good from 2 vacs. Maybe there is a real explanation but I cant seem to get anyone who is suposed to know to answer. Where is Ed Valentine or Nick or any one with a Jag?

And yes I would like a Jag XF too but a M5 would be a lot better.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Jag
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2012, 01:41:17 pm »
Ray , its all nonsense ,  those cfm gauges can be calibrated to read anything .

 They will be lucky to get 275 cfm .

 I suspect because they used to state on the CA website that the scorpion had 326 cfm , they had to come up with a figure the same to keep up the pretense the jag is more powerfull .

The vid was mentioned on a US forum ,  ED V's explanation  was the 230v version is more efficient , but when it was shown to him that the US/UK version has the same test spec from ameteks lab , and amp draw is the only difference , he had no answers .

Steambrites testing shows 274 cfm .



It does seem as if the figures have been fabricated some how. But I don't see why, 279 cfm is pretty good from 2 vacs. Maybe there is a real explanation but I cant seem to get anyone who is suposed to know to answer. Where is Ed Valentine or Nick or any one with a Jag?

And yes I would like a Jag XF too but a M5 would be a lot better.

Robin ( got your name right this time )  :)

You simply cant believe anything from CT or camp CA
Respect to u for raising your question on CT  , im sure they are in a kerfuffle thinking up a plasable excuse ,
or they will just fob off the queston .

Also , did i see some chap suggesting he had 400cfm by removing the silencer ?  no disrespect to anyone trying to improve their machine , but this is nuts also .... It reminds me of guys who used to fit 4" exhausts to 1.3 novas and think they gained 50bhp , when all they gained was noise .
Steembrite tested the jag at 274 with the silencer on , this suggests it makes little or no difference and the couple of cfm u might gain by removing it is far out weighed by the benefit of reduced noise imo .




Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: Jag
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2012, 03:00:20 pm »
400cfms is what a truck mount produces not but most suppliers will manipulate to suit ashbys being another the figures are interesting but the vac at the end of the wand is the proof or even better the dryness of the carpet.

Shaun

stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: Jag
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 04:25:14 pm »
I have noticed on Clean Talk, that Anthony Nash has fitted 2" internal pipes in his Jag and is now claiming near the 400 cfm mark! I wonder how he camt to this figure!
I can see why removing the exhast will let the machine breath better, as without the exhaust it will be less restrictive!  Oh yes I can Still get on CT by the way I  Just cant Post, JB Said it was my Cooling off period! Ha Ha Ha

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Jag
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 07:22:02 pm »
I have noticed on Clean Talk, that Anthony Nash has fitted 2" internal pipes in his Jag and is now claiming near the 400 cfm mark! I wonder how he camt to this figure!
I can see why removing the exhast will let the machine breath better, as without the exhaust it will be less restrictive!  Oh yes I can Still get on CT by the way I  Just cant Post, JB Said it was my Cooling off period! Ha Ha Ha

As Robin suggested 279 is around the maximum achievable based on Ameteks Lab figures , any machine design will only help prevent  losses it cant increase that figure .

I don't blame anyone for tinkering and improving their machines , but the dishonest exaggeration of figures and implausible hype comes from the top down , the core is rotten ...

And this dishonesty spreads and infects others  ...   look at Ashbys , they've gone completely mad !    :o

garry22

Re: Jag
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2012, 07:43:41 pm »
Does hot or cold ambient air temperature or altitude make a difference?

Not as daft as you think. I know it makes a difference in sailing  ;)

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Jag
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2012, 07:58:56 pm »
Does hot or cold ambient air temperature or altitude make a difference?

Not as daft as you think. I know it makes a difference in sailing  ;)

Waterlift test is effected by atmospheric pressure  .

Not significant in CFM testing .

richie

  • Posts: 1179
Re: Jag
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 02:02:09 am »
Its no surprise that the figures are been hyped up really.  Now, as for those figures....who tested them?  At what length hose were those figures given?  I have used the Jag and Scorpion.  Neither come close to the vac power of a truckmount....even those truckmounts with say a 33 blower are more powerful.  Yes i know its because they have Positive Dispacement blowers and cant really be comparable to electric motors.  Regardless of what portable (Jag, Scrpion, Airflex) to name just a few.....these machines are good but once you go over 50 feet of hose you start to notice the drop in CFM

Russ Chadd

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Jag
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2012, 10:13:20 am »
My Jag has now had the exhaust removed and i have opted for 1.5" hose throughout the machine with duel exhausts.
The increase in airflow has been quite remarkable, yes the noise level has increased, however this is a trade off you would expect.
I doubt i will get the chance to measure my machines performance but then i feel the increase at the wand so im not that bothered about figures...

Ed Valentine

  • Posts: 183
Re: Jag
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2012, 02:33:44 pm »
John;

You stated:   
Quote
"Steembrite tested the jag at 274 with the silencer on"

You will note that our web site states a figure of:  288

That is a difference of only 14 , which seems to anyone as being minimal. Therefore, IMHO, the Steembrite testing would be acceptable.

Your assumptions:

 "
Quote
ED V's explanation  was the 230v version is more efficient , but when it was shown to him that the US/UK version has the same test spec from ameteks lab , and amp draw is the only difference , he had no answers" .

...respectfully is nothing more than horse manure once again. Were you aware that the 230v runs at 10,000 rpm's more?

I must say however obvious is appears, that you represent the competition very well, sir!

best to all;
Ed Valentine

Robin Ray

Re: Jag
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2012, 03:33:11 pm »
Hi Ed

As you are here now can I ask you if the specs for your motors are different to the ones here on the Ametek web sitehttp://dev.ametekfsm.com/Bulletins/122235-00.pdf

Not saying thay arn't, Im just wondering how two vacs in the jag can produce more power than they had in the first place. After all Ametek say the 6.6 has 139.9 cfm two would therefore have a max of 279.8 however 240v version of the jag shows over 325 cfm. How is this possible? thats an increse of over 45 cfm!!