[robert meldrum]

For the first time in nearly 30 years I had a call back to deal with a " smelly " carpet. The carpet was a long pile twist polyprop and being clean needed and received a low volume of water to rinse out the prespray which only applied to the usual high traffic areas.

As usual the carpet looked " as good as new " and only slightly damp when I finished.

TWO DAYS LATER got a call from the lady saying there was a " cat pee like smell " so went back and rinsed out with urine neutraliser.

Further phone call saying it's as bad or even worse !

Went to retailer to check the construction and was informed that I was the 4th or 5th carpet cleaner with same problem.

The carpet is a Belgian import ( not a B/W ) and the problem appears to be in the adhesive securing the tufts which is either breaking down or reacting to water. The company has apparently gone bust but there may be lots of this carpet around waiting for the unwary !!!! Don't have the name but will get it and post it.

[Ricky M]

any pics ?

[robert meldrum]

No photos it was a straightforward clean .....................or so it appeared following building work in the house.

[John Kelly]

Are you sure it was Polyprop and not Acrylic as there is the same problem with long pile Acrylic rugs at the moment.

[Colin Day]

My boys football boots smells like cat wee, it's something to do with the adhesive...

I wonder if the same product is used with this particular carpet!!!

[Derek_Walker]

Colin, I know what you mean about the football boots, are they Nike?

Robert, I had the same problem last year. I did everything to try and remove the smell, even took the carpet up and brought it back to my place for treatment. Luckily the customer was only having it cleaned before giving it to her son, as she was having a new one fitted. I realised what the problem was as I had seen the same thing with some latex backed rugs which had not even been cleaned.

[derek west]

how the f%$k do you test for this, scarey and could be costly.

[robert meldrum]

No feasible test Derek it's just a case of knowing about the possibility and I'll get the actual product name and post them soon as!

John

It could have been Acrylic but it's a problem I've never experienced in my 30 years involvement so tend to side with the adhesive theory..............however, with your restoration experience have you any suggestions for odour removal. I realise it's a chemical reaction that's taken place rather than bacterial from wetness / poor drying out..........I never overwet and always achieve good drying times. The weather was warm and sunny and doors were open all day as work was being done.

[John Kelly]

No its the adhesive on the Acrylic rugs as well which is causing the problem. Afraid don't have an answer. Had a few customers have brought these rugs after they've cleaned them and tried everything with no luck. Only thing I haven't tried yet is Ozone.

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

From my days as a Chemist doing a lot of work with adhesives, I can remember UF resins degrading and giving a rotting fish odour (amine).

UF resins are cheap, widely used in chip board etc but could be used in bonding carpets, we used them to bond glass and paper fibres. If they are not properly cured then problems arise.

If degradation of adhesive has occurred then It is unlikely a solution could be found.

Cheers

Doug

[robert meldrum]

It's highly probable from all reports that the situation is as you mention. As there is no actual breakdown of the bonding, just the STINK is it likely that ANYTHING will eliminate or mask the odour.

As there is clearly a problem with the product I'm not concerned about liability but would like to resolve the smelly issue

[Doctor Carpet (Ret'd)]

This happened to me in my first month as a cc. Not knowing what it was i was calledd back and ended up refunding the cost of the rug clean.

I've always been worried about it since. With certain construction types of rug I mention it to the client as a theoretical problem. it's not happened since but you can bet your bottom dollar that the time i don't mention it before cleaning will be the time I should have done.

The question is, is there a way of recognising the problem before it happens and secondly is there a way of informing clients without sounding neurotic?

Thank goodness for forums-if we didn't share these problems we'd all be worrying far more than we are and secondly would never learn the info that Doug has kindly imparted.

Roger

[derek west]

ive actually got a rug in my shed, it was a friends, i cleaned her carpets and she asked if i could get the smell out of the rug for her, had a few goes with no success so she said i could have it to see what i could do, also did a flood job in a pub, when i got there it smelt (?) of wee, couldn't rectify it which i usually can. it obviously wasn't wee so i'm guessing its the same prob. so far (touch wood) ive never actually triggered the smell.

if anyone wants the rug (allthough its been in a damp dirty shed for a while) there welcome to it for research.

[derek west]

got an idea.

smelling any coffee or tea spillages closely, if water creates the smell then you would get a small reaction from spillages.

clutching at straws but its a start.

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

One of the major problems with uncured resins is that this only becomes apparent when the product is wet or subjected to high temeperature.

I spent a lot of time expalining to the plant operatives the importance of checking the curing temperatures and their relevance to the products use in the real world. In a relatively high speed operation the curing times are short and if the adhesive has the wrong pH or is not heated to sufficent temp then it will not be properly cured.

I could only tell by carrying out water immersion tests, not really practical in the field!

Cheers

Doug

[Mike Halliday]

I think the only way to protect your self against this is to follow a professional & set procedure.

if you clean every carpet with the same set of procedures you will know the exact outcome, if the outcome changes then you know it is due to something unknown & out of your control

If i cleaned 50 nylon carpets in exactly  the same way but the next day just one of them  had a bunch of daffodils growing out the centre would it be my fault?,

the same with this smell, if you follow a set procedure ( perhaps laid out by a professional, recognised training organisation like the IICRC) then you can prove your actions did not cause the smell

[Mike Halliday]

  .............then you can prove your actions did not cause the smell

just read what I typed and I'm wrong : :

 if the smell was'nt there before you cleaned but was afterwards then you did cause the smell, but was it your fault ......I don't think so

[robert meldrum]

I was working within the IICRC procedures,  in fact taking more care than usual to achieve a rapid drying time, by putting down a low volume of water ( the carpet was only slightly soiled ) and giving more than average drying strokes. There were two small children in the house.

The weather and airflow conditions were absolutely ideal being hot and dry and with builders in the house doors were open back and front.

Unfortunately there was nothing to indicate any likelihood of a problem and the carpet was cleaned beautifully with no colour loss or shrinkage or distortion !

[wynne jones]

So what do you do Robert? Do you tell custy to go back to where they bought it or do you take it on the chin and buy a new rug for her?

[Joe H]

Interesting this - I finished a job today - straight forward carpet clean. Talking after to the old couple, they said one of their daughters had her carpets and rug cleaned a few years ago. They were happy with the carpets but the rug smelt horrible afterwards.
It was an Indian rug they said, cost about £75 but as I say it was some years ago.
Everything they tried to get rid of the smell failed, in the end the rug was dumped.
I did relate to them about this post.

[John Kelly]

Derek, the pub job you mentioned is normal. They do stink when wet due to stale beer and they usually have felt underlays. Smell won't go on these until completely dry.

[derek west]

broken dishwasher did the flooding. really stunk like cat wee. wierd, didn't get a call back though and got paid, cheers john.

[robert meldrum]

Did a similar job to Dereks a week ago.............fridge left open over the weekend and flooded a small area of an office with accompanying smell.

That job was extracted, sprayed with an enzyme product and rinsed clear of odours and left clean.

This " smelly job "was, on the face of it, a straightforward clean of a longish but dense synthetic pile twist, which if constructed properly should have presented no problem.

Because it was a " clean " carpet and there was a requirement for quick drying there was a low volume of water and the psi was down at 150 max.

Having cleaned loads of B/W's without mishap there was never the slightest expectation of a problem with this type carpet and with the very small amount of water reaching the base of the pile it's astonishing that a chemical reaction appears to have taken place and worse still........there is no known solution to the problem.

Customer has been informed of my discussion with the retailer and my efforts to find a solution from within the industry. I've suggested she contacts the retailer.

[Simon Gerrard]

We've encountered this problem recently. We cleaned the carpet last week and the customer rang a few days later complaining of a urine type smell. We explained the problem and they have now got onto the manufactures. In the meantime we are going to spray a deodoriser on to it.

Simon

[John Kelly]

Seems to be a big problem:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=smelly+latex+glue&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADBS_en-GB&redir_esc=&ei=tUNoTJPVEYOD4Abd8KCZBA

[Neil Williams]

Seems to be a big problem:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=smelly+latex+glue&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADBS_en-GB&redir_esc=&ei=tUNoTJPVEYOD4Abd8KCZBA

I've just been reading through various websites listed above.
This problem seems to go back to at least 2005 with latex backed rugs. Granted most if not all seem to be a USA based problem (items produced in Asia) but you would have thought carpet manufacturers on this side of the Atlantic would have learnt from that problem.

[Simon Gerrard]

Neil,
From what the retailer was saying the manufacturers seem to be aware of the problem. Let's hope they fix it - soon!

Simon

[Neil Williams]

Thanks for the pictures Simon.
Just did a search through Abingdon carpets and was amazed to see that the book price for that carpet is £30/sqm
For that money you would expect it not to give problems, although I have to ask why your customer was having it cleaned? According to Abingdon that carpet seems resistant to just about everything.

[Simon Gerrard]

Neil,

I think it is only stain resistant, but thankfully not dirt resistant.

Simon

[wynne jones]

It's particularly resistant to water, hence getting into the backing.

[Stu.Clem]

I too have a £400 black acrylic long piled rug in my lockup from on of my regulars who had tried to clean it herself and it caused a stink.   I tentatively tried sponges  then more vigourously with MPower / Nemesis followed by prolonged downdraft drying and was STILL stinking in my lockup so black bag sealed it. Now 8 months later she dont want it back admitting that she took its smaller sister version back to shop and was told they had had loads of complaints of these rugs becoming smelly following cleaning attempts something to do with manufacturing process so basically according to the sale of goods act 1984? they are not really fit for the purpose they were designed for??  Sounds like carpet in question has construction issues similar to these rugs.   At least I can bin it now 

Stu