The question is why ?

« **on:** September 23, 2006, 11:32:45 am »

Why does the debate over traditional/wfp get so heated & why in some quarters is it considered as irrelivent?. Surely for someone considering joining the industry at the moment, it's the most important question there is.
A couple of threads have been locked as it's just become a slanging match, but doesn't this just indicate that it is 'thee' topic. Isn't reading such a heated debate of value, even if occassionally it gets a little too prersonal.

« **Reply #1 on:** September 23, 2006, 11:53:21 am »

its all done with light hearted slagging I think,thats untill the wrath of god stops and locks it

« **Reply #2 on:** September 23, 2006, 12:18:42 pm »

Why does the debate over traditional/wfp get so heated
Because some folk just can't conceive that there's the slightest chance of them being wrong.

Their way must be the only way, when it's plainly obvious that different methods work in different situations. The ability to not listen to anyone else's viewpoint I define as bigotry.

& why in some quarters is it considered as irrelivent?
Because it IS irrelevant. If what works for you, works for you, then it works - full stop.

If someone takes time out of their busy day to let you know about something that works for them, why not try it and see if it could work for you too? I've been "scratching" for over twenty years but still frequent boards to find out quicker, better and therefore easier ways of working. I still watch other window cleaners to see if they're doing something I know nothing about.

From the internet, I've discovered wfp - which I now use, dog-earing - which I now use, microfibre cloths - which I now use, GG3 - which I now use, putting out "window cleaner at work" signs - which I now use, squeegeeing a Y into the corners - which I now use. i'm sure there's more but I'm off out soon. All of them make my working life easier and more productive.

I'll stop now, I feel a rant coming on

« **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2006, 12:40:45 pm »

Excellent comments Davie!

we could all learn something from your comments. there all possitive thinking.

« **Reply #4 on:** September 23, 2006, 04:09:43 pm »

Teach me Wavie Davie - what's a "Y" into the corners please?

« **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2006, 04:53:54 pm »

Quote from: Malc(G)old on September 23, 2006, 04:09:43 pm

Teach me Wavie Davie - what's a "Y" into the corners please?

Snap, I was thinking the same thing.

« **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2006, 04:57:50 pm »

Yes please Mr wavie (3 bottles of red then off to bed) Davie.

See you can make sense when you are not drinking

« **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2006, 07:22:20 pm »

Who's oppinion would you value the most? A guy that's been trad for many years, and having switched to WFP finds it a better way of working. Or a guy that's never used WFP but slags it off regardless.
One has tried both methods and made a choice. The other uses one method so has nothing to compare it to. Dai

« **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2006, 11:02:52 pm »

Quote from: Dave @st-ives on September 23, 2006, 04:57:50 pm

Yes please Mr wavie (3 bottles of red then off to bed) Davie.

See you can make sense when you are not drinking

If you can remember that I wasn't making sense, you probably got your wife subby'd to do most of the drinking for you as well as most of your round

This is easier to show, rather than write out, but . . .
Hold the squeegee in your right-hand so that the channel is horizontal. Now rotate your arm between a quarter and half way (that's 3/8ths for any other pre-decimal dinosaurs like me) round to the left. Your fore-arm should be horizontal and the squeegee is now like a mirror image Y.

Start blading up-the-way on the left side of the pane about a foot or so below the corner and as you're moving up, bring the left corner of the channel so that it's vertical just as the right's getting to the corner, and then blade across the top edge with your channel vertical.

Repeat that corner motion as you're getting to the right corner so you come down the right side with the channel horizontal, but then turning the channel so that the right end is getting close to vertical.

Bring the blade back up in a J shaped movement and turn it left so that you're backtracking along where you've just cleaned with an overlap of an inch or two. Do a mirror image J on the left . . . back along . . . J on the right . . .

Some folk reverse the start so that they're going along the top edge and into the left corner, that's a sideways Y, then they J back.

I'm sure there's different names for the same manoeuvre. If you already use this method, what's it called in your neck of the woods? Apart from the top corner stuff, the edge bits are called Arching by some - if you're dog-earing it saves a fair bit of detailing too.

The letters A and J were brought to you by special arrangement with Dalzell Window Cleaning, and that'll be a Fiver, thanks.

« **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2006, 11:12:10 pm »

I think you'll find its called squeegeeing Dave

Dai I have spent many years using trad before getting wfp, which is good for some commercial jobs, but in my opinion is a pain in the bum for most domestics

« **Reply #10 on:** September 23, 2006, 11:20:00 pm »

Quote from: groundhog on September 23, 2006, 11:12:10 pm

I think you'll find its called squeegeeing Dave

Don't be so patronising, you young whippersnapper

Who showed you that method - cos you didn't invent it all by yourself - or did you read about it on the net?

Watch anyone squeegeeing for the first time - they'll start in the middle, lift the blade, go back over a run by hitting it with the channel . . . Come on, how did you start, it's quiet at this time of night - own up!

« **Reply #11 on:** September 23, 2006, 11:31:06 pm »

sorry Dave I didn't mean to sound patronising, I think I must have seen another window cleaner using a similar method and copied it. When I first started I couldn't get the hang of the squeegee at all, I used to scrim a dry line down the side of the glass and then squeegee from left to right, wiping the blade after each stroke, a bit slower but very effective

I had better stop slagging off wfp or Ian will lock this thread or delete my posts as usual

« **Reply #12 on:** September 23, 2006, 11:44:09 pm »

sorry Dave I didn't mean to sound patronising,
No probs - there was a smiley at the end!

I think I must have seen another window cleaner using a similar method and copied it. When I first started I couldn't get the hang of the squeegee at all,
And now I bet all your customers say "Oh, that looks easy!"

I used to scrim a dry line down the side of the glass and then squeegee from left to right, wiping the blade after each stroke, a bit slower but very effective Smiley
I've just described a similar-ish method to someone who's been on the tools for longer than me. I dog-ear, which more or less eliminates having to detail, but he seemingly wipes round every frame and goes through a fair amount of cloths. I told him to soap up, wipe round the edges with his damp sill-cloth, and then blade as normal. Hopefully he'll go through one cloth a day and it'll be dry at the end of his shift!

I had better stop slagging off wfp or Ian will lock this thread or delete my posts as usual Angry
Well, what's the point in paying for advertising if it doesn't bring anything in?

« **Reply #13 on:** September 24, 2006, 01:24:07 am »

Quote from: WavieDavie on September 23, 2006, 11:02:52 pm

Quote from: Dave @st-ives on September 23, 2006, 04:57:50 pm
Yes please Mr wavie (3 bottles of red then off to bed) Davie.

See you can make sense when you are not drinking

If you can remember that I wasn't making sense, you probably got your wife subby'd to do most of the drinking for you as well as most of your round

This is easier to show, rather than write out, but . . .
Hold the squeegee in your right-hand so that the channel is horizontal. Now rotate your arm between a quarter and half way (that's 3/8ths for any other pre-decimal dinosaurs like me) round to the left. Your fore-arm should be horizontal and the squeegee is now like a mirror image Y.

Start blading up-the-way on the left side of the pane about a foot or so below the corner and as you're moving up, bring the left corner of the channel so that it's vertical just as the right's getting to the corner, and then blade across the top edge with your channel vertical.

Repeat that corner motion as you're getting to the right corner so you come down the right side with the channel horizontal, but then turning the channel so that the right end is getting close to vertical.

Bring the blade back up in a J shaped movement and turn it left so that you're backtracking along where you've just cleaned with an overlap of an inch or two. Do a mirror image J on the left . . . back along . . . J on the right . . .

Some folk reverse the start so that they're going along the top edge and into the left corner, that's a sideways Y, then they J back.

I'm sure there's different names for the same manoeuvre. If you already use this method, what's it called in your neck of the woods? Apart from the top corner stuff, the edge bits are called Arching by some - if you're dog-earing it saves a fair bit of detailing too.

The letters A and J were brought to you by special arrangement with Dalzell Window Cleaning, and that'll be a Fiver, thanks.

youre not making sense now though, i didnt understand one bit of that.

By the way i am totally self taught

Dave

« **Reply #14 on:** September 24, 2006, 07:14:05 am »

Groundhog,

Why do you find domestics a "pain in the bum" with WFP?

I don't want to start an argument, just trying to find out what your problems are to see if I can suggest any thing to help.

As you may have read, I am an avid Backpack "worshiper!" and found ALL my round much easier.

On the other hand, you may be quite happy the way you are.

Just wondered if I could offer any help.

David

« **Reply #15 on:** September 24, 2006, 09:30:28 am »

I think some domestics are a pain in the bum because you spend more time running out hoses round the pot plants etc than you do actually cleaning the windows.

Personally I couldn't care less about all this trad v Wfp stuff. It was a bit amusing at first but now It just repeats itself.

I'm only in it for the money so I do what ever I need to do to earn the dosh.

However, I do find it quicker and easier lugging around a lightweight pole than a bloody great ladder. Also I don't miss those pants filling moments when the ladder moves.

I still trad french windows and patio door because of the hand marks but WFP is definitely better for the rest. No contest

« **Reply #16 on:** September 24, 2006, 09:35:17 pm »

No trailing hoses with a packpack!

« **Reply #17 on:** September 25, 2006, 09:43:05 am »

Dave, its the constantly having to go back to the van to re-fill that puts me off a backpack, I have thought about getting one for accassional use on my domestic round, when I have an awkward window but don't want to have to mess about with hoses. Do you use yours on its own, or do you also have a van mount?

« **Reply #18 on:** September 25, 2006, 12:33:50 pm »

A van mount is no good on domestic, unless you are focusing on the top end where you are mostly working off of someones drive.
If your business is your bog standard domestic, involving quite a bit of driving & parking where you can, then deffinitely you need a back pack. I've worked with all three. ladder & squeegee, van mount, back pack & I know what I consider far & away the best option.
Refilling is really not a big deal as long as you have a vehicle with reasonable access.

« **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2006, 07:35:57 pm »

Groundhog,

Simons right, filling a backpack is no big deal. Yes it is a consideration, but only takes me 2 mins and thats with a 12ltr/min caravan pump! When I get round to a 12v 50ltr/min it'll be half the time. I honestly think the time you save on getting on the job and moving to the next (no hose moving) is far more than the time to refill the backpack.

When I first got it I was lifting it up and pouring 30ltr barrels in it to fill! Bloody nightmare! If thats the way you operate then it IS a pain!
I opertate the backpack like this

« **Reply #20 on:** September 26, 2006, 09:27:26 pm »

youre not making sense now though, i didnt understand one bit of that.

Remember, I said . . .
This is easier to show, rather than write out,

And groundhog recognised it as squeegeeing anyway, so there!

« **Reply #21 on:** September 26, 2006, 10:16:34 pm »

Glad To see you have put a Substantial hip belt on your backback Dave.

Do you think it was worth while?

Where did you get the hip belt from?

Nel.

« **Reply #22 on:** September 26, 2006, 10:37:41 pm »

Quote from: D.Salkeld_Ltd on September 25, 2006, 07:35:57 pm

When I first got it I was lifting it up and pouring 30ltr barrels in it to fill! Bloody nightmare! If thats the way you operate then it IS a pain!
I opertate the backpack like this

Dave I'm refilling from barrels and I totally agree its driving me nuts, but even if its not just for refilling, carrying the backpack for me is still a pain, personally I'm fed up with carrying more water than is needed, I have no dought wfp can do the job but if things dont get better than using a backpack I'll go back to ladders. personally I think I'd rather have had a freedom trolley or I may even make a trolley out of the backpack.