[Ian_Giles]

I'm afraid this post is going to have more trad v WFP in it....it wasn't supposed, it is really done in response to a remark Squeaky made regarding how slow the guy in the 'procurve' video clip was in doing a large plate glass window,  http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9544.msg190043#msg190043

!Pah!' Says Squeaky, 'I could do it faster than that!!'

Well the guy looked very casual, but if you time him, he was pretty quick.
So I thought that as I am considering getting one of these Procurve pole setups, whilst I was in town this morning doing my shops I would have an experiment to see how fast I could clean a particular pane of glass with my existing pole and squeegee.

Rog, the pane is question is the larger of the 2 panes of glass that face out into the high street on the Peter Briggs shoe shop.

Now the top of this pane is about ten feet off the ground, the pane is maybe, 7 or 8ft wide, closerto 7ft perhaps.
This is a pane of glass that done trad needs to be done with a 5ft pole, you can use an 8ft pointer on it, but you have to do it in 2 moves due to the width of the pane.

so with stopwatch at the ready, my applicator fitted to the pole, I click start and quickly wash the glass (it's a weekly clean and there were no greasy marks to remove)
Squeegee at the ready, applicator thrown on the ground, squeegee slapped and and away we go!
Brought it down as far as I needed to before finishing off with squeegee in han, and just like Turbo Terry, I finish with a wipe of the squeegee across the bottom edge.........
Stop the watch!

How long do you think??

Ok, the title of this thread gives it away.....I felt I had done it quick, but was quite shocked to see it had taken me 60 seconds to do it

So I thought I would compare it to WFP.

Up until now I would have said with absolute certainty that no way could WFP be quicker on a single pane of glass...or so I thought.

Same process, pole at the ready, start the stopwatch!

And away we go!

I don't feel I am going as fast as I did with the squeegee, and I am having to spend time getting rid of the soap residue, carrying on though and finish with a wipe across the bottom edge!

Stop the clock!!

Check time taken with one eye closed..then open both eyes wide

37 seconds

Genuinely shocked!
No way did I think that would be possible.

So I finish of the rest of the shop (3 min 40 seconds) and decide to have a couple more goes trad on that pane of glass.

I made 2 more attempts, and I was going very quickly I promise you, I assure you I am no slouch with the pole and squeegee.

Best time was 49 seconds, the other attempt was 52 seconds.

I was treating it like a race too, no wway would I want to work at that pace.

I have a very good and effective pole technique, and I think I am fast...

But not as fast as with the WFP, and with WFP it was done at normal working pace too.


This was really done by me to see what, if any difference there will be when I purchase the Procurve setup, I am now even more curious to see if it will be quicker than my normal method.

I've just had to include the WFP element I'm afraid, but it is really about speed when working trad with a pole...

Your comments I shall watch with interest...........


Ian

[AuRavelling79]

Yeah, but I bet the pole job wasn't as good as the trad.

Modified to add: I don't mean this!

[Trevor Knight]

I bet it was ! 

[sunshine windows]

Oh no it wasn't. He's behind you!!!!!!!!

I've never experienced wfp work or squeegeeing with a pole so can't really put an arguement across as to which is fastest but i would have thought that wfp would win every time. Especially if you're using the same pole to wash and squeegee with, you'd take a good 5 seconds just changing the applicator for the squeegee.

Lance

[Moderator David@stives]

I would call that a dead heat if you allow for getting the pole out connecting the hose then reeling it in i, reckon it would be a dead heat, but saying that if there were more windows i reckon the wfp may just win it.

[Jeff Brimble]

Something else to put in the equation. If your trad you need slip/slide solution  on your washer/rubbers- which attract tfr/dirt etc so next time you go trad you have more "dirt"
Not so with wfp the glass stays cleaner longer because of NO attractants.

[macc]

Even if it is a dead heat, wfp wins, less effort. 

[Ian_Giles]

Both methods turned out perfect, this one always comes up perfect with WFP.

Just never realised how much faster I was than trad, its just easier and less strain on the back. (all that bending down to ground level on big panes of glass)

But I want to get a Procurve, I've quite a few areas where it would cope perfectly with my needs...if its any good of course!

Oh no it wasn't. He's behind you!!!!!!!!

I've never experienced wfp work or squeegeeing with a pole so can't really put an arguement across as to which is fastest but i would have thought that wfp would win every time. Especially if you're using the same pole to wash and squeegee with, you'd take a good 5 seconds just changing the applicator for the squeegee.

Lance

Actually Lance, on a single pane, particularly a big one, the squeegee has the potential to be way faster, you only have to watch Turbo Terry Burrows in action, quite awesome.

I would call that a dead heat if you allow for getting the pole out connecting the hose then reeling it in i, reckon it would be a dead heat, but saying that if there were more windows i reckon the wfp may just win it.

This was a straight, lets see how fast I can just clean the pane thing'

Done trad it was always between 7 and 10 mins.
As I do a lot of shops I am up before dawn most the year, and I'm lucky where I am in that I just pull up outside the shops and get on with it..double parked all over the place!!

Something else to put in the equation. If your trad you need slip/slide solution  on your washer/rubbers- which attract tfr/dirt etc so next time you go trad you have more "dirt"
Not so with wfp the glass stays cleaner longer because of NO attractants.

for Sure Jeff, totally agree with you on that one.



Ian

[Peter Fogwill]

How long do you think??

Ok, the title of this thread gives it away.....I felt I had done it quick, but was quite shocked to see it had taken me 60 seconds to do it

So I thought I would compare it to WFP.

Up until now I would have said with absolute certainty that no way could WFP be quicker on a single pane of glass...or so I thought.

Same process, pole at the ready, start the stopwatch!

And away we go!

I don't feel I am going as fast as I did with the squeegee, and I am having to spend time getting rid of the soap residue, carrying on though and finish with a wipe across the bottom edge!

Stop the clock!!

Check time taken with one eye closed..then open both eyes wide

37 seconds

Genuinely shocked!
No way did I think that would be possible.

Ian, I have had a lot of customers tell me they use trad on large shop windows as opposed to the WFP, and I could never understand how they worked that out.  I used the WFP for every outside window.

The setup time can be just the same as setting up to clean trad, so the time on the glass should be compared to see which method is quicker.

Peter Fogwill

[geefree]

i will never be as quick as you guys,

and with the average price being 6 pound in my area, and all my customers being spread out just now,  i think i may struggle to ever earn a good living,

i keep breaking it down with pen and paper, and forecasting where i will be in , say 4 months or six months, and i would have to work 5 ten hour days a week to get 100 pound per day when its built...

god help lol..... i pray i will get faster and faster and hope the good fairy smiles down on me with good commercial work ,, :...

eventually.

Gary.

[geefree]

sorry for drifting off the subject lads 

[Ian_Giles]

Ian, I have had a lot of customers tell me they use trad on large shop windows as opposed to the WFP, and I could never understand how they worked that out.  I used the WFP for every outside window.

The setup time can be just the same as setting up to clean trad, so the time on the glass should be compared to see which method is quicker.

Peter Fogwill

Totally agree with you Peter, I have used my WFP on almost all of my shops and have found myself way quicker by a big margin.

But on a single pane of glass, up until now I would have put money on trad being quicker.

Ian

[JohnL]

I will tell you Ian - you will be a lot slower with the Procurve until you have mastered it! Getting the thing into corners and the adjusting the pole position to achieve the next stroke takes a bit of getting used to.

I remember a tool called the a*sbackwords but cant remember which trade it was used in although someone in golf called a club an a*sbackwards - the Procurve fits that to a tea the first time you try it! I would love to be a fly on the wall when you do tho!       

But I'm sure you will master it quickly and find it very usefull for a lot of situations 

JohnL

[Ian_Giles]

John,
I don't doubt yo ufor a second!

It does look  like a tool that will take same mastering, I'm on for a record week this week, so if I break my last best week I'll treat myself to it!


Ian

[JohnL]

 

[Moderator David@stives]

Ian

I have just done some timing

here goes

All done by trad

Set of patio doors  55 secs

Window with 2 panes 2' * 3'   35 secs

All included a touch of wiping , no window ledges were touched during these tests.

Dave

[Sir Squeaky]

Ian, I remember you timing me years ago on the far left window of Herbert Lewis when I was much slower.

Similar pane, maybe bigger.
I could reach it all off a pointer, and it was about 30 seconds.

....and that was years ago...... 

Slowcoach!

[Ian_Giles]

Dave,
I would agree with your timings, I'll time myself trad on some patio doors tomorrow, but on the window you described...well, you just described half the windows on my house!
And I've timed myself on those often...result?

Can't remember presicely, but very similar to your own result.

Squeaks,
 this is an easy one to sort out, find me in town on Monday morning when you get your paper.
I'll bet you will not beat my quickest time for that particular pane of glass by more than a second or two at best!!
I'm not talking WFP here either by the way...
You may think you are quick, but I think you will get a surprise.

Just bring your pole, your applicator and your squeegee....


Ian

[Sir Squeaky]

Squeaks,
 this is an easy one to sort out, find me in town on Monday morning when you get your paper.

No need Ian.

Like I said HL's window is similar or bigger, and I did that in 35 secs.

I'm no pole expert anyway, I hardly ever use it.
I'm talking about pointer work.

[captain lard]

I am getting a bit fed up of the constant wfp propoganda,here is another thread to extol its virtues,for me wfp has a couple of advantages over tradbut I am beginning to wonder why the wfp brigade feel the need to bleat on continually.Just becaus in this instance you say you can do a pane quicker wfp than trad does not convince me wfp is essential,deciding to get a wfp set up involves a lot more considration than this.I think if we are tying it all into time you need to factor in the amount of time you spend prepping and maintaining the wfp set up.

[groundhog]

Well said Captain Lard    Dave 55 seconds for a set of patio doors? I could half that time and wipe the sill!

[Pj]

Well said Captain Lard    Dave 55 seconds for a set of patio doors? I could half that time and wipe the sill!

You don't do yourselves any favours, sometimes.
That is why Dave posted what he did, you plonker!
Use your trad brain!
I doubt your claim of  27.5 seconds to do 2 patio doors, 13.75 secs per door!!  and I don't really care anyway.  I think Dave was making a different point.

love and peace
Pj

[groundhog]

Hey pj whats with the insults, I only post the truth, so don't get your knickers in a twist sonny. Chill out man and don't take things so seriously!!!

[Pj]

So you can't substatiate your claim then?

[groundhog]

What you talkin about pj

[Pj]

What you talkin about pj

Don't worry mate

I'm ok, your ok

[Moderator David@stives]

Groundhog

I timed myself at everyday working pace without rushing, If i was going for a record time i would of used 2 hands instead of one and probably changed my s technique to the "n" technique and would of shaved the time down considerably.

The point was i posted the time it takes working at a natural enjoyable chilled out pace.

I have done the 100 mph pace all day long in the past, the trouble is you just burn yourself out and fall asleep when you get home.

I would challenge anyone here to a race on a big job side by side doing trad, same as any other experienced guy .

We all fancy our chances in the speed stakes, so who will win in a trad race ?

Nobody knows

Dave

[rosskesava]

Hi Dave

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Today 2 of us have done 43 shops/pubs/offices. When the energies high and we're in 5th gear and organised, like in the morning, setting up wfp is a doddle.

By 4pm this afternoon it was easier just to put the BOAB on, get a pole if needed and do the job s-l-o-w. Rolling out the hose etc was too much effort. It was just easier to do the job with a mop and squeegie. The 100mph work speed was more like 5mph.

Trad can be mellow but for me, wfp never is. I'm always thinking about how much water is left and with wfp, somehow speed is always of the essence. Maybe that is just me.

Can't beat a lesuirely trad style done properly.

Also, ever noticed how many people watch shop windows being cleaned trad style? Especially if they are inside the shop?

ps I'm not knocking wfp in anyway at all but with trad you can do the job s-l-o-w like if you want to.

[Ian_Giles]

Ian, I remember you timing me years ago on the far left window of Herbert Lewis when I was much slower.

Similar pane, maybe bigger.
I could reach it all off a pointer, and it was about 30 seconds.

....and that was years ago...... 

Slowcoach!

That far left window is in fact smaller than the far left one on Peter Briggs, I remember timing you, but there was no way it was 30 seconds!!!

And there is very little chance of you being quicker than me on the Peter Briggs window either, you won't get remotely close to 30 seconds on it.

you think I am not that quick?

Check out below.


I've a couple of pics showing certain windows I did today, and I turned on the old stopwatch again.

This first one is an entrance to a Greggs cake shop.

Now this was cleaned as quickly as I could go, first off was the 'Turbo Terry' technique.
both panes done in 18 seconds, no detailing was required.

Second attempt was done in the normal cleaning mode of wash first and then squeegee off.

time taken, 22.55 seconds

Again, no detailing was required.

The average window cleaner would not do them this quickly, I certainly don't normally!!




This next one is the shop next door, and all done trad too.

I had a couple of goes at this because I made a few mistakes!!
But my timed runs that didn't need detailing, and included squeegeeing off the sills was....

66.87 seconds.

This one is easy enough to reach without using a pole, just a bit of a stretch for the first pass.
But I decided to add a pole into the equation....I've been working on pole techniques and have developed quite a quick method.
The time above was using this method.

Attempt 2 was without using a pole.

Time taken 70.05 seconds.

so I was marginally faster with the pole...even though a pole wasn't actually needed!!!

Another window cleaner happened by as I was atempting these timed cleans, 'Bloody hell,' he said, 'You won't get fat working at that pace!!'
Well I am fat...and I don't work at that pace! lol




final pic is a single pane of glass, the top edge of the window is approx 9ft off the ground, it is approx 5ft 8in wide, the pane itself is about 7ft 6in high.

This entire front is done by me using WFP, so I also timed myself on this pane with it.

Time taken WFP 30.67 seconds

Done trad (pole most certainly needed on this one)

The best time of 6 attempts was 29.65 seconds.

Slowest was 36 seconds and the fastest time was my second attempt! (slowest was the first though)



Now all trad attempts on all the work was done flat out hell for leather!
I'm not Terry Burrows, but I'm no slouch, but I must point out that these times were way quicker than my normal work rate, but my normal workrate with trad tools is still reasonably quick.

Squeaks claims times I could not possibly match (though I am going to have a go on the window he mentioned on Monday morning  )
And he reckons he's even faster now

I've given him the opportunity to show me and all the rest of you how quick he is, he may well make me look like a right old slowcoach!
but I don't mind, it'll be nice to have some comparisons for the identical work.

and nothing to do with WFP either!!!


Ian

[Sir Squeaky]

Ian, I'm not saying I'm particularly quick.

I just think the times you quote are slow.
I'm probably hardly any quicker than most on here, and slower than a few I'm sure.

I'm hardly likely to be that speedy with a 10" squeegee anyway.

My speed is over a whole job(or jobs) with all the other techniques and organisation that come into it.
I've never claimed to be exceptionally quick actually squeegeeing.

But I ain't slow that's for sure....

[Ian_Giles]

Ian, I'm not saying I'm particularly quick.

I just think the times you quote are slow.
I'm probably hardly any quicker than most on here, and slower than a few I'm sure.

I'm hardly likely to be that speedy with a 10" squeegee anyway.

My speed is over a whole job(or jobs) with all the other techniques and organisation that come into it.
I've never claimed to be exceptionally quick actually squeegeeing.

But I ain't slow that's for sure....

rog,
You are often banging on about how quick you are, or how much faster you are now, while I will agree that how your organise yourself on a job is vital, on an average house there will still only be 5 moves of the ladder, it isn't that that will shave off 5 minutes from the time you take to clean a house...

You think those times are slow?

I beg to differ, those times are quick, way quicker than you or most others would do in the course of your normal working day.

It is only a bit of fun Roger, seek me out Monday morning (early) and have a go yourself, I did it using a 14inch squeegee and applicator, you are wecome to use my squeegee blade (but not the swivel lock handle as that is part of my technique).

You made a comment on that other thread, the guy using the procurve pole? and reckoned you could do that window faster than him, I reckoned you wouldn't!
If you want to use your old pointer thats fine, I have it in the back of the van.

I'll bet Tosh would also be up for a similar challenge too, I think it would be interesting to compare us all...just ordinary working window cleaners....

Ian

[Terry_Burrows]

 ;Dif you went 2 handed on any of those windows shown,you would slash all those times by half,have a go ???and you would not have to go mad

[Ian_Giles]

Hi Terry,

On the first set yes, and with a little practice I can do them quicker of course.
2 handed I was several seconds faster.
I have some windows that are the perfect height and size for 2 handed practice, I've not timed myself on them yet though, but I can fly through them.

don't think I could ever get anywhere near your pace though, not even close.
Watching you in person do those competition windows is an education, incredibly fast....but then, you are the world record holder!!


Ian

[JM123]

guys would you listen to yourselves!!  23.54 secs to do this and 77.14542452secs to do that!  Honestly, what is this, qualifying for the grand prix??  WHO CARES if it takes 1.325214114 secs longer to clean a pane of glass with the thingymejigger technique than the waddeyamacalit technique??

[Pj]

Careful....you'll be locked if you go 1.0000002% off topic!


Unless, of course you are Tosh or Squeaky!  Then you can say what you like! :

I'm just glad I can still make a living cleaning windows, however I do it, I'm looking for the safest easiest way.
I used to think, the higher, you climb, the faster you are, the more you make...etc...
You can't take it with you you know!

[Ian_Giles]

Actually its quite good fun testing yourself against the clock!

Because of all the trad this WFP that, I've beed stopwatching myself all over the place comparing times.

Per window you have to go some to beat WFP with trad tools, but having said that, in terms of pure speed trad will always be quicker.
But in terms of your normal workrate, WFP is quicker.

Today I did the same test as David@St I'ves.

UPVC patio doors, not big ones but the pair were 5'8" across.

Time taken for a normal clean = 42 seconds, a bit of detailing and a wipe of the sill.

Just a normal sort of pace, but not slow.

Done at pace the normal way, ie, wet both panes briskly with applicator, then squeegee off both panes, squeegee sill, and detail where needed.

2nd time was done at pace, as fast as I could go, same method.

time taken 19 seconds.

3rd attempt was done the two handed technique, again, as quickly as I could.

Time for both panes = 13 seconds

Though I'd have had time added were I in a competition! there was some detailing needed!! (not much though)

Now for anyone that wants to stand there for an hour or two practicing they will get way quicker than that.

On this house I first did it all WFP, they only have it done once a year, I only do it because they are a commercial customer (weekly) and it is a local house so I don't mind.
So it was a pretty deep kind of clean.

forgot about the timing thing until after I had started.

But I did time myself on the downstairs rear of house.

Patio doors
back door
dining room window
2 kitchen windows

time taken to virtually do an initial clean with WFP including very thorough wash of frames and sills.

4 minutes 40 seconds.

I then re-did it trad, didn't touch the frames but did treat it as a clean of dirty windows, ie, I washed glass right up to edges, ergo, needed detailing afterwards.
Sill cleaned too.

Time taken = 4 minutes 10 seconds.

but that didn't include the frames.

Were it a monthly repeat clean I'd have lopped the best part of a minute from that time.

But WFP on a monthly repeat would only have been about 2 minutes.

Now if those windows were treated competitely then trad would have been quicker still

I know it is sad, but I'm really enjoying picking certain windows to time myself on (so long as the customer isn't watching 

you can't just 'let rip' with WFP, but with trad you can really unleash and go for it.

now do you think I have bigged up trad or WFP here?? Or have I bigged them both up??
You decide




Ian


Ian

[Sir Squeaky]

It's called "Ammo for Squeaky" Ian.

Nah, I can't be bothered until someone rams it down my throat again. :

[rosskesava]

This Thursday I'm going to time each of the days commercial jobs.

Next Thursday I'm going to reverse everything and do the trad work wfp, and the wfp work trad, where possible - there's no way I'm doing 2nd and 3rd floors trad, and time it all.

I'm curious.

[JohnL]

.
   yawn!

JohnL

[rosskesava]

yawn!

Er.... is that from the thread or from what I posted?

I did think that what goes into a sucessfull business is so much more than just cleaning the windows at speed.

I spend so much time orgnising things that even a 50% increase in speed wouldn't actually make much difference.

Now if we could decrease costs by 50% or increase prices by 50% or both - WOW.

Getting good prices for the work done is to me much more important. How that work is organised and how to fit it in with the daily work is efficiency. The time spent window cleaning is often a lesser part of the total day's time.

Still, I am curious about the trad and wfp thing. I reckon that a lot of shops we do could not be done quicker wfp. I just cannot see it. Jump out van, open the back, put belt on, grab a pole if needed, wet the mop and you are off. From stopping to being working, 20 seconds maybe? 30 at most? For a 2 minute or less job?

Still, I'm going to find out. Time and motion is always a good excercise every so often anyway.

[Moderator David@stives]

Ross

Have you got a van now

Dave

[rosskesava]

Nope.

If I wrote 'hearse' instead of 'van' I would have to explain. If I wrote that we use a hearse as a van, some on this forum wouldn't take me seriously. I have this deep down compulsion to be taken seriously as I am a serious person.

As in....

'Jump out hearse, open the back, put belt on, grab a pole if needed, wet the mop and you are off'.

Ok.

One of our work vehicles is a hearse. 

What better vehicle for carrying loads of equipment? Other than an ex Army Chieftan tank (but heavy on fuel with 2 times 4.2 litre engines and weighing 65 tons) or an ex fire engine?

Anyway, I will be doing my time and motions studies.

[JM123]

ex fire engine??  Now you have me thinking - the bad boy pumps on them could run 2 poles no prob!!!  Plus they have an onboard 4000ltr tank am I right ??

[rosskesava]

I did look at buying an ex fire engine but the insides are removed before it goes on sale.

The other problem was the weight of the vehicle, 8 tons, and the engine was 9.2ltr.