[gordons]

Why does evrone on here except me believe that price cutting is wroing? Look at companys like Asda and Tesco they always try to undercut. If you think your customers will stop you if someone else offers them cheaper or at the same price but a higher quality then i would advise you to quit window cleaning now.

[P @ F]

Well i have only been on here less than a week and i reckon i could answer your question ........ If everybody went around doing a cheaper job than the last man then we would all end up doing it for naff all , if you dont want to earn much money then crack on .......
BUT PLEASE DONT COME TO PLYMOUTH .......

         Rich    P @ F

[Ray Pickering]

Price cutting is no good to anybody!!

It's like what's been mentioned on here loads of time.

Would you rather do 10 houses for £5 or 10 houses for £10

You undercut & you will be working for 8hrs for the same money as working 4hrs.

Continue price cutting & your going to work some very long days for rubbish money

Don't forget you get no holiday or sick pay etc;

The big boys like Asda etc; have a turnover of millions & sell certain goods as a lost leader to draw customers in store.

Ray.

[gaza]

RAY :YOUR GETTING THE DRIFT NOW ARNT YOU PAL. TESCO AND THE REST HAVE LOSS LESDERS ,We only have loss of money.my friend the chepo w/c has been warned that if he takes work from the other window cleaner anymore 5 ladfs who work for him will pay a visit,He also says it totally wrong what hes done to me,but wonder if the bloke with a gang of 5 will say its wrong what Im going to do to the chepo w/c { tell you when we meet again { know his first name now /know his mobile / no the exact address he lives the only thinhg I dont know now is his last name got someone on that case, then dhs and hse gets phone calls ,he employs young lad trying to find out his name to try and protect him from the wrong working practices hes working in ie no employees liability,no safety proceedures. we will see whos smart
 gaza

[Thecleanerservice]

Gaza,
I like what I read about you.  you seem like a grafter, but your posts??
Are you Italian?  You work for the Mafia??  The Mob??  I know you're ahead of me because you use wfp..bigger earner than me,  so respect... but explain!!!....What is bugging you?
I'm only a trad W/c so what do I know?
I think you mean Tesco etc. use "lost leaders".  In other words, they will stand a loss on one product to draw you to another, because they know if you buy the second product they make even bigger profit.
Is someone undercutting you?  Squeezing you out?
No good that stuff.
I guess you've heard about the two tramps sitting on the park bench...One says to the other, "I thought I was giving the best discounts in town!"
Price wars are bad news.  Healthy competition should be about helping one another.
Who are these guys that are annoying you?  They need educating.
Pj

[Mike_Boxall]

As others have said, supermarkets do appear to undercut each other all the time but they keep making more and more money by offering other higher margin products.

It's OK to charge £4 for windows if you're also getting regular high value extras such as conservatories or facias.

What's wrong is when you're only getting £4 for windows and nothing else.

Regards

Mike

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

if you continue to price cut (like tescos etc) it's you and your living that will suffer in the long run,

DON'T DO IT!

The other day i was asked for a qoute for a 3 bed semi
i told the customer it would be £9

she replied "my old w/c was only £5"

where is he now? packed in ofcourse, not making a living
probally started under-pricing others.

remember..... it's easy to start off with a low price but not so easy to put them up to a realistic price at a later date.

jay

[Thecleanerservice]

There is no point comparing window cleaners with Tesco.  Huge supermarket chains can afford to price cut as much as they like.  They have so much money in the bank, they are the bank.  They own the market, they control the suppliers, the end product just keeps the whole thing turning over, they can't lose.  But when Mr Cohen (Tesco) first started on his own he had to make it where he could.  You could say he got lucky.
We don't really have a product, we're a service, keep the service good and charge accordingly.  Don't be fooled Supermarkets are not cheap.  Ask your wife if the bill has gone down in the last 5 years!
Pj

[Ray Pickering]

PJ.
You must have been on another planet if you missed Gaza's other thread! 

The topic went on forever (it seems)
The man's lost hundred's of pounds to these scumbags undercutting his prices--he's got to almost start again!

As you rightly say fair competition is healthy competition but not the way this man has lied to Gaza's (ex) customers--but like Gaza has said this man can't last.

Gaza is probably seeking revenge--would'nt you.

Regards Ray.

[Thecleanerservice]

I apologize Ray.  And especially to Gaza.  Thats what comes of not knowing the full story.  If Gaza has had to deal with that kind of ruthlessness - credit to him for picking up and getting going again, probably a better man than me.  I don't want to upset any genuine guys on here.  From the help I've read there is a good comeraderie on here.  out there in the street I try to be that way too.  If I call where another W/c has been I tell the client I don't take work off others because i don't want them taking work off me.  If customer drops them, then they'll probably drop me - so far not too much bother.  but not everyone thinks that way I agree, and I don't want them on my patch, so if I've spoken out of turn sorry.  Hope the scumbags get their come-uppance.  Keep going gaza
Pj

[williamx]

Gaza

If you want to know his surname and you have his address, then check the local voting list which will have the full names of anyone at that address.

[williamx]

Gordons

I think everyone on this forum believes that the price of the job has to be correctly priced, to give their customers valve for money.

But if you believe that if is fair to undercut some cleaner, so you can get his work then I think you are wrong.

It is also wrong for the customers concerned. Some will go to the cheapest priced cleaner but when that cleaner either moves on or goes out of business because he is not earning enough to live on, where does that customer then get a window cleaner, because if they were my customers, and they left me for someone who had undercut me, then I would not take them back on my list.

At the moment there are more customers out there who are looking for a decent window cleaner than there are window cleaners.

So why start a price war.

[Ray Pickering]

PJ.

Apologies accepted mate.

It's now more than obvious you had no idea about Gaza's predicament

Sorry if i seemed to attack you on your opinions, but like us all he's got a family to feed & pay the bills etc;

You sound like a genuine bloke with feelings--so all the best to you PJ. hope business booms.

Regards Ray.

[Paul Coleman]

I apologize Ray.  And especially to Gaza.  Thats what comes of not knowing the full story.  If Gaza has had to deal with that kind of ruthlessness - credit to him for picking up and getting going again, probably a better man than me.  I don't want to upset any genuine guys on here.  From the help I've read there is a good comeraderie on here.  out there in the street I try to be that way too.  If I call where another W/c has been I tell the client I don't take work off others because i don't want them taking work off me.  If customer drops them, then they'll probably drop me - so far not too much bother.  but not everyone thinks that way I agree, and I don't want them on my patch, so if I've spoken out of turn sorry.  Hope the scumbags get their come-uppance.  Keep going gaza
Pj

PJ.  With Gaza, it wasn't simply that some guy undercut him on about £800 worth of work.  Ok it's a free market and the ethics of that are up for negotiation.  The biggest problem, in my view, was that the guy went around saying that Gaza had quit window cleaning.  I've had people try that one on a few of my customers over the years too.  I didn't lose any though as I make sure they all have my contact details.
When I first started in 1991, a window cleaner told me to spread my work around in case anyone came around undercutting.  That way, if I lost some work, it wouldn't hurt too much.  Sound advice too.  I have work up to 9 miles to the East of where I live, 10 miles to the North and 7 miles to the West.  I have none to the South because that was my original work and the prices were so rubbishy (I didn't know better then) that I gave that away a few years ago.  I wouldn't have had the cheek to ask money for it.  The guy was delighted.  It was about £500 worth of work mostly every 6 weeks.  The rates were rubbish but it gave him a start to build on.

[mark dew]

Can't access electoral roll anymore for free at the library. You can buy a CD with that and much more besides but it was 250+ quid a couple of years ago. You can go online a to access it but you have to buy credits to search though. Try www.192.com.
As for price cutting, why cut your own throat?
I suspect its mostly people who are just starting out and  like myself, had a rough guide to charge per window but assumed all windows are equal. I charged a fiver for a conservatory roof if i was asked to clean one while i was there. I charged 20 for similar a week ago. Better to educate by putting them in touch with a forum like this.
Better still, i have found that people who are unhappy with their existing cleaner can't wait to tell you why as soon as you see them. When i hear that i decline to even give a quote saying i'd rather not tread on anyones toes. If they were that unhappy with their window cleaner then they wouldn't have one, is how i see it.
If you really can make a living by being cheaper then good luck to you.
Though i think you're making a rod for your own back.
If you are quoting intentionally cheaper to pick up jobs that have W/C already then you are bound to cause bad feeling at the very least.
I personally refuse to live my life looking over my shoulder.

[www.mrgutters.co.uk]

lets say in the space of one month you lost half your customers , because 10 window cleaners all had the same viewpoint as you and nicked your customers, lets say you earned 1500 a month then all of a sudden you are taking 750 home we would all be annoyed ,, and so would you , its not about bthe money its more morals.

shawn

[Walter Pole]

Surely it's just business..not good business, but it happens.  Maybe I am fortunate in my town there is a real shortage of window cleaners and I am now turning business away because I don't want to work any harder than I do already.  Maybe for Gazza he is faced with an over-supply of w/cs and so should consider expanding into other areas, like patio cleaning, gutters and facia boards, car valeting etc.  Point I am making is to adjust the business to suit the market conditions in a particular area.

[Trevor Knight]

If you have to steal work from fellow window cleaners by cutting their price then that says alot about you and your ethics. We are all trying to make a living and unless I am wrong, as far as I know not every single house in the UK has a window cleaner. DONT be lazy, try the next door neighbour and don't sell yourself cheap, further more, leave other window cleaners work alone!!!!!

[Walter Pole]

You are right Trevor, treat others as you would hope to be treated.  I never underprice, if I canvass and a householder says they already have a w/c I say that's great and go.  If they then say but how much do you charge I also say it's OK you already have a window cleaner I am not going to take someone else's work.

[windows_chepstow]

Why does evrone on here except me believe that price cutting is wroing? Look at companys like Asda and Tesco they always try to undercut.

Gordon,

I don't think you're talking about reducing your prices for existing customers who're happy with your work and what you already charge them.  Unless you're bonkers that is.

You're either saying you'd be happy to charge less than an area's going rate; or; you'd undercut another window cleaner to get his/(her) business.

In all three scenarios, the only winner is the customer; until you tire of working so cheaply; feel you can't up your price and dump them in favour of more lucrative business. 

So even the customer loses out in the end.

Gordon, are you in the process of building up a new round?  If you are, price at least what you think is the going rate.  At least.  Many here would say 'price higher'.  But I know what it's like when you've bills to pay, the wolf is at the door and you're desperate for work.

The Yellow Pages lady told me that if a potential customer goes to the trouble of looking through the Yellow Book and phoning you, you're pretty much guaranteed to have a 'keen customer'. 

The same goes, I expect, for potential customers who grab you on the street.

So don't price to low, mate.  You and your customers will both end up in a lose-lose situation when you dump the lot of them and get a job in a factory, because you couldn't make ends meet with window cleaning.

PS.  I've found I received  little work from the Yellow Pages.  So that's not the answer to building up a round in itself.

[Walter Pole]

Tosh, about 50% of my enquiries come from yellow pages, just a free lineage add, but because I am AMR window cleaners and get the first call. (AMR doesn't stand for anything its just and 'A' for the yellow pages)

[windows_chepstow]

I to am 'ABC Window Cleaning'; so I could be in the first lot of window cleaners in the books.  ('They say the first and last entries do the best.)

But honestly, I get very few enquiries via the phone books.  I'm also in Thompson Local and our local Residents Handbook (which has been the cheapest and best).

The majority of the new work I take on comes from word of mouth or just getting nabbed in the street.

[gaza]

MAY I REPLY: This w/c  has two other lads with him so carnt get near him at 50 I CAN STILL  tango a 20/26 yr old BUT 3 OF THEM NO. I KNOW HIS ADDRESS,HIS MOBILE,HIS FIRST NAME ,
nearly got his last name from the postman but he stopped at last moment saying he worked for the queen and couldnt pass on that information, when collected a full name,,and everything else address,let the battle comence.

social security,tax office and hse will all recieve the information Ive recieved through different channels{If your going to do them do them good}

work this out 3 of them poached by various lies 800 squid of work 3oo squid each a month wouldnt even feed a church mouse.getting payment from somewhere else eg social hes two kids of blond hair blue eyes both lads play football.KNOW A LOT ABOUT HIM HUH!

NOW iM NOT BOTHERED IF HE HAS A FALL and serious injury is incured,what I worry about is the poor 16 yr old whos having to go up the ladders with no safety equipment attached
to the ladders.

Im no mug and will return bigger stronger leaner and meaner
just put all my other customers up 50p to bait him to come deeper into my round were ABOUT AT ONE TIME 5/8 WINDOW CLEANERS WORK TOGETHER,they ave all been told how this jerk works, cum on,bring it on. we all get on no tit for tat between us thats how it should be,we warn each other about ex customers so when approached by them we are forwarned, nice family atmosphere each one a gentleman. they are ready and waiting ice cream wars will have nothing on this.

dont want it to happen but put yourself in my place all of a sudden you wake up and one third of your round has been stolen,kids to feed ,bills to pay etc if your not fuming,your a mouse [squeak squeak}

gaza

[dai]

The Oil companys are making billions. Do you see them fighting each other to give us cheaper fuel at the pumps?
I was talking to a wc today, he was working in  a close where I do 26 of the 35 houses. He and his mate had travelled 4 miles to service an old customer of his who had just moved in. He charged her £4. He said "I don't want to make a fortune, just enough to get by" I'm begining to think that some wc's are in the game because they are too thick to do ought else. Dai

[mark dew]

" I KNOW HIS ADDRESS,HIS MOBILE,HIS FIRST NAME ,
nearly got his last name from the postman but he stopped at last moment...."

Gaza,  www.192.com
just put in the address and see who comes up. Just checked site and you can get free credits (5) i think, if you put yourself on a mailing list.
And no i'm not plugging the site, just found it very useful over the years.
Tailor-made for a situation like yours (which is why i was told, you can't go to the library and look anymore).


"social security,tax office and hse will all recieve the information Ive recieved through different channels{If your going to do them do them good}"

Don't agree with this but if you save a life i suppose........

Chartermarque got it right i reckon. No offence gaza, but you have the equipment and you sound like a grafter. Shift that focus towards a new opportunity.

Anyway, i read your post about you being attacked with golf clubs. Unless the other window cleaning team live together as well, you will get your chance.

[P @ F]

This is a popular one isnt it !
I have to say ,  when i first started up my flyer read "all prices beaten"
Bad move or what , i saw the error of my ways and changed it , it wasnt because i am a bad man but i just needed to get my foot in the door .
Luckily i didnt stand on anybodys toes , all i ended up doing was working for nothing , cos after it became apparent that good wc's are hard to find where i am .
I then sent out more flyers doubling the price i originaly quoted , i only lost one customer , since then my take has obviously doubled , and the guy who dropped me has since buckled and asked me to restart !
 
Moral of the story , cant think of one cos i drunk far too much beer !

DONT UNDERCUT ITS BAD FOR THE ECONEMY  {GORDAN BROWN}

I AM DRUNK      , CHEERS   RICH P @ F

[gaza]

P" F GOOD JOB YOU PUT UP YPUR PRICES OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE DRINKING LEMONADE
Ive learned one lesson,dont be so stupid next time got right caught with pants down,changing all my customers over to w/f/p, fell a few weeks behind but had told my customers I maybe late the next time around and the reason why put my prices up {three year price rise} this allowed scum to nip in between and tell my customers that I had finished w/c and under cut me by 1.50p.

mistake no 2/ some off them didnt know my contact phone no
I  cleaned the windows then put a windows have been cleaned today card through. This came about because when I first started I bought some cards from the w/c suppliers that did the job and still use them to this day, will be getting some printed when I can afford it .

 I JUST HOPE NONE OF YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH WHAT IM GOING THROUGH.

SOME OF THE BEST advice has been to spread your work around {very good talking}mine was within 1 mile  from start to finish.
if you would like some free advice on how to do things wrong better than anyone else Im your man

things got that bad thought of starting an emergancy w/c round {someone whos ill rings me up and  I go to do their work ] just till they were back on their feet. Then the cape crusader flew back to his nest . All i would need is a campsite nearby got desres camping equipment wouldnt have minded  having a bash at 1 squid a window down London work for a wk ave a week off.
gaza

[Paul Coleman]

P" F GOOD JOB YOU PUT UP YPUR PRICES OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE DRINKING LEMONADE
Ive learned one lesson,dont be so stupid next time got right caught with pants down,changing all my customers over to w/f/p, fell a few weeks behind but had told my customers I maybe late the next time around and the reason why put my prices up {three year price rise} this allowed scum to nip in between and tell my customers that I had finished w/c and under cut me by 1.50p.

mistake no 2/ some off them didnt know my contact phone no
I  cleaned the windows then put a windows have been cleaned today card through. This came about because when I first started I bought some cards from the w/c suppliers that did the job and still use them to this day, will be getting some printed when I can afford it .

 I JUST HOPE NONE OF YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH WHAT IM GOING THROUGH.

SOME OF THE BEST advice has been to spread your work around {very good talking}mine was within 1 mile  from start to finish.
if you would like some free advice on how to do things wrong better than anyone else Im your man

things got that bad thought of starting an emergancy w/c round {someone whos ill rings me up and  I go to do their work ] just till they were back on their feet. Then the cape crusader flew back to his nest . All i would need is a campsite nearby got desres camping equipment wouldnt have minded  having a bash at 1 squid a window down London work for a wk ave a week off.
gaza

Gaza. I have sent you an email with a file attachment.  It shows how I lay out my domestic window cleaning bills.  You can't edit it as it is a .pdf file (Adobe Acrobat). If you would like me to make up something similar for you, I could substitute your name, address etc and leave the layout pretty much the same.  Maybe you would want the bit deleted where I say that I don't return to collect money and to send a cheque (I say this as your work seems to be all close to your home).
If you want to discuss the layout, I could adjust my own design to suit you and email the file to you.  Obviously you would be responsible for printing it out yourself.  Mine prints out as 2-up on an A4 sheet which I guillotine in half.  I make them that big because too many customers never remembered seeing them in their mail.  I believe that if they are too small they can easily be lost in the junk mail leaflets and dumped in the bin.
Anyway, let me know if you would like me to make up a file for you and I will get on to it for you.  That's what you get for being helpful to me a while back   

[windows_chepstow]

Shiner,

Could you e-mail one to me; or upload it into the 'Documents to Download' section.

I think mine could do with a re-vamp.

Cheers.

[Paul Coleman]

Shiner,

Could you e-mail one to me; or upload it into the 'Documents to Download' section.

I think mine could do with a re-vamp.

Cheers.

OK Tosh.  I'll do it by email as it has my name/address and loads of other stuff on there too.  It's in .pdf so non-editable.  Same goes for you.  If you want something similar let me know and I'll see what I can whip up.
I'm wondering if it's possible for me to post a version of it (without my details) to "Documents to Download" folder in a form that is editable.  The original is in .pub format (MS Publisher) and I convert to .pdf by 3rd party utility (PrimoPDF).
I will look into this over the next few days.  In the meanwhile, check your email Tosh.

[gaza]

thanks : SHINER: will have to wait till neighbour comes and has a LOOK CUS STILL GOT PROBS WITH MY EMAIL. can pick it up at my mrs work place [her boss has to be out though]

 gaza

[Londoner]

Its a fair point to say that in most cases of undercutting that I've come across its not so much the prices as the motives behind the undercutting that causes the trouble.

Yet I am the first to go shopping around for the things I buy. I have just been charged a fortune for some relatively minor repairs to my wife's car and I won't be going back there again.

Is it double standards? My wife shops at tesco and we buy most of the kids clothes from Primark these days (mine too) so why can't our customers do the same for their windows?
We wouldn't like it but it is a natural process.

What we know and the customers don't is that undercutters never last and eventually always disappear.

Shiners comments about coming to work in London for a week hit a nerve with me. We used to have a crew that worked round here ( North West London suburbs) that came from South Wales. Was it Norman Tebbit that said "Get on your bike?"

[Paul Coleman]

Shiners comments about coming to work in London for a week hit a nerve with me. We used to have a crew that worked round here ( North West London suburbs) that came from South Wales.

Wasn't me guv, honest    .  It was Gaza who said about working in London.

[Londoner]

Yes you are right, sorry about that. But don't worry -You are all welcome, loads of work for everybody.

On a more serious note I was sorry to read about gazza's problems. When its happening to you its not funny.

Just a small comment which might help gazza. If you go to the local library they will have a copy of the electoral roll and that gives the names of everyone living at an adress . I've used it many times.

The other advise about spreading your work around is also sensible for lots of reasons, not just this one.  Gradually an area can go a bit stale, and you go a bit stale and a fresh start in a better location can motivate you  to start trying  again.

[gaza]

Vince: im a spurs fan and my grandad was a bow lad does that qualify me to come to London? aving a lauff

[Londoner]

A Spurs Fan  ?      I did hear they had one. 
No seriously,.even Spurs fans are welcome.

Actually I am continually amazed at how far people travel to work in London.
In my "real" job I am a London Black cab driver. I only went back to window cleaning part time because of the health issues around sitting for ten hours a day in all that traffic.

I know taxi drivers who live in Norfolk, Worthing, several in Bournmouth area, one in Normandy and two in Spain. They all travel to London to work.

I'm told that the building trade in London is being ripped apart by workers from Poland and Lithuania who commute back and forwards on Ryanair and Easyjet.

I fear its only a matter of time before they discover window cleaning. Coming back to the subject of this topic, we can't take prices for granted.
Price cutting is usually associated with someone trying to muscle in on another cleaners round but it doesn't have to always be  so.
I think this forum has give a lot of guys the confidence to put their prices up, its probably its greatest sucess.

Round here there are still more windows than window cleaners but I don't believe it will always be the case.

[The Bear]

Price cutters welcome in my area, recently 6 window cleaners finished, one called Mick from Chesterfield.

Would be glad for someone to take out the low payers so I can concentrate on high payers.

If anyone interested e-mail me.

[The Bear]

Come on, if you work for peanuts, come to my area.

[rosskesava]

I couldn't care less about anyone who undercuts on prices.

Window Cleaning is not like buying a tin of heinz beans or something like that where you get  the same product regardless of price.

Most people are become attached to their window cleaner and anyway, my veiw is that there are always those who will pay for quality and reliability.

In 5 years we've lost jobs for various reasons (but never through bad workmanship) but never to someone who is cheaper apart from once and that person was an under priced job anyway.

Cheers