[Moderator David@stives]

please can any one show me a spot frree window because i am not !00% convinced that wfp can deliver spot free . i have been on a course and practiced with my own system. i also have seen 4  local w\cS and i have had a chat with them and looked at there work ,one told me they are good enough to look through, I dont want to stir up a hornets nest .
I am going to use wfp on upstairs jobs ,safety reasons,and just accept the results.
i Know there people on here who can get spot free ,but unless i actually see it ,i will just have to trust that you can ,at least the squeegie is not without its faults .will some one locally or not to far  away ,who can do spot free ,take me out with them ,so i can actually see the results for myself
dave

[P @ F]

HI dave,I have had wfp for 3 days now , the firrst 2 i thought i was the man but today was a different story , i had spotting quite a lot , i do up and down .
At the end of the day customers will just have to not have the finish they used to have , due to wfp , im sure there are people out there that can get it spotless but i reckon it all comes with time .
If you get on well with them then im sure they will understand that it is a new system to you and it will take a bit of time to get it right.
How long have you been on wfp ?

  Rich P @ F 

[Davindo Cleana]

I couldn't convince myself let alone my first customer, I was so sceptical, but it all seems well -
three rules i follow are:
tds must be 4 or less
use loads and loads of water - as in silly amounts - on the first cleans -  
spend most of the time doing the horizontal top
result - no spots (so far)
Dennis Taylor showed me the light and I duy followed

[windows_chepstow]

Today I did a bunch of new cleans that the previous window cleaner had done with a WFP before dropping the lot of them.

(Matt; for the Chepstow lot).

The customers I spoke to said they were sceptical at first, but really liked the job.  It was just a pity he stopped comming.  One old lady said she'd noticed her windows stayed cleaner for longer.

Then we arrived with ladders and squeegie and charged them more.  But they all seemed to like us.

Anyway, this is very similar to this thread:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=7935.0

[Roy Harding]

When I first went wfp I had a small 200gal per day R/O it had a 1ltr di cartridge, and this would last only 5 days and the tds would rise over night. And I had a few problems with spoting.

Now with a larger R/O  filltering in to tank on van, and just before it comes on to the window it goes through a large d/i colum and tds is allways 0.0. I have not had problems with spoting ever since.

I did a large house today very hot conditions, when I did inside it was perfect.

In fact 2 window cleaners who were not to sure about wfp, came and inspected a large contract I do and both now have wfp.

If you have a small r/o buy a d/i colum to polish water at last min, and rinse well.

Roy 

 

[thewindowcleaner1]

I,ve been using Wfp for over 3 years and I still tell all new customers

with it being the first clean you may get a dirty run or some spots after I,ve gone due to the fact that I've washed all the crap of the top of the frames, if this does happen you can

a) give me a call and I'll come straight back and redue the windows.

b) tell me next time and I'll knock something of the price for the inconveniance.

to date after all this time I've had one person that mentioned it didn't want any discount though as she was pleased thet the frames are deing cleaned, one person sack me because of spots(it later turned out that the fella had caused the spots when washing the car in the drive but the windowcleaner and his new gizmo got the blame)

Did a first clean on a new job yesterday checked some of the windows before I left and found that some first floor had runs on them so I contacted them today and arranged to return on Sat to redue ( the runs were due to the rinse not moving 12 months of rubbish)(made a special effort on this one charging £225 per clean worth the extra effort this job only came to me because I use WFP (don't like ladders on grounds)

Alan

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

i only use wfp on the tops,
i never get complaints about spots (mind you i never get to see the results)

but i often get compliments about clean frames and windows staying cleaner longer

[windows_chepstow]

What's the problem with a few spots anyway?  As long as the grime, cobwebs, spiders and muck is removed; who really gives a fat-WRACs pump about a few spots.  The window is still basically clean isn't it?  It's not like you've left the filth that builds up after six months of neglect.

And at the end of the day, if you turn up at the agreed frequency, provide a good service; shouldn't YOUR health and safety be more important than some 'spotty windows'?

And if you've got a customer who complains, even after you've explained your health and safety issues to them; bin 'em.  They obviously don't care about you or your family.  There's loads more decent ones out there.

Who was that recently posted that they 'received a letter telling them not to bother turning up with their WFP again because they found a 'proper' window cleaner'?  (Meaning one that uses ladders).  I'm still a 100% ladder user and even that made ME cross.

If they're going to be so fussy, drop them for the guy who uses B & Q ladders, who they don't see for three months at a time then turns up twice in a month; then only works till he makes £30 and then hits the pub.

Remember, some customers are NOT always right.

 

[Sir Squeaky]

What's the problem with a few spots anyway?

The point is Tosh that doing it our way doesn't leave spots or runs and it's the customer who's paying good money for it.
You can do a window from 15ft below it, but there's no substitute for being right in front of it and seeing what you've done.

Never get complaints, only praise.

Roger.

[windows_chepstow]

What's the problem with a few spots anyway?

The point is Tosh that doing it our way doesn't leave spots or runs and it's the customer who's paying good money for it.
You can do a window from 15ft below it, but there's no substitute for being right in front of it and seeing what you've done.

Never get complaints, only praise.

Roger.

Roger,

I agree.  The best way to clean a window must be with your nose close to it.  That is to leave a spick and span window.  No doubt about it.

But the safest way must be from the ground.  I've fallen from a first floor window and had a brown-trousers moment and some lumps and bruises.  You must've had similar, since you've been at it for around six years longer than me.

My point is; customers that require you to risk your health and safety, when you've got an alterative and viable method aren't worth the bother.  If after educating them, they still require you to risk yourself, then they're obviously low-lifes.  How many times have you been asked 'can you do my tops only?'  I never even bother giving these people a proper reply. 

I laugh, quote the same price I would for the whole house and walk off when they refuse.

My theory is:

Some people (rant mode now) dislike paying you to clean their windows.  If they had the guts to climb a ladder themselves; they would.  But they won't.  So they expect you to sweat - and risk yourself - so they can have clean windows.

A minority hate the idea you can make cleaning windows look easy, whatever the method.

There's loads of people wanting good, regular window cleaners out there.  Far more than supply.  Yesturday I dropped two of my customers (not today please types) and today naffed some bloke off who said his last window cleaner was £1.00 cheaper.  I couldn't even be bothered to discuss the reason why he hadn't turned up for 3 months; and I didn't want yet another 'new clean'.  I had a belly-full of them today.  So I just shrugged and walked off hearing 'Oh, so it's like that then is it?'

Yes, it is.

Once established, to a certain extent, we can pick and choose our customers. 

[24-7 S C Services]

Hi everyone,

My TD’s is 0 and if it rises above 0, I change my resin. I have never cleaned any windows with a TD’s rating above 0 and I firmly believe no one should. Although I do advise my customers, that there is a small chance of spotting on the first clean I have never had a complaint and I always go back the following day to check the results myself.

I have had one or two customers who have been sceptical about a wfp system, but once they have seen the results they are more than happy. All my customers comment on how clean their windows and frames are and wish they would have used me sooner.

I had a traditional window cleaner come up to me on Friday to watch the wfp at work and he was amazed at the finish that was left (spot free, first clean), however he did complain that I spent a long time on the house. Which I explained to him about the first clean and by taking my time, I am guaranteed a happy client.


Andrew

[AuRavelling79]

It was hot today wasn't it Tosh? I get less tolerent when I'm hot and bothered too!

Rather than me hi-jack this thread check out my "Happy to say no" thread.

[Ian_Giles]

To change things around a little.

A lot is being made of the fact that some spotting can occur with WFP, all very true, it can.
Now if you clean a window the trad way, (squeegee), try doing one when the the sun is at a low angle (Roger will know what I mean; the window you do in town? the paint shop?)
Now it has nothing at all to do with the sun with regards to cleaning it, but if it is at the right angle you will see squeegee kicks, lines and marks where you have detailed.
Do not kid yourself that you have done a perfect job, you haven't.

As Roger (Squeaky clean) will tell you, I am a good window cleaner and I think I always work to a pretty high standard.
There are one or two accounts I clean that I have gone back to cleaning trad, doing it with WFP I noticed that I couldn't quite get it right, I'd do the inside of this shop window (A Greggs shop in Caldicot (for the local guys)) and would notice some spots, this was on the next clean wherebye I would do the inside first rather than the outside (7am in the morning as against 4:45pm in the afternoon, getting goods laid out in the morning and the reverse in the afternoon)
So I went back to cleaning them trad.
The sun is now at a certain angle due to the time of the year, and now I am really struggling to get them perfect with trad, I always have to dodge back and forth picking up bits
But the upshot is that the job done with WFP was (is) considerably better with WFP than trad.
There are various reasons why you will get spotting, its mostly user error, particularly if it is on the type of windows where they will usually come up spotless.

So trad guys (and girls), don't kid yourselves that you are doing work that is top banana, there WILL be kicks from the squeegee, there WILL be marks from detailing, you WILL get lines from the ends of the squeegee.
And all of these tiny little faults will be  exacerbated if the light is coming through the glass at the wrong angle!

And just as some glass is a nightmare for the WFP'er so some of it is for the trad cleaner (Tosh, Roger, you have both done the Kings head, the window on the side? Ollie and Matt do it now, and they can't get it right either)
There will be some new georgian windows that are an absolute swine to clean the trad way, use a cut down squeegee and you will have no end of detailing to do, and there will always be marks.
Clean them with spray & buff with microfibre or scrim, or use a wet scrim/drim scrim you will always get smears.
Don't kid yourself that you won't, you WILL.

There will be times that even with ladder mitts you will mark the walls, damage the sills.
Your squeegee WILL mark the edges of certain styles of windows, or leave score marks in the paintwork.

A few spots from WFP?
I know what option I'll be sticking too


Mind how you go now

Ian

[Thecleanerservice]

No need to moderate

No bias whatsoever.

I clean windows for 18 years......No marks of any description left by me till next time I call...If there are I guarantee call back to rectify FOC.....Never...Never had to call back yet.
"Who you gonna call?"
 

[Thecleanerservice]

To change things around a little.

A lot is being made of the fact that some spotting can occur with WFP, all very true, it can.
Now if you clean a window the trad way, (squeegee), try doing one when the the sun is at a low angle (Roger will know what I mean; the window you do in town? the paint shop?)
Now it has nothing at all to do with the sun with regards to cleaning it, but if it is at the right angle you will see squeegee kicks, lines and marks where you have detailed.
Do not kid yourself that you have done a perfect job, you haven't.

As Roger (Squeaky clean) will tell you, I am a good window cleaner and I think I always work to a pretty high standard.
There are one or two accounts I clean that I have gone back to cleaning trad, doing it with WFP I noticed that I couldn't quite get it right, I'd do the inside of this shop window (A Greggs shop in Caldicot (for the local guys)) and would notice some spots, this was on the next clean wherebye I would do the inside first rather than the outside (7am in the morning as against 4:45pm in the afternoon, getting goods laid out in the morning and the reverse in the afternoon)
So I went back to cleaning them trad.
The sun is now at a certain angle due to the time of the year, and now I am really struggling to get them perfect with trad, I always have to dodge back and forth picking up bits
But the upshot is that the job done with WFP was (is) considerably better with WFP than trad.
There are various reasons why you will get spotting, its mostly user error, particularly if it is on the type of windows where they will usually come up spotless.

So trad guys (and girls), don't kid yourselves that you are doing work that is top banana, there WILL be kicks from the squeegee, there WILL be marks from detailing, you WILL get lines from the ends of the squeegee.
And all of these tiny little faults will be exacerbated if the light is coming through the glass at the wrong angle!

And just as some glass is a nightmare for the WFP'er so some of it is for the trad cleaner (Tosh, Roger, you have both done the Kings head, the window on the side? Ollie and Matt do it now, and they can't get it right either)
There will be some new georgian windows that are an absolute swine to clean the trad way, use a cut down squeegee and you will have no end of detailing to do, and there will always be marks.
Clean them with spray & buff with microfibre or scrim, or use a wet scrim/drim scrim you will always get smears.
Don't kid yourself that you won't, you WILL.

There will be times that even with ladder mitts you will mark the walls, damage the sills.
Your squeegee WILL mark the edges of certain styles of windows, or leave score marks in the paintwork.

A few spots from WFP?
I know what option I'll be sticking too


Mind how you go now

Ian

No need to moderate

No bias whatsoever.

I clean windows for 18 years......No marks of any description left by me till next time I call...If there are I guarantee call back to rectify FOC.....Never...Never had to call back yet.
"Who you gonna call?"
 

[/color]

[matt]

this is interesting

ive been WFP all the time now since last DEC, i still get the odd spot or run, but its only a machine, and if we are honest, its only windows

is this a careless attitude, some might say it is. personally i see it as the truth

Oh and if you speak to ANY of my punters, they will tell you how great the WFP is

WHY

2 reasons:

a. i am safe and sound and i get to go home at night the same way i left in the morning

b. the frames come up clean, now i dont clean the frame, but if you tell them the frames will be cleaner, they belive it, and its upstairs

[Ian_Giles]

Thecleanerservice,
I don't quite understand your dig about moderating there, but I knew someone would have to reply that they don't ever make mistakes!
You are wrong!! We ALL make marks on the glass! Most of the time you do not really notice them, but if you get the light at the right angle, and you are cleaning the inside you will see them.
Clean the inside of a pub window, smokey atmosphere, the tar will soon start to stick to the glass.
Go back after a couple of days and look at the glass, you will see that the tar and smoke particles will highlight every turn of your squeegee.
There is nothing wrong with this, you've done your job properly, but you have left a residue behind, and the tar will stick to it!!

I have been cleaning windows for over 20 years, and I also offer the same guarantee, and I have had no more than a handful of call backs, and most of those proved to be marks on the inside of the glass!

But ladders DO mark walls and windows, squeegee's WILL mark the beading on on some windows.

The point is, WFP or traditional, you won't always get it right, you are kidding yourself if you think you do!!

Regards,

Ian

[thewindowcleaner1]

You can please most of the people most of the time,
But you can't please all the people all the time...

[Davindo Cleana]

Matt - "now i dont clean the frame" - that's interesting - is that normal procedure cos I was just going to keep on doing the lot every time

[matt]

Matt - "now i dont clean the frame" - that's interesting - is that normal procedure cos I was just going to keep on doing the lot every time

no its not common practise, BUT i run the brush along the top of the GLASS it does clean that top beveled bead and thats it, i allways used to clean the GLASS ONLY the trad way, so why change ?? ?? ? ? and it means you stay away from those vents

[Thecleanerservice]

I'm studying carefully all the info I can on Wfp, because it has it's place...irrefutably.
apparently trad w/c will continue to have it's place for many years to come.
This thread is about leaving spots....I don't leave spots.
I clean the frames, I clean the vents, I wash the sills, I don't leave squeegee kinks, I don't do Pubs Let someone else spread the tar round the glass for a while.I do make mistakes, but as an old tradesman once said to me, "a skilled man is not someone who doesn't make mistakes, he is someone who knows how to work round the problem".  Practical bit of advice I haven't forgotten.
I'm sure there is an easy way round this spot problem.

Ian you are entitled to your opinion, and you state it strongly in your post.
I wouldn't want to be a Moderator, sets you up as a target.  My point? All in good humour, don't be too trigger happy with moderating others.  You may sometimes be the start of heated debate yerself.  No offense meant.

Trad W/c is here to stay.  So is Wfp.
What came first?  Chicken or egg.  Whatever...But you need both!

[Ian_Giles]

Oh the power, the power

And with graham us mods get a lot of practice.

As mods we have to adhere to the rules of the forum and ensure others do too, it isn't a wide open forum, but often the the replies deviate from the subject (as this one is doing so) because of triggers in a reply, someone will always make a comment outside the original question (the trigger) and then the replies start to spiral.
Mostly after a dozen or so replies the thread loses steam and gradually drops down the board, on other occasions it's like a grass fire on a windy day
And me & Tosh are the fire brigade
Sometimes a topic has to be locked, or a few replies deleted. or just a warning put on by one of us to drag the thread back 'On Topic'.
On this part of the board all threads must be window cleaning related, if they aren't then there is a good chance it will be deleted, and the same goes for replies too.
I would personally love to see an 'Any Other Business' board on the forum, but that ain't going to happen anytime soon, so until then Tosh and myself will do our best not to get to carried away with the red ink and the special hatchet we have both got for severing threads (I said threads...not heads )

And to drag my reply back 'on topic'; the longer you use WFP, the better you get at it, and spotting becomes less and less of a problem.

Once you have developed your skills to a reasonable standard (and that won't happen overnight) the overall standard of your work should be better than it would with trad.
But if you are not careful your results could well be awful!
It is easier to screw it up with WFP, but as you gather experience you well know the types of windows that will cause problems, or the types of glass.
The difficulty is walking away from a house and leaving all the windows wet, even now I still worry at times that I have done it right!!

Regards,


Ian

[Moderator David@stives]

just what i thought , so i am going to grit my teeth  and get on with it .

Dave
 

[matt]

just what i thought , so i am going to grit my teeth  and get on with it .

Dave
 

the only way to do it

practise a little on yours / family members and mates houses for a few cleans and you will get the hang of it

oh you could allways go on a course and watch how the pro's leave spots with a 3 K system  but thats a completely different discussion

[Thecleanerservice]

Keep up the good work Ian.
As you say nobody's perfect
FIRE!!

Notice "Smears & Dry blade lines" thread, Ian?
good one
Pj

[AuRavelling79]

I understand there are courses available to help you use a wfp properly.

I think David@St.Ives might be able to give you a considered opinion on such courses.