[Joe H]

Is it a bad thing having the agitator bringing up residue?

That residue will contain dirt particles that you want to get rid of.

and if the machine didnt lift them out to be vaccd away, some (but probably not all) will be sucked into your machine waste tank anyway.

[cleaningmaster]

Pete
as i said last night i was not directing my comments towards you in particular just in general.
Afterall i thought that this and other forums was for the purpose of airing their views, opinions and observations. If we had to watch what we said all the time, whatever happened to "Freedom of Speech"?

Oh by the way the word "Newbies" is what Derek uses to decribe himself in his posts, not by me.

Derek, just something else for you to ponder, another twist

If the RX20 is too big, have you thought about the RV360? it seems to have good reports from those who use them.
I am the same as Mark as i use a carpet brush for nearly all my jobs, but i have  slow speed rotary for the real manky ones.
As you know, these are similar to the machine that Andrew suggested.

Yes they are basic, old fashioned, etc, etc but thats no bad thing. Tried and tested.They are reliable, sturdy, good value (well under £1000) and very versatile,
You can....
Agitate carpets,
Bonnet clean,
low profile carpets,
Strip and clean Amptico / Hard floors,
Clean Stone floors,
Clean and Polish Wood floors,
Clean and Polish Marble floors.
What more do you want?

But its your money and your choice

Good luck with your choice.

Regards

Daryl

 

[Ken Wainwright]

Daryl

I don't mean to make this sound personal as what I am about to say is addressing some of your comments above, but also highlights how many of us will offer opinion on matters where we have no or little real world experience. And I include myself in that group.

Agitation is an integral part of the cleaning pie. The better the safe agitation, the better the job. I am not just refering to the amount of soil removed, but also the amount of alien fibrous material along with the enhanced finished appearance of the "lifted" pile.  You can also include in this the ease and speed of the rinse.

A T/M has a reduced need for pre-spray agitation as much of this is provided by the final rinse which will not only impact the carpet at elevated pressure but also in volumes much higher than any conventional portable could cope with.

However, although a porty user myself, I have worked also with colleagues' T/M's, both entry level and high end, and after carrying out our own field trials, came to the conclusion that CRB agitation in particular is beneficial to the overall cleaning and finished result and with lower water and running consumption/costs of the T/M. The trade off for this is the extra time (and hence cost) taken for agitation, but you do spend less time rinsing.

Finally, a rotary machine is a superb tool for agitation. I also use one of these myself. A soft brush isn't necessary as a stiffer polypropylene scrubbing brush, as recommended by Ron Tilley of Prochem, performs better. Also superb for agitation on these machines are various pads such as soft floor pads, microfibre and carpet skimming pads. Logic says that these shouldn't work, but you'll change your mind once you've tried them. However, extra care is needed when using a rotary on many residential grade  carpets in particular. It is very easy to "swirl damage" the pile. The IWS and since then Woolsafe do not approve of many rotary processes on wool pile carpets.  Rotaries can also be an absolute pain to carry upstairs.

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

[cleaningmaster]

Ken,
Thanks for a great reply.
As you have said we all have limited knowledge on all machines, and mine is CRB
machines. What i am really trying to do is to stop people like Derek from making another expensive purchase/mistake on a machine, that, does he really need?

Regarding the "swirl damage"caused by a roto machine, i would have to agree, that this can easily be caused by having the carpet too dry or more importantly the person on the end of the handles, is not trained.
Also this goes back to my earlier post, i`m sure that if a person buys a CRB with the wrong (to hard) brushes, and does not know any difference, could/would cause  damage to carpets.

Any machine you have to carry upstairs is a pain

Regards

Daryl
 

[JandS]

I have a powerbrush by Stimvac but quickly found that it was a pain to use in most domestics especially upstairs.
Find that a good carpet brush and wand are more than adequate for most houses.
Also thought that it was too aggressive on some carpets and tended to spoil the pile.
Now rarely use it even for commercials, find manual brushing far quicker.
Used to use it for both agitation and then extraction.

Regards
           John

[Jim_77]

Interesting debate   I have two lots of two pence worth to add

Firstly, regarding agitation causing shedding of fibre from an old piece of carpet.  The fibre is already loose, it isn't part of the carpet any more!  It has become broken off due to wear, and has just remained entangled in the "good" fibres.  You don't get this on newer carpets, obviously as long as you're not using too coarse a brush.

Secondly about the torsional effect of a rotary on a carpet's pile.  How many directions is the pad travelling in when it is in contact with the one tuft of a carpet?  One!  The only possible place a rotary-driven bonnet pad can be literally "twisting" a carpet tuft is slap bang in the centre of the bonnet.  But in this location, there is no pressure on the bonnet as most drive boards have a hole in the middle.  I'd think the most common mistakes during rotary cleaning that cause damage are not having the carpet damp enough for sufficient lubrication, and dwelling in one place for too long.

Having said all that, on a very new-looking carpet where the tufts are still fairly tightly twisted, I won't use a rotary or any mechanical agitation - partly because I don't want to cause any wearing problems, but also because generally if it's in that good a condition it isn't going to need the agricultural treatment to do the job.  Vacuum, pre-spray and a quick working in with a grandi-groomer is generally all that's required.

On a real minger, yes you're going to need to bring out the big guns.  As I've already posted elsewhere recently, I've scrubbed Axminsters with a stiff polyprop brush before.  The carpet is already half trashed so you're going to need to break a few eggs to make the omlette, aren't you?  It's all down to judgement and a bit of common sense - as long as you're ending up with a positive outcome for the customer, you're doing the job correctly.

[Buster Ingram]

You name it and I have used it from cylindrical brushes to  17” rotaries and I have to say it’s the look on the clients face that tells me which is the best to use.
As ken will tell you the cylindrical brush system is by far the best for raising the pile and removing the loose fibres, but in the customers eyes your thinning their carpets all they see is their carpet in your brushes when you have finished scrubbing in the pre-spray , and what a ball ache it is to remove from the bristles.
I know full well  from using my Host machine 10 years ago with the onset of One Step micro splitters.
I went on to using a rotary with all different brushes and pads and as some will tell you they are a pain to carry up stairs! Then came the orbital  Orick with its brush and pad system this I found more user friendly in domestic situation as it is more controllable than a conventional rotary machine in confined spaces, agitates the pile better without removing too much loose pile and is more universal then a cylindrical brush  so far as to say you can pad clean with them too.
But that’s only my oppion

[derek west]

swirls marks are an issue as i have read many posts where guys have said, "come up nice but took us ages to groom the swirls marks out"

seen a couple of pictures where the agitater was connected to the cleaning machine (tm or portable) so it was spraying agitating (with crb action) and extracting at the same time, was i halucinating or is there such a machine, and if so whats it called so i can take a look?
derek

[mark shannon]

Yeah Powerbrush heard there not great but never used one.

[Ken Wainwright]

Derek

Although effective, these powerbrush wands do have a draw back. The routine with presprays is to apply, agitate, dwell then rinse.

A powerbrush wand will agitate and rinse in one go, so areas that need extra agitation have lost their pre-spray and you loose on the dwell time too.  You could use a powerbrush wand just for the agitating without a rinse/extract, but they're typically too cumbersome for that and not as effective as a more dedicated agitator. They are, however, very effective when used as a rinse/extract tool on trashed carpets, esp restaurants/bars etc.

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

[cleaningmaster]

Derek
Swirl marks can be a pain to get rid of,especialy if they have been left to long before you "groom" the carpet, small section at a time, but with the suction power of the truck mount they shouldnt be to bad. Do you have a problem getting the triangular wand marks out? around the same kind of problem

Regards

Daryl

[derek west]

daryl
i leave them in, they look cool.
maybe i shouldn't but not had a complaint so far.
i never normally groom afterwards, carpets nearly dry and i'm guessing they come out with the next vac by customer,

waiting for a backlash of comments, eek!
derek

[cleaningmaster]

They dont usually!

Any closer to making your mind up or not going to bother with a machine,(roto-£600--- CRB- £3000) and buy a brush(£20) 

Daryl

[mark shannon]

I think envirodrys about a grand Daryl.

[cleaningmaster]

Mark
Your right, ;)i just rememberd Joe`s post regarding the Host

[derek west]

going for a cheap envirodri i think, sounds like i'll get one for 4 or £500, not definate yet, how easy is it to clean the brushes and change them over, any one know?
derek

[Mike Osbourne]

Do orbitals leave more or less swirls then?

I use a sebo and I think using MS a lot I'd be better off with something like an oreck orbiter and the cleaning of the sebo gets very tiresome after a while.

Derek

You are a naughty boy leaving triangles, you could use a wand technique that doesn't leave them if you can't be arsed to groom.

[Joe H]

Derek
Have you been in touch with Envirodri re their refurbs.?
About 18 months ago they introduced the Gen4 - new design and in black.
It was after that there came to be refurbs of the older blue ones.
I wouldnt be suprised to hear that the refurbs have dried up.

As for changing th e brushes.
THE host is easy peasy.
The Envirodri a bit fiddly. Knock 2 long pins out, remove/change brushs, replace pins.
Thats where the fiddly bit is - might go easy one time, then its a pain to get alignment.

[derek west]

mike
i like my triangles, there uniformed.
joe
youve just put me off, why don't they make them easy, is it the same with the gen4 one?
derek

[mark shannon]

Takes a couple of mins to change brushes on my E30