md_cleaning

  • Posts: 278
what do you use in your tank?
« on: February 14, 2015, 05:12:41 pm »
For average jobs I just use warm water but anything worse than average I use Formula 90 powder and think its really good, is anything better? I used to use the Alltec powder and liked it but went through lots of pumps so changed to formula 90.
Dave

Lewis Newby

  • Posts: 353
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2015, 05:15:47 pm »
Plain water or acid rinse if needed, currently running out my supply of PC f&f rinse, use mostly solutions products at the moment.

What pre sprays are you using? I use SPM probably 75% of the time

md_cleaning

  • Posts: 278
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 05:21:14 pm »
Yes I use Spm most of the time and Enzal on most of the others, but Spm is very good

des

  • Posts: 513
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2015, 06:17:55 pm »
I take it you mean you use SPM or Formula 90  by spraying it down on the carpet and agitating it .Not in the tank
des at mister clean

Richard Cole

  • Posts: 783
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2015, 06:24:08 pm »
Put SPM in your tank and your pump will be knackered very quickly, pre-spray only.
former carpet cleaner, now retired!

md_cleaning

  • Posts: 278
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2015, 06:29:47 pm »
Lewis asked what I use as a pre spray and I said Spm or enzall, I was answering a question, I use formula 90 in the tank for bad jobs and just water for the rest, I'm just asking if anyone thinks anything is berter, sorry for the confusion

JandS

  • Posts: 4237
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2015, 06:58:10 pm »
Why put anything other than water in the tank.....it barely touches the carpet before it's sucked up again.
Impossible done straight away, miracles can take a little longer.

md_cleaning

  • Posts: 278
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2015, 07:23:36 pm »
I beg to differ, it makes a difference for something so pointless, and pleny of in tank things being sold, I think it gives a boost and smells good

Lewis Newby

  • Posts: 353
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 08:23:37 pm »
I use acid rinse on natural fibres with spm to neautralise ph. quite like the smell

jim mca

  • Posts: 827
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2015, 09:49:32 pm »
pre sprays spitfire on wool anything I am using up on polyprop formula 90 powder in tank for mingers DFC 105 or final phase until it runs out on wool

benny d

  • Posts: 706
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2015, 09:00:36 am »
I always thought that you had to use a solution in the tank to bring it to ph neutral. I either use SPM or Pre Spray Gold as a prespray, and Alltec Ultimate Master in the tank.
Im going to be using a TM in a couple of weeks, so wondering whats best to put in the bigger water tank.
"If i'm not in action, I'm in traction"
Voted 397th best looking carpet cleaner in West Sussex 2015. Up 10 from last year...

Lewis Newby

  • Posts: 353
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2015, 09:09:14 am »
spm - as an example is ok to rinse with plain water on PP but for wool needs an acid rince.

Theres an increasing amount of pre sprays in the ph neautral zone which are free rinsing. So it really depends what your chosen pre spray and face pile are.

Lewis

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2015, 09:11:09 am »
I think F90 is the best detergent going. Although I clean with RO pure water

JandS do you completely clean every carpet with just a single pass of your wand? To say using a detergent is pointless as the solution is vacuumed up straight away is not quite correct, often a traffic area will need multiple passes to come clean, in these cases the detergent Is working on the dirt for quite some time.

Also how you clean a room comes into play, I have often cleaned a room but ignored the areas that are don't come completely clean until I've finished..... then go back and reclean those areas again. in these cases the detergent might have been dwelling on the dirt for a good 20 mins.
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

Simon Campbell

  • Posts: 115
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2015, 10:35:04 am »
Of all the courses I've been on its always been recommended that you use an acid rinse in the tank to neutralise, it's also good for the softness and the colour of the coarpet. I'm always willing to be told otherwise and be proven wrong but I always acid rinse to stay on the safe side.

Thanks

Simon

wayne zabel

  • Posts: 1082
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2015, 10:51:24 am »
Mike can you just clarify,when using F90 you don't prespray its just used in the rinse tank?

 Ive never used this stuff before.

I always use a dedicated prespray.

JandS

  • Posts: 4237
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 10:52:01 am »
Point taken Mike but then what's the point of the pre spray, surely that's the cleaning solution.
Which is then flushed out along with the released soiling.
Impossible done straight away, miracles can take a little longer.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2015, 09:16:44 pm »
Of all the courses I've been on its always been recommended that you use an acid rinse in the tank to neutralise, it's also good for the softness and the colour of the coarpet. I'm always willing to be told otherwise and be proven wrong but I always acid rinse to stay on the safe side.

Thanks

Simon
Hi Simon, acid rinse is used to neutralize the alkaline characteristics of most carpet cleaning chemicals and also helps to prevent browning, remember many alkaline based powders or liquids tend to leave carpet and upholstery "crusty" to the touch and will aid in much quicker resoiling as alkaline residues attract soils to the fibers, why not try some greener technologies as many others have suggested, these safer alternatives lead to less resoiling than using harsh high alkaline based chemicals, and you also won't have to worry about using an acid rinse.

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2015, 09:34:18 pm »
Of all the courses I've been on its always been recommended that you use an acid rinse in the tank to neutralise, it's also good for the softness and the colour of the coarpet. I'm always willing to be told otherwise and be proven wrong but I always acid rinse to stay on the safe side.

Thanks

Simon
  many alkaline based powders or liquids tend to leave carpet and upholstery "crusty" to the touch and will aid in much quicker resoiling as alkaline residues attract soils to the fibers,

do you have any proof of this? I've heard this so often but when its challenged no one can ever provide any proof
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

Peter Sweeney

  • Posts: 534
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2015, 09:50:52 pm »
Mike, thats because there isnt any.

SimonW

  • Posts: 213
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2015, 09:55:48 pm »
Rinsing machine is to extract solution applied "pre spray" as well as all dirt and or muck.
Purpose of such rinsing machine is to balance acidity and alkalinity.


Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2015, 10:44:46 pm »
Of all the courses I've been on its always been recommended that you use an acid rinse in the tank to neutralise, it's also good for the softness and the colour of the coarpet. I'm always willing to be told otherwise and be proven wrong but I always acid rinse to stay on the safe side.

Thanks

Simon
  many alkaline based powders or liquids tend to leave carpet and upholstery "crusty" to the touch and will aid in much quicker resoiling as alkaline residues attract soils to the fibers,

do you have any proof of this? I've heard this so often but when its challenged no one can ever provide any proof
Hi Mike, as you probably know i have a total aversion to using any high alkaline based chemicals when it comes to cleaning any type of surface, this aversion has come from many years of using these harsh chemicals and seeing first hand the damage they can cause from continuous use, i could talk about so many different types of surfaces which are affected by these harsh chemicals, but we will keep it to carpet and upholstery, i am sure Mike that you don't need me to tell you about the nasty ingredients that are used to produce these harsh chemical products, the only proof i can offer is from using them for many years i always found that they would leave a "crusty" feeling to the fibers when i was finished the clean, again i can't be the only person to have found this to be true.

Peter Sweeney

  • Posts: 534
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2015, 11:02:36 pm »
What Mike said, and still it applies

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2015, 11:10:09 pm »
What Mike said, and still it applies
Goodman yourself Peter.

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2015, 11:49:01 pm »
I Always use a pre spray cocktail of different top of the range solutions & have always used a powdered tank additive... first it was Ashbys "Supreme powder" & now im including "Formula 90"... Because you get the double whammy of your pre spray & then the tank detergent nice & warm 40-60oc Then after cleaning & total extraction with dry passes spray a "Neat" light misting of Ashbys "Supreme Finish" or "Prochem F&F Rinse" all over the carpet... The finishing sprays are ph neutral so when misted just enough make the carpet "Safe"... only misting just enough to be absorbed into the slightly touch damp fibers... Leaves the carpets smelling delicious & ive never ever had a call back or a dissatisfied customer :) & most carpets i clean when i leave the house are 95% dry... unless they are wool... then they take a little longer as we all know anyway...
Its all about getting results & Powdered Tank Detergents help get those results... Simple as that really :)

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2015, 12:24:13 am »
I Always use a pre spray cocktail of different top of the range solutions & have always used a powdered tank additive... first it was Ashbys "Supreme powder" & now im including "Formula 90"... Because you get the double whammy of your pre spray & then the tank detergent nice & warm 40-60oc Then after cleaning & total extraction with dry passes spray a "Neat" light misting of Ashbys "Supreme Finish" or "Prochem F&F Rinse" all over the carpet... The finishing sprays are ph neutral so when misted just enough make the carpet "Safe"... only misting just enough to be absorbed into the slightly touch damp fibers... Leaves the carpets smelling delicious & ive never ever had a call back or a dissatisfied customer :) & most carpets i clean when i leave the house are 95% dry... unless they are wool... then they take a little longer as we all know anyway...
Its all about getting results & Powdered Tank Detergents help get those results... Simple as that really :) Hi James, just so you know Prochems f & f rinse is far from being neutral pH, if you look at the exposure controls/personal protection on Prochems Formula 90 and Ashbys Supreme powder they both recommend for hand protection gloves are required, eye protection wear safety goggles, skin protection wear protective clothing with elasticated cuffs and closed neck, also wear boots made of pvc, this is my point if the manufacturers are recommending that you have to take these precautions when using their harsh chemicals is it not safer to use green technologies when cleaning your clients surfaces.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2015, 12:44:23 am »
I Always use a pre spray cocktail of different top of the range solutions & have always used a powdered tank additive... first it was Ashbys "Supreme powder" & now im including "Formula 90"... Because you get the double whammy of your pre spray & then the tank detergent nice & warm 40-60oc Then after cleaning & total extraction with dry passes spray a "Neat" light misting of Ashbys "Supreme Finish" or "Prochem F&F Rinse" all over the carpet... The finishing sprays are ph neutral so when misted just enough make the carpet "Safe"... only misting just enough to be absorbed into the slightly touch damp fibers... Leaves the carpets smelling delicious & ive never ever had a call back or a dissatisfied customer :) & most carpets i clean when i leave the house are 95% dry... unless they are wool... then they take a little longer as we all know anyway...
Its all about getting results & Powdered Tank Detergents help get those results... Simple as that really :) Hi James, just so you know Prochems f & f rinse is far from being neutral pH, if you look at the exposure controls/personal protection on Prochems Formula 90 and Ashbys Supreme powder they both recommend for hand protection gloves are required, eye protection wear safety goggles, skin protection wear protective clothing with elasticated cuffs and closed neck, also wear boots made of pvc, this is my point if the manufacturers are recommending that you have to take these precautions when using their harsh chemicals is it not safer to use green technologies when cleaning your clients surfaces.


lol ... you are like a stuck record Tadgh  ,  most products carry similar warning labels , does not mean they are likely to be harmfull if used as directed ...  
Even Baby powder had those warning !  
now , would they sell a baby product thats likely to harm a baby ?

http://www1.mscdirect.com/MSDS/MSDS00010/62525761-20110708.PDF

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2015, 12:52:29 am »
I Always use a pre spray cocktail of different top of the range solutions & have always used a powdered tank additive... first it was Ashbys "Supreme powder" & now im including "Formula 90"... Because you get the double whammy of your pre spray & then the tank detergent nice & warm 40-60oc Then after cleaning & total extraction with dry passes spray a "Neat" light misting of Ashbys "Supreme Finish" or "Prochem F&F Rinse" all over the carpet... The finishing sprays are ph neutral so when misted just enough make the carpet "Safe"... only misting just enough to be absorbed into the slightly touch damp fibers... Leaves the carpets smelling delicious & ive never ever had a call back or a dissatisfied customer :) & most carpets i clean when i leave the house are 95% dry... unless they are wool... then they take a little longer as we all know anyway...
Its all about getting results & Powdered Tank Detergents help get those results... Simple as that really :) Hi James, just so you know Prochems f & f rinse is far from being neutral pH, if you look at the exposure controls/personal protection on Prochems Formula 90 and Ashbys Supreme powder they both recommend for hand protection gloves are required, eye protection wear safety goggles, skin protection wear protective clothing with elasticated cuffs and closed neck, also wear boots made of pvc, this is my point if the manufacturers are recommending that you have to take these precautions when using their harsh chemicals is it not safer to use green technologies when cleaning your clients surfaces.


lol ... you are like a stuck record Tadgh  ,  most products carry similar warning labels , does not mean they are likely to be harmfull if used as directed ...  
Even Baby powder had those warning !  
now , would they sell a baby product thats likely to harm a baby ?

http://www1.mscdirect.com/MSDS/MSDS00010/62525761-20110708.PDF
Hi John, i was waiting for your input, its easy to get fellows going on here. happy cleaning and make sure its green.

Robin Ray

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2015, 08:02:57 am »
Is it as clear cut as using only high ph or not?

Some times it is necessary to throw everything at a carpet to get it clean. After that it can be maintained with milder chemicals.

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2015, 08:26:23 am »
used correctly, at the right dilution, detergents will not cause re-soiling

'High Ph' is a measurement not a physical entity it has no bearing on whether a chemical will leave a sticky residue..... its like saying "5mph made my leg go green"  ::)roll ::)roll

I don't know what Ph honey is but if you put a diluted mixture on a carpet I guess this would cause re-soiling. but a specifically designed detergent mixed at a dilution of 400-1 (of which 80% is removed) will not. Considering on an average 14x14 living room you will leave 1 teaspoon of actual powder after cleaning and some of this will return to powder and be vacuumed up by the homeowner.

we need to come out of the 1960s were this information was born, then it was true with shampoos that were used to clean. Now we have had 50yrs of development by manufacturers who know that one of  our biggest concern is 'residue'

 the problem is some of the trainers in our industry learnt there trade then and work on the theory its better to be safe than sorry, and acid rinsing is the safest option so its better to teach that.

Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2015, 09:11:55 am »
Wool carpets especially creams or white can be chemically burnt by using too high a ph chemical, fact. I have seen it many times and I have umpteen phonecalls every year where this has happened. Personally I would never have used a product with a ph of 12 on wool carpets as a regular thing. I have used Champion on badly soot damaged carpets and with an acid rinse have got away with it.
Light coloured berbers are very prone to this as they tend to remain wetter longer due to the folds in the pile.
In tank detergents are very effective cleaners. Formula 90 in the tank with no pre-spray will give a very good clean without the need for a pre-spray. Even though as has been said the solution is only in the carpet for seconds the results can be quite remarkable. For mingers a pre-spray and agitation is often required but if you price yourself correctly and generally clean resonably clean carpets which are cleaned at least yearly then a tank detergent is usually sufficient.

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2015, 10:32:43 am »
Yes Tadgh you are right to pick me up on that point where i said Supreme finish & f&f rinse are ph neautral... i worded it wrong (it was late & i was tired...) What i meant to say was those two slightly acidic products when applied to carpets after cleaning with high alkaline powders will neautralise the high alkaline ph & leave the carpets in the "Safe ph" zone...
& Hi John i understand what yourself & pink polo mike ;) were saying to me about the effects of high alkaline powders/products attacking & degrading the proteins of the wool fibers themselves, but i am curious... Is it not just a time & state related issue where those problems occur? what i mean by that is if you were to leave the products in the carpet "Too long"... or Leave the carpet having No kind of acid rinse applied at all in any way... be it as an in tank rinse or after as a finishing spray... Then yes i can well imagine that a wool carpet could suffer those problems you describe...
When i clean a room carpet & i apply my pre-spay its only on the fibers for quite a relatively short time before it gets extracted with my machine with yes Some powder like Supreme powder for extra cleaning power... & then i apply my Finishing spray misting... all within an hour 99% of the time
Do you think that because i dont leave the high alkaline products in the carpet for too long & apply the finishing spray straight after cleaning that room... That it may be why i never get any negative call backs to correct browning or other such post cleaning problems? :)

stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2015, 11:03:09 am »
I use Chemspec detergents in my tank and always have, I've experimented with the likes of m power and spm then just a hot water rinse but I always go back to my trusted detegents, saying that I do use presprays on heavily soiled carpet and upholstery, but as Mike has rightly said modern day chemicals and definitely Chemspec chemicals leave no or very little residue



Stuart

des

  • Posts: 513
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2015, 04:04:10 pm »
Stuart are you going through a lot of pumps as ive being told that any thing in the clean tank especially powders will clog your pump very quick
des at mister clean

Lewis Newby

  • Posts: 353
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2015, 05:04:26 pm »
Des, i belive its the oxy boosted products which can cavitate the pumps internal. An in tank powdered detergent shouldnt contain anything like that.
keep things like spm away- its a pre spray afterall

Geoff Jewkes

  • Posts: 654
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2015, 06:46:38 pm »
50 mm shells........

jim mca

  • Posts: 827
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2015, 10:41:07 pm »
James

Have you tested the PH after you have misted acid rinse I don't think it would make much difference and definitely not if you use powdered F90 you should try rinsing with liquid high heat when you use a alkaline pre spray

Jim

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2015, 11:42:15 pm »
used correctly, at the right dilution, detergents will not cause re-soiling

'High Ph' is a measurement not a physical entity it has no bearing on whether a chemical will leave a sticky residue..... its like saying "5mph made my leg go green"  ::)roll ::)roll

I don't know what Ph honey is but if you put a diluted mixture on a carpet I guess this would cause re-soiling. but a specifically designed detergent mixed at a dilution of 400-1 (of which 80% is removed) will not. Considering on an average 14x14 living room you will leave 1 teaspoon of actual powder after cleaning and some of this will return to powder and be vacuumed up by the homeowner.

we need to come out of the 1960s were this information was born, then it was true with shampoos that were used to clean. Now we have had 50yrs of development by manufacturers who know that one of  our biggest concern is 'residue'

 the problem is some of the trainers in our industry learnt there trade then and work on the theory its better to be safe than sorry, and acid rinsing is the safest option so its better to teach that.


Hi Mike, from my experience i have found high alkaline based chemicals can be very aggressive and need to be used with caution as they can cause many problems, the pH scale is logarithmic so for example a high alkaline based chemical with a pH value of 12 is ten times more alkaline than a product with a pH value of 11 but it is a 100 times more alkaline than a product with a pH value of 10.  My point being as you have said now we have 50 years of development and with todays advancements in cleaning science there are many safe and effective cleaning technologies available where you can clean surfaces with more confidence. from my many years of experience in the industry i have come across and used many different brands of these harsh chemicals most containing the same caustic and corrosive ingredients i won't start naming them as they can be seen on the sds, just to say these high alkaline based chemicals are used in all divisions of the cleaning industry and do cause many problems on an array of surfaces. It will take many more years but i think its fair to say more and more people are looking at safer alternatives.

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2015, 06:57:01 am »
I have no doubt that high alkaline cleaning agents Can be aggressive, my post refers to their ill found reputation to cause re-soiling and the fact that people automatically mention re-soiling when they are mentioned but are unwilling to reference any actually studies to back it up and just use terms like 'in my years of experience' or give thier personal opinion as though it was fact.

Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

Derek_Walker

  • Posts: 454
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2015, 09:20:43 am »
Most carpet cleaners are not chemists and can only rely on the manufacturers and suppliers, to give us the right information about how their products work and perform. Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation, guessing, theories and hidden agenda's at work with no proof available. The sticky residue theory has been been around for decades and a lot of carpet cleaners will use this excuse for marketing purposes to set themselves apart from the so called cowboys or rug doctors with their soapy residue's.

stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2015, 04:11:46 pm »
Des

I had a few problems about four years ago, but at that time I was using the water too hot and a fair bit of Ultimate master, dont get me wrong, its good stuff but dosent like pumps of any discription,
I mainly use Chemspec formula 70 but do use F90 and Oneclean and hiation cotton cleaner and can't say that I have had any problems, I tend to change the pump heads every two years because its more economical to to that rather than buy the service kits

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2015, 04:56:33 pm »


  Just buy some citric acid powder on ebay  , shake a bit into the water tank every few days , run it through the hoses , inheater etc .  Watch any chalky buildup on filters , imersions or any thing else disappear instantly .  Must be for same inside the pump , connections etc .

It can also be your acid rince if ever need any .

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Anhydrous-Citric-Acid-250g-500g-1Kg-2Kg-5Kg-10Kg-25Kg-Food-Grade-Bath-Bombs-/380722519910?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item58a4d49f66

JandS

  • Posts: 4237
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2015, 06:34:21 pm »
Where you get your pump heads from Stuart?
Impossible done straight away, miracles can take a little longer.

Simon Campbell

  • Posts: 115
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2015, 07:20:46 pm »
Wow...this has been a very informative thread for me. I am from the school of choosing the appropriate pre-spray and then acid rinse then treat what's left. Just so I have this right...if I for example use F90 powder mixed into my solution tank I don't have to pre-spray? The F90 will clean and also leave the carpet neutral? Seems a no brainer to me.

I am going to have to try this...! And Being honest I haven't heard of a finishing spray so I will have to try that as well

Cheers guys

md_cleaning

  • Posts: 278
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2015, 08:48:36 pm »
Well this thread certainly got everyone talking, thanks for all the replies

Simon Campbell

  • Posts: 115
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2015, 08:54:37 pm »
Yeah good shout md...!

stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2015, 09:14:44 pm »
Jands

I get the heads from WCS   they cost me about £120 plus vat but I do get a discount

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2015, 09:30:38 pm »
I have no doubt that high alkaline cleaning agents Can be aggressive, my post refers to their ill found reputation to cause re-soiling and the fact that people automatically mention re-soiling when they are mentioned but are unwilling to reference any actually studies to back it up and just use terms like 'in my years of experience' or give thier personal opinion as though it was fact.


Hi Mike, again i have found from my experience which i am happy to share and not saying that its fact, re-soiling can be attributed to detergent residues left behind after cleaning, detergents by design will attract soils ( i am not just talking about high alkaline ones but all types of detergents ) by leaving detergent residues in carpets and upholstery after cleaning, detergents rapidly attract soils, to limit this i have found its better not to put any detergent in the clean tank. So first i would give the carpet a good thorough vac ( not with a Henry by the way but with a good decent commercial vac cleaner ) then pre-spray the carpet with detergent ( i would not use high alkaline ones as i have found them to be aggressive especially if you are going to be cleaning them for clients on a regular basis as you want to become a cleaner they can trust and rely on, anyway its up to each which type of detergent they choose, allow dwell time agitate if required then using only warm water in your extraction machine proceed to spray and extract. i have found with this method and using less aggressive detergents that you don't have to worry about acid rinsing,browning,fibers feeling crusty,etc.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2015, 09:49:08 pm »
I also meant to add that no one should believe if an acid rinse is used that there won't be any residues left behind to attract soils, as this is not true and just another reason for manufacturers to sell more products.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2015, 10:17:15 pm »
I have no doubt that high alkaline cleaning agents Can be aggressive, my post refers to their ill found reputation to cause re-soiling and the fact that people automatically mention re-soiling when they are mentioned but are unwilling to reference any actually studies to back it up and just use terms like 'in my years of experience' or give thier personal opinion as though it was fact.


Hi Mike, again i have found from my experience which i am happy to share and not saying that its fact, re-soiling can be attributed to detergent residues left behind after cleaning, detergents by design will attract soils ( i am not just talking about high alkaline ones but all types of detergents ) by leaving detergent residues in carpets and upholstery after cleaning, detergents rapidly attract soils, to limit this i have found its better not to put any detergent in the clean tank. So first i would give the carpet a good thorough vac ( not with a Henry by the way but with a good decent commercial vac cleaner ) then pre-spray the carpet with detergent ( i would not use high alkaline ones as i have found them to be aggressive especially if you are going to be cleaning them for clients on a regular basis as you want to become a cleaner they can trust and rely on, anyway its up to each which type of detergent they choose, allow dwell time agitate if required then using only warm water in your extraction machine proceed to spray and extract. i have found with this method and using less aggressive detergents that you don't have to worry about acid rinsing,browning,fibers feeling crusty,etc.

' Detergent '  is not a substance or a product  , its a loose name given to huge collection of different cleaning products and ingredient mixes .
You you need to qualify what you say by naming the exact product u used when u believe u witnessed rapid resoiling  , the equipment , the method , the carpet ...

I almost always use an product intank as well as prespray if necessary , i often look at rooms iv previously done when im back doing another and i have not witnessed rapid resoiling with the products i use .

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2015, 10:20:41 pm »
Detergents used as prescibed do not cause rapid re-soiling, stop scare m ongering

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2015, 10:25:58 pm »
Hi John, thats why i used the word detergent it covers a whole range of different types of cleaning technologies all which can and are produced to attract soils, as i am not paying for advertising at the moment its not fair of me to mention products, again John i am sharing what i have found from my experience and am not saying its fact.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2015, 10:27:40 pm »
Detergents used as prescibed do not cause rapid re-soiling, stop scare m ongering
John, stop being daft.

darren72

  • Posts: 155
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2015, 10:31:04 pm »
Is this not the same guy that made a complete arse of himself when telling people how to clean leather.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2015, 10:40:44 pm »
Hi John, thats why i used the word detergent it covers a whole range of different types of cleaning technologies all which can and are produced to attract soils, as i am not paying for advertising at the moment its not fair of me to mention products, again John i am sharing what i have found from my experience and am not saying its fact.
John, i am sharing the method i have found to be most effective in leaving carpets and upholstery free of detergent residue and helps to minimise re-soiling, i am not saying my method is fact.

What i am trying to get across is detergents attract soils and this is fact.
We could not clean surfaces with detergents if they did not attract dirt or soils or whatever you want to call them.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2015, 10:44:40 pm »
Is this not the same guy that made a complete arse of himself when telling people how to clean leather.
Keep it coming Darren, your doing well.

Carpet Dawg

  • Posts: 2968
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2015, 10:46:16 pm »
Is this not the same guy that made a complete arse of himself when telling people how to clean leather.

sure is.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2015, 10:52:51 pm »
Is this not the same guy that made a complete arse of himself when telling people how to clean leather.

sure is.
And the advice is free.

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2015, 12:58:07 am »
Ive used high alkaline powders in my machine ever since i bought it 12 years ago & ive never had a problem with rapid resoiling in my life! so i struggle to understand all this talking of sticky residues? ive never ever seen or experienced anything like that... i also clean my own carpets here in my house & last house with the same methods & detergents i use in customers houses, & ive never had any problems :) rapid resoiling in my world depends on how many times i go in & out of the garden without wiping my feet first... lol

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2015, 07:17:39 am »
to say a detergent can leave a  residue that is sticky, so dirt will stick to it and cause re-soiling is a bit of a quendry, to be 'sticky' a surface needs to have a certain amount of moisture , in most cases something that is dry cannot be sticky ( unless you go into oil based products, but we are talking about water based cleaners) so if we clean a carpet then it dries the minimal amount of detergent left has not only to be in a suffient quantity but also never completely dry.

Let's look at another idea that might be responsible for the idea that detergents cause re-soiling.... The old practice of including optical brighteners in detergents.

So ( years ago) you cleaned a carpet and it looked amazing :D :D, the colours looked bright and the stains had gone, but a couple of weeks later you go back to the house and it looks crap :'( :'(

had it re-soiled? or have the optical brighteners that created the illusion that the carpet looked really clean ceased to work?.

Perhaps this is where the idea of resoiling came from, not from 'sticky residue' but the old use of optical brighteners ( I say 'old use' as I don't think optical brighteners are still added to modern detergents)
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2015, 07:32:35 am »
Well this morning I am cleaning a church hall, solutions heavy duty microsplitter and hot water rinse ! Why ? Because I want to use it up and its an ideal scenario , I have twenty litres left of this product and the only chemical left on my shelves from solutions



Stuart

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2015, 08:28:43 am »
Mike some cheap chemicals which used to be pushed by valeting suppliers about 20 years ago did not crystalise and did leave sticky residues and also burnt your fingers, thankfully those products have gone now. The products now available to carpet cleaners from the pto companies like Prochem and Chemspec have had millions of dollars spent on development and testing which is constantly ongoing. Colloidals which Tadgh is pushing actually dry to a gooey residue as opposed to a crystal. However as with any product there is so little of it in the cleaning solution and most of that is extracted that re-soiling is not an issue. Re-soiling did used to be a problem mainly due to inferior products and cleaners who went glug glug glug instead of measuring out. And we still have one clown up here, I'm lead to believe still uses Daz.

from edge2edge

  • Posts: 1507
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2015, 09:11:47 am »
Daz......,,.burger me .........the cost of chemicals is so low that is just brainless.....Alan

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2015, 09:24:49 am »
Mike some cheap chemicals which used to be pushed by valeting suppliers about 20 years ago did not crystalise and did leave sticky residues and also burnt your fingers, thankfully those products have gone now. The products now available to carpet cleaners from the pto companies like Prochem and Chemspec have had millions of dollars spent on development and testing which is constantly ongoing. Colloidals which Tadgh is pushing actually dry to a gooey residue as opposed to a crystal. However as with any product there is so little of it in the cleaning solution and most of that is extracted that re-soiling is not an issue. Re-soiling did used to be a problem mainly due to inferior products and cleaners who went glug glug glug instead of measuring out. And we still have one clown up here, I'm lead to believe still uses Daz.
John, there are many other technologies which are far safer to use on surfaces and produced by manufacturers who really do care, i have found from my years of experience in dealing with products from manufacturers even the two you mentioned above and many others with them that they don't care really its all about their bottom line, they are still producing old school technology/products which are harsh and aggressive but hey look they have been getting away with this for years. thankfully today there are manufacturers who produce much safer cleaning technologies and that do actually care, and no John i am not just talking about micelles technology there are also many others.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2015, 11:25:56 am »

Tadgh , can u not be specific  , list the  ' new technologies ' tell us whats new about them , who the caring manufacturers are .
And just take one product u consider ' old school '  how about F90 powder , and tell us what ingredient is ' harsh ' and likely to ' damage surfaces '

Many of the ingredients are petty basic chemicals , something sodium carbonate ... how can it be 'old technology 'or '  'new technology ' ... its not a technology its just sodium carbonate ?

No vague answer please  :D

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2015, 02:13:18 pm »
Tadgh, I think its you that's being daft now making statements like that. Prochem spent 10 million dollars producing Microsan. Do you think they did that just to improve their bottom line, I doubt it somehow. I think you've been sucked into some of this balls that is talked about certain products and companies trying to re-invent the wheel.

stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2015, 04:48:06 pm »
John

now who's being vague ?  Just say Solutions ! Lol

Stuart

gwrightson

  • Posts: 3617
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2015, 04:55:59 pm »
Daz......,,.burger me .........the cost of chemicals is so low that is just brainless.....Alan


 ;D ;D ;D

 I just knew somebody would bite ::)roll   

Going fishing now

Geoff
who ever said dont knock before u try ,i never tried dog crap but i know i wouldnt like  haha

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2015, 05:10:30 pm »
No wasn't a pop at Solutions. Don't know where Tadgh gets his products from, he's a supplier as well.

Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2015, 06:03:15 pm »
But what is 'old skool'? How do we define it?

It's nice to have a debate about cleaning products with out a slanging match, company names are mention because they stand behind their beliefs but it doesn't have to be personal Tadgh is demonstrating his knowledge as is John this is the way I like to read it so please carry on.

Moderators hat off now and well done guys.

Shaun

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2015, 07:40:55 pm »
I think most guys know what I mean about old school technologies, yes I used them for over 20 years , from my experience I found many of them to be harsh and aggressive, I was always open and receptive to looking at new technologies as long as they were considered safe, I lost trust wth the major brand manufacturers a long time ago for obvious reasons, I  come across many companies who claim their cleaning solutions are safe but from experience and testing their products many are just trying to jump on the green revolution, there are some  very safe and effective cleaning technologies available today which I would class as new school technology, I have taken the time and been open and receptive  to trying them out some very disappointing  and others I have found to be game changing, I am not going to try and push my findings but would suggest to others be more open to change as there are incredible advances happening not just for our industry but in all industries.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2015, 07:49:16 pm »
I think most guys know what I mean about old school technologies, yes I used them for over 20 years , from my experience I found many of them to be harsh and aggressive, I was always open and receptive to looking at new technologies as long as they were considered safe, I lost trust wth the major brand manufacturers a long time ago for obvious reasons, I  come across many companies who claim their cleaning solutions are safe but from experience and testing their products many are just trying to jump on the green revolution, there are some  very safe and effective cleaning technologies available today which I would class as new school technology, I have taken the time and been open and receptive  to trying them out some very disappointing  and others I have found to be game changing, I am not going to try and push my findings but would suggest to others be more open to change as there are incredible advances happening not just for our industry but in all industries.

I dont think they do ..    name three new school products based on differing technologies and explain how they differ from ' old school  'products ???

stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2015, 07:56:48 pm »
Who cares ? As long as they clean carpets and our customers are happy  ;D

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2015, 08:07:42 pm »
I think most guys know what I mean about old school technologies, yes I used them for over 20 years , from my experience I found many of them to be harsh and aggressive, I was always open and receptive to looking at new technologies as long as they were considered safe, I lost trust wth the major brand manufacturers a long time ago for obvious reasons, I  come across many companies who claim their cleaning solutions are safe but from experience and testing their products many are just trying to jump on the green revolution, there are some  very safe and effective cleaning technologies available today which I would class as new school technology, I have taken the time and been open and receptive  to trying them out some very disappointing  and others I have found to be game changing, I am not going to try and push my findings but would suggest to others be more open to change as there are incredible advances happening not just for our industry but in all industries.

I dont think they do ..    name three new school products based on differing technologies and explain how they differ from ' old school  'products ???
John, I have spent many years doing my homework on this and will continue , I trust my judgement on these new breakthroughs, all i can say without giving you my hard earned findings is don't be afraid change dose not hurt.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2015, 08:19:45 pm »

Tadgh , if you avoid questions with answers like that  then i have to conclude you have not got a clue what your talking about .

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2015, 08:33:55 pm »

Tadgh , if you avoid questions with answers like that  then i have to conclude you have not got a clue what your talking about .
ok John, I don't have a problem with your conclusion.

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2015, 10:14:10 pm »
I like to think I keep abreast of whats happening in the industry for both cleaning and restoration products. I have to say I have not seen any ground breaking advances recently. Colloidal products were invented in 1938 so they are hardly new. Please enlighten us.

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2015, 10:23:33 pm »
Tadgh, Hi there... :)
I think what people are trying to say is Something like this example :- If you have found a new religion & you truly believe in it... then feel free to Preach & Teach :) Dont keep it to yourself as thats Boring...
If youve done lots of research then answering some of those "Prove it" questions will be easy for you surely :)
I am curious what personal experience you had to make you come to the conclusion to stop using the "Harsh Chemicals"? Did something happen on a job?
Genuine question :)

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2015, 11:03:59 pm »
I like to think I keep abreast of whats happening in the industry for both cleaning and restoration products. I have to say I have not seen any ground breaking advances recently. Colloidal products were invented in 1938 so they are hardly new. Please enlighten us.
John yes micelles technology has been around for many years now, we have been looking at three other types of technology which from my experience are far more advanced, as a supplier you will know before you start to promote a new technology you have to have all your I s dotted and your T s crossed when we finish our long drawn out trials I will be happy to share more information, I am not expecting anyone to wait for my lead but I would suggest for guys to be more open as change is coming to our industry and John I am not trying to be smart in saying that is coming from someone who is keeping abreast of what is coming down the line.

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2015, 11:48:35 pm »
So what are you saying?... Are you saying that the new Technologies that your testing will produce "Better" Results than the "Harsh Alkaline Detergents"?
Or will the results be just as good... just "Greener/Safer" ? :)

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #79 on: February 19, 2015, 12:11:17 am »
So what are you saying?... Are you saying that the new Technologies that your testing will produce "Better" Results than the "Harsh Alkaline Detergents"?
Or will the results be just as good... just "Greener/Safer" ? :)

James, harsh alkaline detergents are excellent for removing soils and dirt, new school technologies are also excellent at removing soils and dirt, the difference being that they are not harsh and aggressive like old school technologies, if you get my drift and the reason I have stayed clear of using high alkaline  based detergents for many years now.

Peter Sweeney

  • Posts: 534
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #80 on: February 19, 2015, 08:42:50 am »
Tadgh, you should be a politician, you actually avoid answering anything with such drivel. You just speak and accomplish nothing by avoiding the actual question.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2015, 09:18:32 am »
Tadgh, you should be a politician, you actually avoid answering anything with such drivel. You just speak and accomplish nothing by avoiding the actual question.
[/quote Peter, if you have questions  about what you are using why don't you go and find the answers like I have done. Like you said I listened to drivel for many years from the major brand detergent manufacturers who really didn't want to hear my questions, so now I am getting my own answers, if your happy Peter with what you are using then you have no worries.

Brendan (chem2clean)

  • Posts: 958
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2015, 11:12:27 am »
Hey Tadgh,intersting thread.My understanding you are a supplier,would you not give john Martin (as he has been playing around with his own made up solutions,and hes based here in Ireland)some of your products to sample.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2015, 11:31:16 am »
Hey Tadgh,intersting thread.My understanding you are a supplier,would you not give john Martin (as he has been playing around with his own made up solutions,and hes based here in Ireland)some of your products to sample.
[/quote

 :-X   Jeeze , I want no part in giving Tadgh the oxygen of publicity . He can even answer a basic question ...anyway All he sells is watered down colloid concentrate...already tried that ..It's pretty weak.]

Brendan (chem2clean)

  • Posts: 958
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2015, 11:34:22 am »
Sorry John,my mistake ::)roll ::)roll

Phil @ Extreme Clean

  • Posts: 1296
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2015, 03:34:27 pm »
Wow...this has been a very informative thread for me. I am from the school of choosing the appropriate pre-spray and then acid rinse then treat what's left. Just so I have this right...if I for example use F90 powder mixed into my solution tank I don't have to pre-spray? The F90 will clean and also leave the carpet neutral? Seems a no brainer to me.

I am going to have to try this...! And Being honest I haven't heard of a finishing spray so I will have to try that as well

Cheers guys

Simon i have just started using F90 through chem feed on my prowler and it is great take a look at vid below that was just a pre-vac and f90 through machine nothing else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brXAvUNfgjg
Extreme Clean
Carpets to DRY For!!!!!

www.bookaquote.co.uk

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2015, 04:19:00 pm »
In my opinion "Pre-Spraying" a carpet is a Necessary Step in the cleaning process as it helps to break down existing soilage & loosens everything up especially if you give it a good agitation... making it easier for your machine to extract :)
Not saying that it cant be done without a pre-spray though... just more passes needed & time taken

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2015, 04:20:44 pm »
Brilliant stuff and no residues.

Phil @ Extreme Clean

  • Posts: 1296
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2015, 04:23:32 pm »
It took a few passes on the stain you can see but as normal on the rest and no pre-spray to knock up or agitation so it doesn't take any longer just more efficient. Don't get me wrong i still pre-spray and agitate so i'm more thorough but as said f90 works on contact and very well.
Extreme Clean
Carpets to DRY For!!!!!

www.bookaquote.co.uk

Lewis Newby

  • Posts: 353
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2015, 06:06:20 pm »
Great results for just a rinse Phil, was that f90 powder or liquid and whats the difference- dont say 1s powder lol

can you mix up in tank then pre spray with the wand, scrub with crb/rotary machine and extract for better results or would it be pointless using it that way?

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #90 on: February 19, 2015, 06:11:56 pm »
Lewis
F90 powder is buffered so maintains its ph at different dilutions, the liquids strength can be altered by different dilutions rates which means at its highest dilution it is WOOLSAFE approved

The powder is more cost efective.
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

Lewis Newby

  • Posts: 353
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #91 on: February 19, 2015, 06:15:45 pm »
Thanks Mike, is it viable to pre spray and agitate it prior to rinsing with it or am i missing the point of it.
Nearly out of bold 2in1 so open to try new products  ;D

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #92 on: February 19, 2015, 06:23:39 pm »
Dwell time is alway useful in my opinion but if I was to use F90 as a pre-spray I would have a trigger sprayer of something stronger for any really bad areas, then as I agatate any area that looked like it was'nt responding would get a good squirt.

But if you are going to pre-spray then it's best to use a made for  purpose pre-spray as it will contain ingredients that are more aggressive but are not designed to be left on a carpet, detergents are designed to be ok to left of the carpet so cannot contain the same ingredients that the prespray ( that will be rinsed off) can
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

Phil @ Extreme Clean

  • Posts: 1296
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #93 on: February 19, 2015, 06:27:52 pm »
Lewis it is powder i'm using at 1 scoop per litre mixed then in my chem feed through prowler. If you mixed in tank then used your wand as sprayer before agitation would be fine but only do that if you need too. Just put in you tank mixed then extract and see how it goe's if you think needs agitation then use wand to spray then agitate. I don't know how well it works with a porty but with my prowler and heat also it works a treat i was a bit sceptical at 1st as i always presprayed then agitated before extraction and even though i still do that just because i like that routine and also is more thorough i was amazed with how well carpet came up just extracting with f90.
Extreme Clean
Carpets to DRY For!!!!!

www.bookaquote.co.uk

Simon Campbell

  • Posts: 115
Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #94 on: February 19, 2015, 09:49:59 pm »
Hey cracking vid Phil, thanks for sharing. I don't think it will do any harm to purchase some and have a play  ;D

Tadgh O Shea

Re: what do you use in your tank?
« Reply #95 on: February 19, 2015, 10:37:16 pm »
Hey Tadgh,intersting thread.My understanding you are a supplier,would you not give john Martin (as he has been playing around with his own made up solutions,and hes based here in Ireland)some of your products to sample.
Hi chem2clean, the new school technology products we are testing are not mine they are produced by manufacturers, i lost trust in manufacturers many years ago when they could not or would not answer my questions and this will never change now, there are certain people i would use for testing purposes no offence to John Martin as i don't know John but i would carry out over 90% of the testing myself, when and if i am satisfied with the results i will be happy to share with anyone.Again my point being there are changes happening (and i don't mean just from us or me) change is good keep an open mind as it dose not hurt.