Posted by nat270 (nat270), 18 January 2004
after prespraying and hot water extraction could you rince with only hot water to reduce any residue further or is that just a waste of time.what are your views Posted by mike_halliday (mike_halliday), 18 January 2004
Why not cut out the middle man and rinse out with just freshwater.to rinse out out with a detergent then rinse the detergent out with freshwater could cause overwetting.
why do you feel the need to rinse out any residue, its not going to do any harm. All these carpet cleaners who say detergent residue causes resoiling are talking out of their bottoms
.mike
Posted by Ken_Wainwright (Ken Wainwright), 18 January 2004
Hi Nat270Some pre-sprays are free rinsing and therefor require only a freshwater rinse. Examples that spring to mind are the microsplitters such as OneStep, Easystep and the Solutions range along with Spitfire Advanced from Dry Fusion. I'd advise you follow the instruction on your product labels. After discussions with Chemspec and Prochem at last years NCCA Show, I was told that their traditional ranges were not designed with a freshwater rinse in mind, so a mild detergent/acidic rinse was required. However, Prochem were going to come back to me after consulting their chemist about one of their newer products. I've heard nothing yet.
Safe and happy cleaning
Ken
Posted by Derek (Derek Bolton), 19 January 2004
Hi NatI am talking 'out of my bottom' here (reference Mike's post) and I make NO apologies for doing so....Some residues 'can and do' cause problems.
Why not prespray your cleaning chemicals and rinse.. problem solved.
Regards
Derek
Posted by mike_halliday (mike_halliday), 19 January 2004
all the big chemicals companies have spent millions of pound developing cleaning deteregents whoms residue causes no resoiling.I would think any residue problems that happen are caused by the use of the wrong/inapropriate chemical, or lack of knowledge on the part of the user.
Mike
Posted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 19 January 2004
on 01/18/04 at 20:15:25, mike_halliday wrote:
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Sorry Mike but did you really mean to say that
Mike
Posted by mike_halliday (mike_halliday), 19 January 2004
Yep, I sure did
most carpet cleaners will leave residue in a carpet, In 99% of cases it does no one any harm.
most machines will only pick up at best 85% of the cleaning solution put onto a carpet so that leaves 15% 'residue'
RESIDUE: 'what is left over or remains' The Oxford Compact English Dictionary.
we need to be more specific, instead of using the umbrella term residue.
Derek the 'residue' of certain chemicals will cause problems
residue is not a dirty word ( otherwise it would be replaced with 'thingy'
)Mike
Posted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 19 January 2004
on 01/19/04 at 15:05:49, mike_halliday wrote:
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Aha!
So you agree that 'some' chemical residues cause resoiling and, as such, not all those carpet cleaners are 'talking out of their bottoms'!?
Regards
Mike
Posted by mike_halliday (mike_halliday), 19 January 2004
Mike, you need to read my post again, what I say is detergent residue Eg: Formula 90, Double clean, Crystal green etc does not cause resoiling.some chemical ( solvent cleaners eg POG, D'lemonine or TLC) will cause premiture resoiling but these chemicals should not be left on the carpet.
the original question was 'should we rinse out with freshwater after HWE to reduce further residue' what I'm saying is their is no need to rinse out detergent residue it does'nt do any harm.
mike
Posted by Ian_G. (Ian_Gourlay), 19 January 2004
Is Ken saying give a mild acid rince. Does this not cause overwettingA mild Acid spray is meant to netralise residue and prevent soiling,
I could be wrong?
Posted by Ken_Wainwright (Ken Wainwright), 19 January 2004
IanMost chemical manufacturers will recommend/advise to use an acidic rinse (eg. Prochem Fibre and Fibre Rinse) through your extraction machine instead of an extraction detergent as appropriate. If you do this, there would be no need to apply a post cleaning acidic spray to neutralise any alkaline residues, or to stabilise dyes, or as a preventative treatment against browning. In cases of extreme soiling, if it were necessary to use an aggresive, high pH rinse detergent, you would then apply a post clean misting of Fibre and Fabric Rinse.
As Mike has pointed out, residues are not necessarily harmful to carpets. A correctly cleaned carpet will have cleaning solution residues which should not cause any problems. Much of it will crystalise upon drying and may be removed with dry vacuuming. An acidic rinse will leave residues, but these are generally not considered to be harmful. However, again as Mike points out with specialist spotters as a classic example, incorrectly used or inappropriate solutions can leave problem creating residues. Even tap water leaves residues.
Safe and happy cleaning
Ken
Posted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 19 January 2004
on 01/19/04 at 16:55:10, mike_halliday wrote:
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We'll have to agree to differ here. We've all agreed that 'some' chemicals cause resoiling but how you would distinguish those that do from those that don't I'm not quite sure
Regards
Mike
Posted by Ken_Wainwright (Ken Wainwright), 19 January 2004
MikeA simple test for resoiling properties is to allow some diluted cleaning solution to evaporate from a saucer or dish. If the dried residue is sticky, then rinsing out is essential. If it dries to a crystal, then it should be fine. Of course, you also need to take the pH into account and use as per the manufacturers directions. The container label may also state if the product is non resoiling.
Safe and happy cleaning
Ken
Posted by Dynafoam (Dynafoam), 19 January 2004
Ken,I hope, when you wrote "...you need to take the pH into account" you were refering to the fact that, except for the self-neutralising blends such as Prochem S781, the pH of the residue will alter due to concentration during the evaporative drying stage.
In other words, a damp carpet with a pH of 9 could well have a pH as high as 10 or more when dry.
John.
Posted by Derek (Derek Bolton), 20 January 2004
HiMike has once again stirred up a hornets nest... I think it is up to the individual cleaner to make their own minds up on all aspects of their cleaning.
My own philosophy is to 'be safe' and that refers to me, my customers, their carpets and soft furnishings.
We are not just in the carpet/upholstery cleaning business we are in a high risk business... the idea surely is to minimise any risk... or walk away.
I have seen first hand what can happen with some residues.
I have had to carry out inspections where residues left by a cleaner resulted in the loss of skin from a customers feet.
I have seen colour changes from the use of perfectly good chemicals.
I have seen thoroughly bad cleaning
Its all part of an interesting business
Derek
Posted by nat270 (nat270), 20 January 2004
i have just started with prochem chemicals and had no problems yet, but i think you old pro"s could argue all day on any subject regarding cleaning and would end up agreeing to differ , thanks all.....Posted by Derek (Derek Bolton), 21 January 2004
Hi againI was at an meeting on Saturday during which I talked to a guy who happened to be dealing with a couple of disputes between customer and cleaner.
In both instances the problem was residue left, one in carpet the other in upholstery fabrics. (it looks as though both will have to be replaced)
Sorry Mike. but the culprit was one of the chemicals you mentioned as 'safe'
As I stated in a previous post 'be safe'
Derek
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