Carpet Cleaning Issues - Carpet construction, upholstery cleaning, stain removal, equipment, events, etc.
Carpet clng prices AKA The Wilton v Axminster case
Posted by bjc27 (bjc27), 19 August 2003Can anyone help with a rough guide to the average cost of carpet/upholstery cleaning for a pub - ie, small lounge-type bar with seating along 3 walls and a few stools, etc.
Even a very rough pricing guide will do - just to get an idea!
Hope some one can help me, thanks !
Posted by woodman (woodman), 20 August 2003Are you a carpet cleaner or the owner of the pub?
Are you cleaning the upholstery aswell as the carpet
Do you know the size of the carpet.
Posted by bjc27 (bjc27), 21 August 2003neither - normally valet cars but I agreed to do this as a favour for the landlord as my mates and me caused a bit of a mess!
just an idea of price for upholstery - seating around the walls seats about 30 plus 6 stools and areas around bar - all velvet. (carpet to be done separately)
I want to get paid a reasonable price - but I would hate to end up asking for more than they would pay if done by professional carpet cleaners! problem is - I have no idea what it costs to clean a pub - so even a rough idea would help.
Posted by Derek (Derek), 21 August 2003Hi
There are various sorts of velvet and some of them do not like water i.e. Cotton Velvet or Rayon, if its Acrylic or Polyamide then you should be OK.
The main problem you are going to have is drying, the pub landlord will probably want them and the carpet dry very quickly so they can earn him some cash.
Cleaning Pub carpets (usually Wool and have a high moisture retention) is not so simple as it sounds.. hard work, starting after closing time and getting items dry by around ten o'clock in the morning
Best of luck
Posted by bjc27 (bjc27), 21 August 2003actually already done - took from 11pm - 10am three nights in a row!
question now is what was it worth!!?
Posted by Derek (Derek), 22 August 2003Prices differ widely over the Country and it depends on what equipment you have used (although it shouldn't).
Many technicians would have completed in one evening, certainly the truck mount operators therefore the prices would reflect this
Working three nights on my own for those hours I would want a minimum of £750.... probably wouldn't get it though
Posted by woodman (woodman), 22 August 2003It won't take you 33 hrs to complete that job you will do it in the first night comfortably.
The velvet pile is probably Draylon (don't worry if it it is velvet it's still ok to clean just make sure you dress the pile after on both counts)
For the cleaning as mentioned to upholstery assuming it's seats and backs (unseen) I would estimate £348.00 + VAT, the carpet almost certainly a Wilton woven backed on felt, bar area £75 - £110 + VAT.
If he's a mate or your doing it as a favour deduct 10-15%
Good Luck and behave yourself in future
Posted by Derek (Derek), 22 August 2003Hi
I am glad that the job has already been done as if there was going to be a problem then it would have shown itself by now.
Most pub/ Hotel carpets that I have seen are Axminster (Wiltons are too expensive) usually Wool rich because of that fibres natural fire retardency.
You are probably right Woodman that the fabric was Dralon but I have seen Rayon pile fabrics in pubs and these can go very hard if wet...some of the older ones used to bleed colour.
Incidentally some of the newer loop Rayon fabrics also bleed colour too.
Isn't life exciting?
Have a nice weekend
Posted by woodman (woodman), 23 August 2003Certainly most Hotel/Pub restaurant carpets that I have come across are Contract Wilton.
These can easily be confused with Axminsters and are of course, completely fire proof.
I have found the opposite to you in that these carpets are in fact cheaper than Axminster.
Both are high quality carpets and need to be treated as such, it's convincing the managers of these establishments of the benefits of regular cleaning thats the problem.
Most just simply havn't got a clue and wait for a disaster or a visit from the health inspectors before they act.
Posted by Derek (Derek), 23 August 2003Hi Woodman
I personally have never found there to be any confusion identifying Axminster and Wilton carpets.
Their construction is totally different and the Wilton carpets are usually more expensive as they carry far more yarn (expensive bit) within the construction itself.
Posted by woodman (woodman), 24 August 2003They are both woven backed carpets that use basically the same materials in manufacture it's just that Wilton use a different type of loom.
As you say they use more yarn in manufacture because of the continuous run which is why it's heavier and stronger.
BUT what throws people is when you get a patterned Wilton with different colours in the pattern a lot of cleaners and customers then think it's an Axminster.
I have come across this loads of times when cleaners have ended up shrinking a carpet of the gripper because they did not recognise a Belgium Wilton, which is why carpet cleaners need to know the difference.
It can be a very costly mistake ,one I am glad to say I have avoided.
Posted by Derek (Derek), 24 August 2003Hi Woodman
You have raised an interesting point here...many of the new cleaners or those starting up will not have heard of the infamous 'Belgian Wilton'
We all call this type of carpet 'Belgian Wilton' although it really is of Axminster construction (don't ask why as I don't know)
Axminsters made in the UK are usually Wool rich face fibres woven on jute whilst those made in Belgium have a Polypropylene face fibre but still woven on jute.
Polypropylene absorbs NO moisture as such, therefore it moves straight into the jute. The jute swells and contracts, the body of the carpet dimensionally changes ...it shrinks!
The Wool rich pile carpets will absorb moisture reducing the amount available to the jute in the backing so unless it is overwet it should remain stable.
The trick is to look at the back of the carpet where the pattern colours show through far stronger on a BW carpet than a British made Axminster.
Hope this helps
Posted by woodman (woodman), 25 August 2003Hi Derek
Put simply they are called Belguim Wiltons because they are manufactured on Wilton Face to Face looms, funnily enough in Belgium.
The patterns look like Axminster which is where the confusion arises as I have mentined earlier.
They are all synthetic and any carpet cleaner in any doubt can simply carry out a burn test on a tuft taken from around the edge.
As we all know if in doubt TEST FIRST.
Posted by Derek (Derek), 25 August 2003Hi Woodman
Ha Ha, you may have hit on another little bit of confusion over the Wilton / Axminster constructions. I am getting confused with all the talk of Axminster carpets being produced on Wilton machines.
With regard to pub carpets you mentioned a post or two ago.. Wilton do manufacture carpets with the traditional Axminster designs but unless some of the colours are planted then it doesn't match up to the true Wilton design restrictions.
The Wilton and Axminster carpets although they share the 'woven' catagory are totally different in construction. If the Belgian Wiltons were in fact Wilton construction then you wouldn't be able to see the distinct pattern on the reverse side which is one of the first indications as to what you are dealing with.
There are many cleaning technicians who may find the distinction between the polymer fibres during a burn test confusing too.
Not easy this business...perhaps I should have been a traffic warden!
Posted by admin (Forum Admin), 26 August 2003I think I'll rename this post
Posted by woodman (woodman), 27 August 2003Good Idea Forum probably wants restarting as a new topic.
You don't want to get to hung up on the construction , as I have said earlier.
Wiltons are made on Wilton Looms as are Belgium Wiltons using the Wilton method.
The looms here constructing traditional Wiltons only allow 5-7 colours to be used the Belgium looms allow more hence the colours/patterns on the backs.
If in doubt Simply carry out the test below to be 100% certain.
You can see how easy it is for cleaners to be fooled by these types of carpets thats why I would recommend a carpet recognition course to all cleaners.
As for the burn test again no confusion here simply hold a sample of yarn in a pair of tweezers burn the end, if it shrinks back and beads it's synthetic . If it burns slowly and crumbles between thumb and finger it's wool or mainly wool (80/20).
You can of course carry out a float test to check olefin/polyprop (belguim Wiltons)
This will determine which type of cleaning to carry out regardless of synthetic materials used.
Any carpet that contains wool must be cleaned as a wool carpet even if its 50/50.
Posted by Derek (Derek), 27 August 2003Hi Woodman
Thanks for your comments about getting hung up on the various weaving methods but I thought I had this one well and truly sorted out.
I have samples of most of the types and constructions of carpeting and I know that my eyesight isn't what it was ...But I still can't see for the life of me the BW as a true Wilton.
Perhaps we could meet up at the NCCA exhibition and discuss this... I can bring a few samples with me
I agree that you can get hung up on burn test results and really all you need to know is the catagory Natural/Synthetic.
As you say clean as the majority fibre denotes.
Fabrics take a bit more looking at though... many of the dyes are dodgy and some do not show and changes with a pre-test but only on drying.
Posted by Derek (Derek), 27 August 2003Hi
I couldn't rest so I have just destroyed a section of Belgian 'Wilton'... not one that was fitted I might add, just one of the samples I have.
It is quite clearly of Axminster construction with each individual tuft in its place... It must be the Belgians pulling my leg
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