Ladder ban - Help with the issue - Window Cleaning Issues

Window Cleaning Issues - Canvassing, pole systems, pricing, problems, etc.

Ladder ban - Help with the issue

Posted by Silly_Philly (Philip Hanson), 30 March 2004

As I'm sure most will have heard by now, the UK will soon adopt European Directive 2001/45/EC also known as the Temporary Work at Height Directive.

We have discussed its impact on the window cleaning industry in general, noting that broadly speaking, later this year the use of Unsecured Ladders for window cleaning will be against the law.

(A number of other EU member states have gone even further, for example the Dutch government have banned the use of ladders completely, even for "Access")

Even though this causes us some inconvenience, lets not forget the reason for these laws in the first place. About 10 window cleaners die every year in the UK, and many more are seriously injured. That is a terrible safety record for any industry! Imagine if a large company was killing 10 of its workers every year due to unsafe working practices in its factories- there would be an urgent enquiry, the company shut down and the directors jailed. People would be outraged, and rightly so.

I might be putting the cat among the pigeons here, but I will go so far as to say that I think these new laws are a good thing. Actually, I'm suprised nothing has been done sooner.

Lets all be glad that there is a way we can continue in business and comply with the new laws. Going over to wfp has been a major expense for us, an no doubt a lot of you as well. Also the customers have needed convincing, and that has not been easy at all. [I will post the text of some things we printed for you to see and hopefully benefit from]

Personally, I am much happier to be working from the ground. I've never had an accident, but I have had some near-misses, and had I fallen I would undoubtably have been very seriously injured. I'm glad not to have to take those risks anymore, and customers seem to be glad its safer for us too.

And lets not make the mistake of thinking these laws won't be policed - they will. And if you get caught, the HSE wont hesitate to prosecute.

The future is WFP. There's no doubt they're expensive systems to buy, but after the initial outlay the increased capacity a wfp system brings will justify the cost. Its no use us moaning about it, lets just bite the bullet and get on with it.

In the next post is the text of some leaflets we used for moving over to WFP. Feel free to directly quote them if you wish, we found them useful.

-Philip

Posted by Silly_Philly (Philip Hanson), 30 March 2004

Posted by SteveTruman (SteveTruman), 30 March 2004

Hi Phil,
I do a lot of builders cleans so lots of ladder work cleaning gutters soffetts etc. Is this law going to include this type of work or is it just window cleaning. Also does it include plumbers fixing guttering,brickies,joiners if so does it meen scaffolding will have to be erected or will somebody footing the ladder be ok. Any words of wisdom from yourself would be appreciated.

Regards

Steve

Posted by Silly_Philly (Philip Hanson), 30 March 2004

You can read the entire set of proposed regulations here, as well as the original text from the European Parliment:

www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf

Not suprisingly, this is a long document (166 pages) Here are some of the relevant points:

How will it affect us? (I have highlighted parts of interest)

Page 12 of the document states how the HSC defines “work at height” :

Quote:

We understand that the intent of the Directive is that all work at height is covered, regardless of where or at what height it is performed. While traditionally in GB workat height has been defined as any work above 2 metres (based on the requirements in the CHSWR), research carried out in support of the Falls from Height Priority Programme has shown that around 60% of all major injuries are caused by falls from heights below 2m. We propose, therefore, to cover all work at height where there is a risk of personal injury.

The EU directive text regarding the use of ladders says:
Page 137

Quote:

4.2.1. Ladders must be so positioned as to ensure their stability during use. Portable ladders must rest on a stable, strong, suitably-sized, immobile footing so that the rungs remain horizontal. Suspended ladders must be attached in a secure manner and, with the exception of rope ladders, so that they cannot be displaced and so that swinging is prevented.

4.2.2. The feet of portable ladders must be prevented from slipping during use by securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends, by any anti-slip device or by
any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness. Ladders used for access must be long enough to protrude sufficiently beyond the access platform, unless other measures have been taken to ensure a firm handhold. Interlocking ladders and extension ladders must be used so that the different sections are prevented from moving relative to one another. Mobile ladders must be prevented from moving before they are stepped on.

Our HSC interprets this part with the following Regulations: Regulation 8 (i) (page 51)

Quote:

3. A ladder shall be so positioned as to ensure its stability during use.

4. A suspended ladder shall be attached in a secure manner and so that, with the exceptionof a flexible ladder, it cannot be displaced and swinging is prevented.

5. The feet of a portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by—
(a) securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends; or
(b) effective anti-slip or other effective stability devices; or
(c) any other arrangements of equivalent effectiveness.

6. A ladder used for access shall be long enough to protrude sufficiently above the place
of landing to which it provides access, unless other measures have been taken to ensure a firm
handhold.

7. No interlocking or extension ladder shall be used unless its sections are prevented from moving relative to each other while in use.

8. A mobile ladder shall be prevented from moving before it is stepped on.

9. Where a ladder or run of ladders rises a vertical distance of 9 metres or more above its base, there shall, where reasonably practicable, be provided at suitable intervals sufficient safe landing areas or rest platforms.

10. Every ladder shall be used in such a way that—
(a) a secure handhold and secure support are always available to the user; and
(b) the user can maintain a safe handhold when carrying a load.

The guidance notes regarding this regulation are as follows: (page 91)

Quote:

119. Portable ladders (not step-ladders) should always be placed at the correct angle, which is around 75 degrees, or roughly one metre out for every four metres up. The feet of portable ladders should be prevented from slipping during use, e.g. by:
- Tying them effectively to an existing structure – securing them at the top is the best method; securing at the bottom or middle is not very
effective to prevent sideways slip unless it is done properly with equipment designed for the purpose;
- Using an appropriate ladder stabiliser or anti-slip devices;
- Having another worker “foot” the ladder. This is where someone stands on the bottom rung, and is only suitable when it is not practicable to secure the ladder in another way.

Not to be ignored, is the inspection regime for equipment used to work at height. Regular, written reports must be produced including the following information (page 53)[regulation 12(7)]

Quote:

PARTICULARS TO BE INCLUDED IN A REPORT OF INSPECTION
1. The name and address of the person for whom the inspection was carried out.
2. The location of the work equipment inspected.
3. A description of the work equipment inspected.
4. The date and time of the inspection.
5. Details of any matter identified that could give rise to a risk to the health or safety of
any person.
6. Details of any action taken as a result of any matter identified in paragraph 5.
7. Details of any further action considered necessary.
8. The name and position of the person making the report.

Posted by matt (matt), 30 March 2004

here is a rather good question, not meant to be smart or anything, BUT here it goes

what about the risk of catching overheard cables with your WFP ?? ?? ??

I used to go fresh water fishing as a young teen, i know of 2 people who died because of elecution (spelling Huh

)

Posted by Silly_Philly (Philip Hanson), 30 March 2004

Good point.

Most wfp are fibre glass, which is non-conducting.

Those made from Carbon-fibre (which IS conducting) have the bottom section made from fibre glass for exactly this reason.

Aluminium, well, your up the creek there I'm afraid.

Philip

Posted by Londoner (Vince Green), 31 March 2004

I think its good that this issue is being discussed and dealt with so positively.
At first I was sceptical and thought it would never work but now I have come round and I'm 100% on side.

Also, I don't think its as expensive as I originally thought it was going to be. Even that could work in our favour. In the past anyone who could scrounge a set of ladders was suddenly a window cleaner and out knocking on your customers doors.
Soon, it will require time, effort and money to get started and the casuals / part timers /dole cheats etc will be pushed out.

Posted by poleman (PoleMan), 31 March 2004

hi chaps to add on to this post iam wright in saying

HSE regulations currently suggest that best practice is to limit the use of portable ladders to a maximum height of 6metres; anything above this, to a maximum of 9 metres requires a stabilising device or eye bolts.

andy

dorset

fed member

Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 31 March 2004

Yes Andy you've got it right.

Footing has been considered OK up to 9 meters but this will change as stated above.

Whereabouts in Dorset are you?

Posted by poleman (PoleMan), 31 March 2004

in poole do you know it!! just round the corner to bournemouth, been a member of the federation over 11 years Cool

Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 31 March 2004

We are neighbours, I am in Christchurch.

Are you going to the Trade show in Leceister?

(PS. Start calling yourself No 2)

Posted by poleman (PoleMan), 31 March 2004

small world, yes number 2 but Aqua Pole will probley be number 1 well.... likes to think so, not thinking of going to the Trade show in Leceister most of the fed dos
are up north, but have to show my face one day Cool

andy

dorset

fed member

Posted by Spoonbill1970 (Spoonbill1970), 31 March 2004

Hello,

Thanks for useful 1st post.

Wee question tho:
What about the use of ladder stabilizing devices such as the Rojak Stopper as a legitimate way to continue using ladders yet still comply with the law?
Was looking on their website the other day and they claim that their newly developed "Multi-Stopper" mimics a 75kg man (or woman) "footing" the bottom of the ladder.
See http://www.rojak.co.uk/products.html

Does anyone know if this is an acceptable compromise?

Also, where do you buy these WFB systems? How much do they cost? (Up in Scotland we are just pulling ourselves away from the old chamois leathers and buying squeegees! Grin

)

HSE also accepts that there is a certain amount of risk with these too. For example, the large volume of water created on footpaths in winter could potentially create a greater risk to the public if it freezes over. I guess too that hoses create trip hazards (as well as hazards to customers prize begonia display!)

Thanks in advance for advice.

JSP

Posted by poleman (PoleMan), 31 March 2004

yes new HSE Guidance notes for the safe use of Waterfed Poles due to be published later this year.

if your looking for a system lots around on this forum.

andy

dorset

fed member

Posted by WavieDavie (WavieDavie), 31 March 2004

Hi JSP,

Get on over to this site . . . http://www.window-tools.com Peter's not too far away from you, he's in Broxburn, West Lothian.

And once you're there, you can read over all the handy hints and tips on his BB http://www.window-tools.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

Happy reading!

Posted by tam (tam), 31 March 2004

I am surprised that all you w/cleaners out there are worried about the new Legislation. The N.F.N.W.C & G.C. have been involved with this issue since the onset.
We have been fighting the corner for our members but it will benifit not just Fed members but all you non members and all workers that use ladders. People ask, what do I get if I join the Fed. Well, the answer is that because of the Fed, ladders will not be completly outlawed, because the fact is that there are so many one man bands out there a lot of our members, and a lot of other w/cleaners would be forced out of business.

Posted by WavieDavie (WavieDavie), 31 March 2004

Hi Tam,

because the fact is that there are so many one man bands out there a lot of our members, and a lot of other w/cleaners would be forced out of business.
Any idea if there's a minimum amount of employees that you need before you're engulfed by the new regs? Will one man bands be exempt?

Posted by pussycatz (HCS), 1 April 2004

Phil
which wfp system do you use and are you happy with it?

Posted by Silly_Philly (Philip Hanson), 1 April 2004

Quote:

Phil
which wfp system do you use and are you happy with it?

Hi HCS.

I built my own system, some of the components and what I think of them are below:

Water Purification: 4 Stage RO/DI machine (200gpd) from Aquatec. I've had no problem with this.

Poles: I use 18ft and 30ft fibre glass "residential" poles I bought from pure2o. Very happy with these, I have no hesitation recommending pure2o. They also do carbon fibre poles.

System : I have built 2 seperate systems-
-Backpack system-(with a lot of help from Jeff Brimble - cheers mate) Will last about 45 mins before needing refilled. Very nippy indeed - no problem winding up hoses etc. Especially good for houses that you have to go through to get to the backs.

- Trolley system, lasts about 1 and half hours of working time. Again nice and handy, looks pro as well.

I use the backpack, my wife uses the trolley for the fronts. If we end up far away from the car, the backpack can be filled from the trolley. Filling either trolley or backpack from the car takes about 20 seconds.

I am very happy with it. Much safer and faster.

How about your system?

Links:

www.pure2o.co.uk
www.window-tools.com

Posted by steve_wright (steve_wright), 1 April 2004

Hey all!

Just about to start window cleaning got flyers etc ready to go.

This is a bit of a shock!

Should i try and build up buisness first with ladders then make transition to WFP?

For residential winsow cleaning how much we talking for pole system?

Would like advice.

Thanks Steve Wink

Posted by geoffreyspecht (geoffreyspecht), 1 April 2004

i have been cleaning windows for 29 years now using ladders and even if there is a ban on cleaning windows with ladders i will still use ladders

Posted by Silly_Philly (Philip Hanson), 1 April 2004

Im sure you wont be the only one. We will have wait and see how well it is enforced.

-Philip

Posted by geoffreyspecht (geoffreyspecht), 1 April 2004

its about freedom of choice phil myfarther fought in the war to protect my freedoom so im not going to let a non democratic eu parliment tell me what i can and cn not do

Posted by matt (matt), 1 April 2004

on 04/01/04 at 22:50:28, Philip Hanson wrote:

Im sure you wont be the only one. We will have wait and see how well it is enforced.

-Philip

this is a good point, the 1st few weeks you might hear about some1 being warned by HSe (warned i said, as they will say "oh i didnt know", then it will all be forgotten about

Straight banana's anyone ?? ?? ??

Posted by tam (tam), 2 April 2004

Philip, what would it cost for you build a system. I would be interested in buying one.

Posted by simonb (simonb), 2 April 2004

You can't afford all this if you are just starting.
Get your ladders out and get stuck in.
You know what anything to do with Europe is like - something might happen in a few years. Even if it does who is going to enforce it?
They can't even stop illegal immigrants because they have no staff.
There's not enough Police to catch burglars.
So you can be safe with your ladder for years.
Even if you did get 'caught' up a ladder you would only get a warning. So you could then think about alternatives

Posted by replacement (Justin R), 2 April 2004

Some very wise words from SimionB there. Totally agree this is getting blow out of all poprtions. There will not be an total ban on ladders, your just have to use them properly thats all. So stop worrying about it i bet 90% of you anit even read the paper on it.

Justin

Posted by Spoonbill1970 (Spoonbill1970), 2 April 2004

Thanks Wavie Davie,

Had a good read thru the BB the other night-seems to be the way forward right enough.
Chap round our way has spent £5K on van mounted system a year ago. Seems a bit steep. I know one of his domestic customers, and he is not a happy bunny - gravel all over path, plants uprooted, water squirted in the wee Slotvents at the top of the window.
Trolley looks like a much more workable answer.

Have you got one from Broxburn? Do you think they are interested in giving Demos?

Thanks for pointers to website.

JSP

Posted by Londoner (Vince Green), 2 April 2004

The point is , whether you like it or not,(and whether you agree with it or not ) its all about safety. Your safety as it happens.
Now you can talk about freedom of choice but the simple fact is that ladders are dangerous. Anyone who uses a ladder every day can be in no real doubt.
If this law saves any of you from death or serious injury
then it has my vote. Even if you don't agree.
Its only a job after all.
Whats the problem?

Posted by stevekennedy (stevekennedy), 3 April 2004

on 04/02/04 at 15:14:23, simonb wrote:

You know what anything to do with Europe is like - something might happen in a few years. Even if it does who is going to enforce it?
They can't even stop illegal immigrants because they have no staff.
There's not enough Police to catch burglars.
So you can be safe with your ladder for years.
Even if you did get 'caught' up a ladder you would only get a warning. So you could then think about alternatives

The lawyers will enforce it through litigation. The threat of compensation claims will put most employers and householders off of ladders. ALso, due to this compensation culture, insurance might become even more of a problem. If your ladder falls on someone else, then you will have to pay compensation of thousands of pounds. If it kills them, you will also go to jail Sad

The choice we all have is whether we are willing to take that risk. Some customers are nieve and unaware of the risks. But, as more cleaners get pole systems, you can bet that the public will become more informed on such matters!

Posted by WavieDavie (WavieDavie), 3 April 2004

Hi JSP

Have you got one from Broxburn?
I certainly do, and very happy with it too.

Do you think they are interested in giving Demos?
I had a demo from Peter at one of his customers' premises, but I think he's more into the production and sales of his systems now and isn't "hands-on" any longer.

Give him a call, and tell him to send on my commission Wink

I don't use it on all that many jobs, I consider it another string to my bow at present, but we'll see what happens with the local council enforcing regulations in the future.

All the best for whatever you decide on.

Posted by sw_windows (sw_windows), 3 April 2004

on 04/02/04 at 19:41:49, Vince Green wrote:

Posted by sw_windows (sw_windows), 3 April 2004

on 04/02/04 at 19:41:49, Vince Green wrote:

the point is, is the undemocratic EU going to ban everything that is dangerous ie playing rugby ,driving cars, scuba driving, working with electric, working near water etc etc i can go on.
if i want to use ladders on someones private property and they are happy to let me , who is going to stop me and if they try surely thats a breach of our human rights.

anyway, i havent read any background info on this,so what is the actually truth ,is it all ladders or only at certain heights when the "law" applies

Posted by Silly_Philly (Philip Hanson), 3 April 2004

Quote:

anyway, i havent read any background info on this,so what is the actually truth ,is it all ladders or only at certain heights when the "law" applies

As this seems to be a controversial issue, my best advice is that you read the proposals and decide for yourself on the best course of action.

They are here:

www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf

If you're still none the wiser, contact your local HSE office, and they will be able to help.

Quote:

You know what anything to do with Europe is like - something might happen in a few years.

Page 30 of the HSC document (linked to above) sets out the timetable for the UK's adoption of this directive:
Quote:

Made : 2004
Laid Before Parliament : 2004
Coming into force : 2004

Again, my advice to everyone is to READ THE DOCUMENT.

Quote:

is the undemocratic EU going to ban everything that is dangerous

Just to set the record straight, The members of the European Parliment (or MEPs as they are known) are democratically elected.

Its interesting that many people moan about EU laws, but In this country less than 20% of the population bothered to vote for a candidate at all!

-Philip

Posted by D.Salkeld_Ltd (D.Salkeld_Ltd), 3 April 2004

Hi all,

I've read with interest all the posts on this subject and took a look at the draft proposals.

When I first started I went out with a couple of cloths a bucket of water and a ladder a customer lent to me to start me of. No problems at all.

A couple of years ago I was employing and paying £350 per yaer for Employers liability and Public liability was only £45 Now Insurance is treble the price and Employers is like rocking horse poo.

When these regulations are in force the insurance companies won't insure you unless you have complied to the letter. Therefor you will be Ok so long as you don't have an accident or any one else involved doesn't try to sue you.

The regulations say that where ever an alternative to ladders is available it must be used. Well there is: WFP. Well wether we nlike it or not some smart arsed lawyer is going to prove we should have used an alterative and the Insurance will drop you like a deadly spider.

Personaly I have gone through more hastle in the past year than any other time in16 years of window cleaning. Thanks to your advise I managed to find reasonable EL insurance. Now here I go again with the dilemer WFP or not?

I agree with you Philip. We have got to take alternatives to our old faithfull friend the ladder seriously and bite the bullet if we are going to survive in this game. For the first time in this trade I am faced with having to make a seriuose financial commitment. But only the seriouse professionals are going to survive and that will be better in the long run as we will be treated with respect and be able to damand a decent payment for our profession. It will get rid of the "cowboys"!

Posted by Spoonbill1970 (Spoonbill1970), 4 April 2004

Yes,
I agree. Started in 1987, when an England win in the Carribean was as far off as WFP's, and the "falling off ladder" scenario has never been far from my mind since then.

Safety is the issue. We will have to bite the bullet. I personally hope the local authority enforces the law in a way that they have failed to do so with licenses up here. Cowboys are everywhere, keeping prices down.
I don't fancy having to change lang established work practices, but at the end of the day (sorry for the cliche) Embarassed

the cost of a wfp will be about the same as a years insurance (at FED rates). Not bad if you ask me. I'm getting older and the law of averages states that SOMETIME in the next 30 years, I'm going to take a fall.

Thanks Wavie Davie, will give Broxburn Cleaning equipment a call and mention Dalzell Cleaning! - You never know! Grin

JSP

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