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Why Use Colour Change †De-Min Resin?

Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 25 December 2003
Technical question for all pole operators to think about:
Some manufacturers use colourchange resin cartridges in their pure water machines to indicate the quality of water coming out of their machines. Bearing in mind colourchange resin costs considerably more than non-colourchange resin, yet does exactly the same job and is no better or no worse than non-colourchange resin at demineralising water ie. reducing TDS, why is colourchange resin used at all? To use an analogy, lets assume a TDS meter is a wrist watch. If someone asked you the time, would you walk outdoors and look for the position of the sun? and say, its about 3pm, or would you check your watch? Similarly, if someone asked you whether your pure water machine was producing good quality water?, would you look at the colourchange filter and say yeah, must be, its still got some life left because the filter has not entirely changed colour, or would you get your TDS meter out, and check it?
†I guarantee if anyone rings up any bona-fide "Water Treatment Company" and asks "what is the correct, accurate, reliable, foolproof way of measuring TDS in water, in the field" and they dont say " a portable TDS Meter" , I'll eat my hat.
†This begs the question, why use colourchange resin at all? Replies/comments not on a post card (Save the Trees Please Smiley) but on this forum
Dom
Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 25 December 2003
Do you sell the item in question Huh and what is the difference in price  for a bag Huh  Do you know its xmas day , you should be with your loved ones Cool
Posted by jonesy5 (jonesy5), 25 December 2003
You should be with them every day why only one day! Undecided
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 25 December 2003
Majestic
Brodex sell everything.! I'm not trying to sell anything in particular, just give good technical advice. Just tucked the last 3 of my loved ones in bed, cracking day, just doing a bit of surfing to chill out, and thanks for the sentiment..!
Jonesy5
Thats good advice for everyone..!
cheers Dom
"proper crimbo"
Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 26 December 2003
Hi Dom,
          What size tank will fit in a Escort 55 van Huh And how long would the water in this last  Huh

Steve
Posted by pure_genius (pure_genius), 27 December 2003
dom

Why use colour change resin?

Are you suggesting that the companies that supply colour change resin are not bona-fide water treatment specialists? Huh

or shall i translate that from the dom dictionary its crap and its not on our systems we sell!!

have a guiness its christmas!!!!! †Cool

† † †
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 27 December 2003
Pure Genius
Sorry Genius, you,ve not read the article properly. Brodex do sell Colourchange resin. The article clearly asks a bona fide question, neutral, no sales pitch, about why use it at all, because of the cost implications to users. If you feel that the article is biased in some way, I dont think you are following the thread. Have another Guiness and try again...!
Dom
Posted by Pure_2o (Pure_2o), 27 December 2003
Dominatrix - Is that another part of the Brodex service portfolio Huh!?  

On this occasion Dom I must agree with you, the most efficient way of testing the output of any pure water system is by using a TDS meter.

At Pure 2O we too use standard MB 400 virgin resin in our industry standard bottle change systems and wouldn't suggest using anything different.

A TDS reading gives the user "peace of mind", as does crash testing !

Finally, I'd like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a happy xmas ( I know it's a bit late ! ) and a prosperous new year.

Cheers, back to the vodka !    Grin
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 27 December 2003
Steve Lowe
Hi Steve, good question, but unfortunately the answer is not as straightforward as it may appear. Payloads are a contentious issue, as the numerous van maufacturers, (in fierce competition with each other), tend to use payloads as a marketing tool and hence, you've got to tread carefully when selecting a new or used van.
Some manufacturers give you a payload figure, but neglect to tell you that it excludes the drivers weight,passengers weights, a full tank of fuel, factory fitted accessories such as bulkheads, roofbars etc.
Therefore the best way to approach your original question, is to do a bit of maths first and ask yourself what do I need to carry on a daily basis, apart from any pure water cleaning equipment.? eg. ladders,(hence roofrack.!) buckets, hand tools, cleaning chemicals, washers/other cleaning equipment and very important,the maximum number of people who will be in the vehicle at any one time. Manufacturers allow 75kg approx per person as payload contribution and approx 1Kg per Litre of fuel tank capacity (thats about 10lb per gallon in the old money.!)
Only you know what else your business needs to carry on a daily basis, so you can see that the onus leans back towards the operator, in deciding what size machine can be accomodated, after the weight of your static payload(ie. staff/equipment/consumables etc) has been calculated.
 The exact payload of your particular van can be established from manufacturers data and usually from owners manual. The vin plate will also provide information on max gross weights/etc. and may list max payload as "max gross weight", though this appears to be something of a grey area, as even after a conversation with the DOT representative in the north of England who is responsible for weighbridge roadside checks, it is clear each individual installation should be investigated thoroughly, as anomolies in the whole process can and will occur. Axle loads are again a major issue and the positioning of heavy secured loads paramount in complying with regulations and maintaining the vehicles balance.
 Once you have established your "static payload" you are in a position to look for suitable machines. Remember, the accessories associated with pure water cleaning can be heavy (eg. wet 50m hose on trolley-~15Kg) so if you think you need to carry lots of trolleys, they weigh more wet than dry and if you carry a full pole spread, regardless of manufacturer, it all adds up.
 Water weighs (for all intents and purposes) exactly 1Kg per Litre, whether it be pure water/tap water/spring water, its all the same weight.
 Different machines, of varying design and construction, will obviously vary in weight, so seek manufacturers advice for "wet max weight" figures.
 I hope this goes some way to answer your question and with regard to hours available from a certain amount of pure water, most manufacturers quote between 4-6 man/hrs @300L-8-10 man/hrs @600L and 12-16 man/hrs @1000L, but again this will vary on the nature of the work being done, eg. buliders cleans at one end of the spectrum, right down to etablished poled buildings.
Dom
Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 27 December 2003
Thanks Dom,
                  I will have to look into this in more detail Roll Eyes Does anyone on the forum use a 300ltr tank in an Escort 55 van Huh

Steve
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 27 December 2003
Pure 20
Since the entire water treatment industry agrees with the correct use of TDS meters, your agreement is welcome, but somewhat irrelevant.
†As discussed with your boss, I cant discuss crash testing on this forum and descriptions of features and benefits of OTT Pure20 equipment is best left to advertising mediums, such as trade journals and your web site etc. etc.
Any impartial input however, always welcome.
Dom
Posted by Bryan_Dolby (Bryan_Dolby), 27 December 2003
Steve
I have a 300 litre tank Fitted in a ford courier van
been using it for 6 months Grin
Only once had to go home to refill
Do not use all the time still use the tools
Contact me for more info Huh

Bryan
Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 27 December 2003
Thanks Bryan,
                     I will contact you after the Christmas break and try and get a bit of information from you.  

Steve
Posted by peterf (peterf), 27 December 2003
on 12/25/03 at 19:45:21, Dom Matrix aka BRODEX wrote:
Technical question for all pole operators to think about:
Some manufacturers use colourchange resin cartridges in their pure water machines to indicate the quality of water coming out of their machines. Bearing in mind colourchange resin costs considerably more than non-colourchange resin, yet does exactly the same job and is no better or no worse than non-colourchange resin at demineralising water ie. reducing TDS, why is colourchange resin used at all? To use an analogy, lets assume a TDS meter is a wrist watch. If someone asked you the time, would you walk outdoors and look for the position of the sun? and say, its about 3pm, or would you check your watch? Similarly, if someone asked you whether your pure water machine was producing good quality water?, would you look at the colourchange filter and say yeah, must be, its still got some life left because the filter has not entirely changed colour, or would you get your TDS meter out, and check it?
†I guarantee if anyone rings up any bona-fide "Water Treatment Company" and asks "what is the correct, accurate, reliable, foolproof way of measuring TDS in water, in the field" and they dont say " a portable TDS Meter" , I'll eat my hat.
†This begs the question, why use colourchange resin at all? Replies/comments not on a post card (Save the Trees Please Smiley) but on this forum
Dom

If someone didn't have a watch then they would not be able to look at the watch and tell the time.  If you don’t have it you cannot use it.

It may only cost £28.00 for a TDS meter, but some people just want a cheap DI cartridge to mess around with pure water, and the colour change resin is the cheapest way to do that.  Granted most people will go on and want a bigger system for purifying their water, and will end up with a meter of some sort, but until then the colour change resin is the cheapest way to go.

BTW a dual TDS meter comes as standard on all my small RO systems, as does a colour change DI resin cartridge.  Sometimes you do not realise it is getting so late because you have not checked your watch for a while, you see the position of the sun, this prompts you to look at your watch, and as you thought it is time you were doing what you had to do. Same as colour change resin it is just another visual aid to assure you that you are still producing pure water.

Peter


Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 28 December 2003
Peter F
It seems that some suppliers of the pole equipment discussed on this forum just cant help themselves and on the guise of providing technical information they have to mention a feature and benefit of a particular system they sell (See Peter F above/Anything OTT post etc etc) Fellas, this transparently negates your impartiality and your technical advice is tainted, so the good and the bad just get painted with the same brush and end up looking the same colour-do not underestimate the intelligence of the users of this forum and their ability to make informed decisions! It is patronising and will ultimately turn them off as prospective customers.
† Regardless of blatant product placement by Peter F, the fact that colourchange resin costs 2-3 times that of standard resin, clearly indicates which way to go if you want to save money and use pure water. If you want to experiment with pure water "messing about" as Peter calls it, the cheapest way is to buy a few gallons off a pole operator already established in your area. Talk to them nicely and I'm sure they will accomodate you at a much better rate than the local chemist and a lot cheaper than buying expensive colour change cartridges that you will end up throwing in the bin, because they are disposable!
Refillable cartridges are available, colourchange and standard, you'll have to root them out, but they are without doubt the cheapest way to produce low volumes of pure water.
Hopefully this impartial advice helps point people in the right direction and remember, BRODEX sell everything, so our advice is not product driven, just technically and economically correct. † †
Posted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 28 December 2003
on 12/28/03 at 12:00:39, Dom Matrix aka BRODEX wrote:
Hopefully this impartial advice helps point people in the right direction and remember, BRODEX sell everything, so our advice is not product driven, just technically and economically correct.


Do you sell colour change de-min resin?

Mike

Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 28 December 2003
Mike
Yes Amongst others (BX softener/MB/SB etc) and its the most expensive one we sell.
Posted by peterf (peterf), 28 December 2003
on 12/28/03 at 12:00:39, Dom Matrix aka BRODEX wrote:
Peter F
It seems that some suppliers of the pole equipment discussed on this forum just cant help themselves and on the guise of providing technical information they have to mention a feature and benefit of a particular system they sell (See Peter F above/Anything OTT post etc etc) Fellas, this transparently negates your impartiality and your technical advice is tainted, so the good and the bad just get painted with the same brush and end up looking the same colour-do not underestimate the intelligence of the users of this forum and their ability to make informed decisions! It is patronising and will ultimately turn them off as prospective customers.

You should know all about that

on 12/28/03 at 12:00:39, Dom Matrix aka BRODEX wrote:
  Regardless of blatant product placement by Peter F, the fact that colourchange resin costs 2-3 times that of standard resin, clearly indicates which way to go if you want to save money and use pure water. If you want to experiment with pure water "messing about" as Peter calls it, the cheapest way is to buy a few gallons off a pole operator already established in your area. Talk to them nicely and I'm sure they will accomodate you at a much better rate than the local chemist and a lot cheaper than buying expensive colour change cartridges that you will end up throwing in the bin, because they are disposable!


Mines are refillable, and the customer gets the choice of colour change or non-colour change replacement resin.

What if there is not a pole operator in your area, or you don’t get on with them if they are?? Do you tell them Dom said you were to get it?

on 12/28/03 at 12:00:39, Dom Matrix aka BRODEX wrote:
Refillable cartridges are available, colourchange and standard, you'll have to root them out, but they are without doubt the cheapest way to produce low volumes of pure water.


So now you have changed your mind?

on 12/28/03 at 12:00:39, Dom Matrix aka BRODEX wrote:
Hopefully this impartial advice helps point people in the right direction and remember, BRODEX sell everything, so our advice is not product driven, just technically and economically correct.    


Yes and a pig just flew by my window.

Peter

Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 28 December 2003
Peterf
Do you crash test your products  Grin Cool
Posted by sham33 (sham33), 28 December 2003
Could i fit a 650 litre sytem in a Citroen Dispatch van?


Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 28 December 2003
Peter F
Refillable the cheapest way to produce small volumes of water on a regular basis. †For "messing around" very expensive per gallon. Pigs cant fly, neither can turkeys...(unfortunately for turkeys this time of year..festive humour..!)
Dom
Posted by Pure_2o (Pure_2o), 29 December 2003
Dom,

Why can't you discuss crash testing ?

You're surely not being a chicken, sorry i mean turkey are you ?! Wink

...or is it because you simply don't do crash testing, so can't compete effectively in this area ?

Straight answers only please !
Posted by peterf (peterf), 29 December 2003
on 12/28/03 at 14:24:06, Majestic wrote:
Peterf
Do you crash test your products  Grin Cool


Sorry Majestic, I thought I had answered this.

No but I would like to.  I have not been in the business long, although I have been selling trolley systems for a couple of years, I only sold my first van system less than a year ago, OTT were selling systems for many years before they got round to crash test their systems.

There was a meeting last month on water fed pole safety issues, I think hosted by the FED, but unfortunately I didn't know anything about it until it was past, seemingly there was less than half the system manufacturers in attendance.  I would have been there had I been invited, I am all for participating in any of these events.

Peter

Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
All Pole Users
Re. Crash Testing...Please refer to the latest press release from the NFMWGC...pureOTT, little tinkers just mischief making...! Poor Peters not up to speed yet, been left in the dark I'm afraid.
Dom
Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 29 December 2003
Why use colour change resin? This was the original question posed by Sean.

For the first three years the Reach & Wash system used regular MB400 in regular column cyclinders, each system was sold with a TDS meter. Generally we never hear from a customer unless they have a problem, usually the kind of problems we heard of in those days was when a customer would ring up and complain that their system was leaving spots on their customers windows. Our first question was; what is your TDS reading? Common answers where, d'know, lost the TDS meter, d'know the TDS meter is not working, d'know what is TDS?

Despite the training and despite issuing an instruction manual, window cleaners in general just want to get on with their work and pay little attention to maintenance of their machine. So we'd send them a new TDS meter in order to establish if the problem was down to water quality or some other factor. Meter reading comes back high, so we send out new filters and bag of MB400. All very well, but what has happened?

The customer was unable to use the machine with confidence while all this got sorted out, and once it was had to go back over some of his work in order to satisfy his customers who had complained. This situation does little for the reputation of the window cleaner nor the reputation of our Reach & Wash systems.

The solution was to make it a no brainer so we use colour change resin in a clear filter cartridge of our own design and manufacture (Doesn't a company that  manufactures its own filters that have been independently tested by the Water Research Council qualify as a water treatment company?). Now customers can see at a glance if their water quality is OK. This leads to a higher quality window cleaning service from Reach & Wash users than from users of other systems. In turn we get less complaints about water quality which means that our customers get less complaints about the quality of their window cleaning service. These days, on the rare occassion that a customer does ring our first question is; what colour is the colour change filter? if its not blue then the problem is very quick to resolve and the customer has less down time, he also knows how to look out for the same problem in the future.

In window cleaning time is money not the cost of one type of resin over another. TDS meters go out of calibration, get lost, broken, stolen, dropped into buckets of water. Colour change is quick, simple, delivers and causes less down time, and because of this works out to be much, much cheaper. If the old way was any good, then we'd still be doing it would'nt we?

Dom, we're IONIC SYSTEMS LTD not OTT any more!

regards

Reuben
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
To all Pole Users
To put everyones mind at rest regarding the use of TDS meters. They are half the cost of 1 disposable 30inch colourchange linear filter. They are the size of small tube of toothpaste, have an on/off button and a crystal clear display. They can be calibrated in 20seconds, in the field. They are the industry norm and to suggest anything else is misleading. If you can use a mobile phone, you can use a TDS meter and to suggest window cleaners cant master and cope with the technology, I find insulting to the Trade.
†Colourchange resin filters supplied from a variety of manufacturers/resellers that are non-refillable, are the most expensive way of using colourchange resin. If you are currently using disposable filters, not only should you be considering the financial impact on your wallet, but also the Environmental Impact these systems have. (landfill is getting scarce).
Source refillable cartridges/filters and you will be doing your bit for the environment, whether colourchange or standard resin, refillable is the logical choice, ask any environmentalist. Refillable filters are available from a variety of manufacturers.
Dom
Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 29 December 2003
on 12/29/03 at 13:21:51, Dom Matrix aka BRODEX wrote:
All Pole Users
Re. Crash Testing...Please refer to the latest press release from the NFMWGC...pure 20/OTT, little tinkers just mischief making...! Poor Peters not up to speed yet, been left in the dark I'm afraid.
Dom


Sean,

What do you mean... "little tinkers just mischief making...!" ?

Regards

Reuben
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
Any Readers
I refer the above gentleman to the press release from the NFMWGC;
if you want to see a copy of the press release from the official trade organisation that represents your interests, regarding the validity of "paid for" crash testing and its relative importance when selecting which manufacturer to deal with, please contact the NFMWGC direct or ask the above gentleman to post it verbatum on this site, to save you time. If any helpful readers want to do the same....
Again, for the record and hopefully the last time.... as mentioned on several ocassions, I can not discuss crash testing on this forum.  
Dom

Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 29 December 2003
Sean,

I'd like to clarify that Ionic's Linear colour change filters are in fact refillable. We encourage customers to return spent filters in return for a small refund, because we control the refill process we can ensure that the spent resin is disposed of in an environmentally friendly way and in complience with legislation. This protects our customers from the risk of prosecution that they may face if they dispose of spent resin themselves in an in appropriate way.

We do not encourage the dumping of spent resin that may arrise as a result of customers changing resin themselves.

By making our filter systems easier to use by the inclusion of a colour change DI filter we are not insulting the inteligence of those purchase them. In fact its intelligent window cleaners who choose them! For those who understand window cleaning as well as they understand chemistry, its not a cost issue, at £50 upwards per hour its downtime thats best avoided.

regards

Reuben
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
All Pole Operators
The maths just does'nt add up...!
£2 refund;
£10 carriage......
Dom
Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 29 December 2003
Sean,

The refund is more than £2, and we do not suggest that spent filters should be sent back to us.

You are wrong about the re-fill ability of our filters.

You are wrong about the refund value.

You are wrong about the means of return.

You are wrong about the meaning of the NFMWGC's press release.

You are wrong about the "blank faces" at the meeting that took place at Summerfield House on 3rd Dec 2003.

You are wrong about the validity of our product testing.

regards

Reuben
Posted by peterf (peterf), 29 December 2003
on 12/29/03 at 15:43:10, Reuben_Reynolds wrote:
Sean,

The refund is more than £2, and we do not suggest that spent filters should be sent back to us.

You are wrong about the re-fill ability of our filters.

You are wrong about the refund value.

You are wrong about the means of return.

You are wrong about the meaning of the NFMWGC's press release.

You are wrong about the "blank faces" at the meeting that took place at Summerfield House on 3rd Dec 2003.

You are wrong about the validity of our product testing.

regards

Reuben


Looks like poor Sean cannot get anything right.

Peter


Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 29 December 2003
Reuben,
Did OTT not do a crash test ,  Huh Cool
Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 29 December 2003
Yes,

OTT did undertake a crash test program at Thatcham to FMVSS-208 standard.

Regards

Reuben
Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 29 December 2003
Reuben,
Just had a look on your web site , saw the saftey video about crash testing  Cool
Posted by pdhanson (Silly Philly), 29 December 2003
If colour change resin is more expensive than normal resin, couldn't you have just a small (say 3 inch) section with the colour change resin, seperate from the ordinary resin to use as an 'indicator'?

then when the coloured resin changed, you would know to replace all of it?

Or am I missing something obvious?

By the way, does anyone know where its possible to get the two types of resin seperately? (not "mixed bed"?)

Silly
Posted by g_griffin (g_griffin), 29 December 2003
This is great! Cheesy

I haven`t a clue what you`re on about  Huh

But it`s great  Grin

            Gerry.
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
Silly
thanks for that input. You're starting to think like a water treatment engineer..! I think you could teach Reuben & Peter a few things...who candidly, "protest too much..!"
Keep it real..keep asking those questions..!
"Logic is a common denominator when pursued to the hilt with valid interrogation" † Winston Churchill
Dom
Posted by sham33 (sham33), 29 December 2003
I love this thread, i check it every day always brings a smile to my face  Wink
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
"The refund is more than £2, and we do not suggest that spent filters should be sent back to us." Reuben Reynolds PureOTTionic
Official policy .! , their words, Does this company not encourage recycling ?, is this an example of "environmentally unfriendly" products. I cannot judge, but I do think that this information should be discussed so that all readers can make their own informed decisions.
Dom
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
on 12/29/03 at 15:43:10, Reuben_Reynolds wrote:
Sean,

The refund is more than £2, and we do not suggest that spent filters should be sent back to us.

You are wrong about the re-fill ability of our filters.

Reuben


We do not recommend people try to refill factory sealed units in the field for safety reasons. (The glue used is heat set for the above manufacturers units)

Posted by dirkstar (dirkstar), 29 December 2003
this should be on tv ,kilroy,trisha etc ,springer.this makes good reading,and long may it carry on.im learning alot about these systems,just in time for when i take delivery on one.im just keepin it simple .and face the facts when i start using
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
Dirkstar,
Hi, thanks for the compliment. This is the first question I have ever posted on the site and its had over 650+ reads/hits since xmas day!(4 days) so it shows the level of interest that is generated when people want to find out about how to run their machines cost effectively.! Can anyone think of a good title for the next question? should we call it technical battles issue 2? I think you gauge the success of a site by activity and hopefully I will stimulate interest by throwing a few more "logs on the fire" for as long as I'm allowed...!
cheers Dom
Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 29 December 2003
God, I turn my back and what's going on on hereHuh?

We do waterfed work 5 days a week.   I find the colour change cartridges (and also the cartridge filters) much easier to use than storing bags of resin, messy filling and emptying and wondering what to do with the waste. (don't put it down the drain!)

This is all downtime, even it's it's your own spare time which could be spent doing something more enjoyable.  I just return them to the supplier when I'm up there.  Simple is best and the cost is not that much extra over the period of filter changes.

The meeting on Dec 3rd was very productive and should be the start of something positive for the industry.

Dom, whatever happened to the old adage of a professional not slating the competition?




Posted by jonesy5 (jonesy5), 29 December 2003
you better ask alex ferguson, or asda maybe safeway or honda, or for that matter any company, competion is good for all of us,  mmmmm maybe set up another window cleaning federation.........  is that possible
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
Fed Man
Good technical advice are our bywords and if users want to save money, we endeavour to give them the technical †solutions that are available in the marketplace, in order to fulfill their aspirations.
†Your experience of not noticing much difference between disposable and refillable filters, is probably dependent on how often you are changing the filters. If you were changing the filters you mention on a monthly basis, the savings on disposable over refillable could be near £600 per annum and I will forward you the calculations to prove the point outside of this forum if you require concrete proof.
†Obviously some people will put up with refilling a resin vessel for £50, believe me if someone paid me £50 for 10 minutes work, I'd be on it..!
†With regard to your point of what to do with the waste resin, it is inert, non-hazardous petroleum based resin. As a non hazardous waste, it is classed as low volume general Waste. You are right not to put it down the drain as insoluble solids are never a good idea unless you've got an account with Dyno-rod..!
†With regard to slating the competition, there are more than 2 players in the marketplace, yet my technical advice seems to evoke a personal response from 2 particular suppliers of that kit. If you follow my advice, it is clearly neutral, solid economics. Certain competitors like to use my name in order to personalise the debate, so if you can use your influence .I'd be grateful
Cheers Dom
Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 29 December 2003
Dom,

I guess I'm changing cartridges every 2 months or so, the last one has gone 3 months, probably due to better psi in the winter months, I think.

For me it's a bit like when we did office cleaning, we started off buying large bottles and manually decanting down to smaller containers.  Once established, we just bought the smaller containers ready to use in the first place and costed them in to the job for ease of use.  

Interesting your point on non-hazardous waste, I know you come from a water purification background. I'm not sure I feel comfortable putting them out with the trash or taking them down the tip, is this what you recommend your users do?  Is there any documentation to back this up?


Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 29 December 2003
Fed Man
We dont advocate putting 30inch disposable filters in the wheely bin; as discussed they are bulky, heavy and non biodegradable. Since they are uneconomic to return by courier/post (unless like yourself you are willing to make a special trip to your supplier) by their very nature, they are environmentally unsound. If I could use an analogy, if you sold electric kettles, pre-filled with water, but the lid was glued down and you could'nt open it, how long would it take a manufacturer to come up an electric kettle with a removable lid, so that you could refill it at point of use? †
† With regard to convenience of disposable colourchange filters,( from a variety of manufacturers) and forgive me for using another analogy, it used to be convenient to put mercury into soap, because it was cheap and killed bacteria very effectively. However, it also kills fish/cats/humans and everything else in the food chain just as effectively. To embrace environmental issues in a meaningful way, you must have the right information and if anyone can convince me that 30inch disposable filters are environmentally friendly, I'll buy them lunch at the Savoy (or preferably the Manchester hilton, its nearer.!) †
Dom
Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 30 December 2003
Sean,

1)I use your name out of professional courtesy.
2)Our filters are not disposable.
3)We do not suggest that customers post their spent filters back to us because there are more economical ways for them to be returned. And we do not suggest that they be placed in the bin.
4)We do not recommend the dumping of spent resin because said spent resin contains high levels of otherwise trace elements that are harmful to the environment if not disposed of properly.
5)We used to use the same DI methodology that you currently use, if it was the best solution for this particular application then weíd still be doing it!
6)Our customers like the colour change principle, thatís why they choose it.
7)Did anyone receive Seanís bottle of Scotch? I donít hold out much hope for Lunch at the Savoy so I wonít bother to educate you about the dumping of commercial waste in dustbins!

Regards

Reuben

Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 30 December 2003
on 12/29/03 at 15:19:57, Dom Matrix aka BRODEX wrote:
Any Readers
I refer the above gentleman to the press release from the NFMWGC;
if you want to see a copy of the press release from the official trade organisation that represents your interests, regarding the validity of "paid for" crash testing and its relative importance when selecting which manufacturer to deal with, please contact the NFMWGC direct or ask the above gentleman to post it verbatum on this site, to save you time. If any helpful readers want to do the same....
Again, for the record and hopefully the last time.... as mentioned on several ocassions, I can not discuss crash testing on this forum. †
Dom


Sean, only because you asked;

The Fedís press release refers to a number of legal documents, principally regulation 100 of the Road Vehicle (construction & Use) Regulations. It states; Loads must be secured so as not to cause a DANGER to persons in, on or outside of the vehicle.

It is true that no-where in the legislation does it specifically say that manufacturers of vehicle mounted water treatment systems must carry out crash testing in order to prove compliance with the above legislation. However, by carrying out such a test a manufacturer can demonstrate to their customers that their equipment does not pose a Danger to themselves or their employees in the even of even a minor accident at just 30mph, or even heavy braking, and so does comply with regulation 100.

Although the Road Traffic Act does not currently say that crash testing is mandatory, other legislation does provide for the need for manufacturers to undertake appropriate product testing. At Ionic Systems we believe that Crash Testing is appropriate for our products and even if it were not then we believe that we have a moral obligation to ensure the safety of our customers.

You suggested that I answer your question and I have, if you believe that the Federationís press release means that your company does not have to undertake crash testing. Please can you answer my earlier question that was;

If not by crash testing how should a manufacturer of vehicle mounted water tanks demonstrate that his equipment is safe and complies with regulation 100 above?

Regards

Reuben


Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 30 December 2003
My view point as an end user.

If I was choosing between two similar Pure Water systems and one had been crash tested by a recognised body in the motor industry, the tested system would definitely get my money, as I would view this as an additional benefit that would give me piece of mind with my employees. Leglislation does not currently exist to say that it's necessary, but that's not to say that it won't in the future.

Regardless of the right way or wrong way as things stand at present, it shows the manufacurer is concerned with the safety of it's customers and I think IONIC SYSTEMS should be applauded for making the first move at considerable investment cost to them.  If I was a Competitor I would seek to get in on this as well.  From a Sales point of view it may seem to give them an unfair advantage in the marketplace but aren't Unique Selling Points what sales are all about?


Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 30 December 2003
Fed ManThe original question was about colour change resin, so exactly why you want to talk about crash testing on this thread eludes me. As mentioned to other manufacturers, I can not discuss crash testing on this forum and being a NFMWGC representative, I thought you may appreciate the reasons why.
All Pole Users
In light of what is mentioned above, it would appear that if you purchase colour change 30inch Sealed filters from the above company, you are now obliged to treat it as Trade Waste. The implications for you as a user are enormous and I recommend you talk to your local Environmental Health Officer about this. I recommend you return all spent filters to the manufacturer once spent, who undoubtably have a local arrangement to deal with this "toxic waste". If you do not find it "convenient" to pop into the manufacturer to return the filters , may I suggest a refillable filter may be more convenient.
†On a lighter note, the Environmental implications of disposable filters touches a raw nerve in the industry and I'm sure readers will appreciate and be amused by the following comments, as several manufacturers "dance on hot coals" attempting to explain the convenience of using a near 10Kg sealed unit, too heavy to return by post, now confirmed as too dangerous to be tipped locally...and I †believed white elephants were extinct...!
Dom
Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 30 December 2003
Dom,

Crash Testing was mentioned in Reubens reply immediately previous to mine and also by you yesteday to which Reuben was replying.  I understand the restrictions on you both, I was giving my opinion to other readers as an end user.

Your point about the colour change refills being Trade Waste, if the resin isn't in your opinion, why is the whole unit? Because of the plastic cannister?  Is plastic now Trade Waste?
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 30 December 2003
All Pole Users
We have all seen the success of this question in promoting interest in Environmental issues, 750 hits after 4 full days. Please can operators make their opinions felt. Manufacturers have a vested interest. Your opinions on what way forward for the Environment is more important than theirs, because you buy the goods.! If you want environmentally friendly products, you've got to ask for them and accept no less.
 Only by asking and analysing can we give our children (& hopefully grandchildren) a fighting chance of saving their world from short sighted economics.
 You decide, you are in control.
Dom
Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 30 December 2003
Dom,

I am concerned about environmental issues and would like your answer.  As a pole user can you tell me, if resin isn't Trade Waste, why are the plastic cannisters?
Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 30 December 2003
on 12/29/03 at 15:19:57, Dom Matrix aka BRODEX wrote:
Any Readers
I refer the above gentleman to the press release from the NFMWGC;
if you want to see a copy of the press release from the official trade organisation that represents your interests, regarding the validity of "paid for" crash testing and its relative importance when selecting which manufacturer to deal with, please contact the NFMWGC direct or ask the above gentleman to post it verbatum on this site, to save you time. If any helpful readers want to do the same....
Again, for the record and hopefully the last time.... as mentioned on several ocassions, I can not discuss crash testing on this forum. †
Dom


Sean,

If you keep on bringing up the subject and ask for comment then I will oblige you. In any event I did not ask you to comment about crash testing, I asked for your comment about any alternative that you may suggest.

Regarding waste disposal you said; "With regard to your point of what to do with the waste resin, it is inert, non-hazardous petroleum based resin. As a non hazardous waste, it is classed as low volume general refuse, bin as normal".

You're the guy that says put it in the bin. We're the guys that did speak to the Environmental Health Officer which is why we encourage our customers to return spent resin filters so that we can dispose of their trade waste properly. Yes this does cost money, but by doing it the way we do we can limit the potential of a huge fine if you're caught dumping trade waste in the bin as you suggest!

What was it you said "get real".

regards

Reuben
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 30 December 2003
All Pole UsersRefillable seems unpopular with some and appears to be beyond some manufacturers who may have based their entire consumables business strategy upon it. They will catch up eventually.....maybe...
keepin it real like Homer,
Dom

MartinGiven your and my position within the industry, may I recommend we continue our dialogue outside of this forum where vested interests best lie?
Dom
Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 30 December 2003
"MartinGiven your and my position within the industry, may I recommend we continue our dialogue outside of this forum where vested interests best lie?
Dom"


Perhaps you can explain what you mean by this comment. Are you suggesting that your company has vested interests in the NFMWGC?

regards

Reuben
Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 30 December 2003
Dom,

It was a simple question, I am sure other readers are just as interested in the answer as I am.

As you have not answered my question I am now assuming there is no difference between resin in a plastic cannister or on its own, unless you can show me to the contrary.

This is something I am concerned about. Why shouldn't that be on this forum?
Posted by peterf (peterf), 30 December 2003
[quote author=Reuben_Reynolds link=board=Equipment;num=1072381521;start=40#57 date=12/30/03 at 14:03:24
Perhaps you can explain what you mean by this comment. Are you suggesting that your company has vested interests in the NFMWGC?

regards

Reuben [/quote]

I think what it means is, I have messed up again and I will not answer any more questions on that subject.

Peter


Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 30 December 2003
All Pole users
Just to put the record straight, de-min resin does not come under "Special waste regulations" for potable application. Plastic may or may not be a trade/non-trade-hazardous/non hazardous waste, there is no single answer.
Reusable filters are the way forward, but dont take my word for it, look around at other industries and make your own assumptions.
"Convenience vs Ecology" would make an interesting paper for an academic...!
Dom

Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 30 December 2003
Sean,

There is a single answer and that is that spent resin is trade waste. Our system for refilling filters ensures that spent resin can be disposed of properly. Please can you give"All Pole Users" some good advise that falls within the law regarding how they should dispose of spent resin/trade waste when they replace the resin themselves. This advise may save some pole users from the risk of prosecution.

regards

Reuben

Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 30 December 2003
All pole users
There is no single straight answer to the classification of non hazardous waste, (if only it were that simple.!) however, one thing is certain, if you cant refill something yourself it is effectively disposable.
To check for yourself the regulations regarding definitions on notifiable wastes, please refer to your local Environmental Health Dept if you have any concerns, or indeed the Environment Agencie's web site.
Remember, you as the user are ultimately responsible for disposing of any waste in a responsible manner and it is the manufacturers responsibility to ensure products are designed to minimise waste and wasteful practices (eg. excess freight handling etc). Current EEC directives require companies to comply and ultimately they will.
†To anyone interested in pursuing the philosophical merits of refillable Vs disposable, Greenpeace's site is very informative as is the WWF. Both have comprehensive link listings for those genuinely interested in Environmental Matters. There are some great screen savers to be had for free...check it out..!
Dom
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 31 December 2003
All Pole Users
In light of comments from competitors regarding refillable versus's disposable filters, mentioning no names...here we go again (for the last time?)
In BRODEX's testing of linear filters from several manufacturers, conducted in lab conditions at our Factory, Refillable 30ich filters lasted approximately 10% longer than equivilent colourchange units.
 Lab testing is part and parcel of water treatment and BRODEX 's credentials are unquestionable.
DOM
Posted by Reuben_Reynolds (Reuben_Reynolds), 2 January 2004
Dom,

Take your filters for independent testing at the Water Research Council and you'll find you get a more "real" result.

PS. why not post a picture of your laboratory?

Regards

Reuben
Posted by dirkstar (dirkstar), 4 January 2004
after all that what, are the users views on the brodex systems and ionic systems ?
Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 4 January 2004
on 01/04/04 at 19:56:46, dirkstar wrote:
after all that what, are the users views on the brodex systems and ionic systems ?


I think I would leave to the lawsuits are over Shocked
We've heard that before.............
I don't think I would buy a Brodex system off Dave Brent, if it went wrong, he'd direct me to the nearest Greenpeace or WWF complaints counter. He'd make a good politician though, he's not answered a straight question yet. Roll Eyes
Posted by sham33 (sham33), 4 January 2004
Talking of their systems has any 1 got or tried the Thermal Pure system from ionic yet?
Posted by poleman (poleman), 9 January 2004
a local pole company from dorset told me that his Thermal Pure system from ionic caught FIRE so you wont get me buying one


andy
dorset

fed member
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 9 January 2004
Poleman,
I've heard that too....but I cant talk about it for legal reasons.....! again.....!
Dom
Posted by pure_genius (pure_genius), 10 January 2004
Dom,

Why cant you talk about it?
If it is for legal reasons then that would suggest to me that it is not true?
I was thinking about having a hot water on mine when i get a system.
How do you heat the water on your systems is it Diesel like ott ?  

Posted by poleman (poleman), 10 January 2004
I can talk about it as i know the bloke how it happen to
Because it happen, it is a FACT.


ANDY
DORSET

FED MEMBER
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 10 January 2004
Pure Genius
for a guiness drinker you seem to take a big interest in the industry, yet when asked who you are, become a shrinking violet. I bet you're really craig mawlam of OTT or possibly a close friend. When you hide, dont expect answers.
Poleman
Be careful what you say, if you *art in a lift with an OTT rep, they threaten to sue....!
Dom
Posted by pure_genius (pure_genius), 10 January 2004
Dom,

I have an interest in the industry because i am looking to get a truckmount or a trailer in the spring. I have a limited budget and have learnt a bit on the forum. The banter between you and ott was quite amusing at times but is waring a little thin, i am sorry if i am little sceptical of sales people thats just me. I have bought a residential pole off ott last year to go with a DI bottle i got from tucker, i dont know the guys from ott i met an irish guy when i visited them he was pretty helpful.
When i am ready to buy i will gather all literature and prices maybe i will play you off against ott to get a good deal hey Cheesy  
Posted by poleman (poleman), 10 January 2004
[quote author=Dom Matrix aka BRODEX
if you *art in a lift with an OTT rep, they threaten to sue....!


Lips Sealed

andy
dorset

fed member
Posted by poleman (poleman), 10 January 2004
pure_genius

take your time its a lot to take in and lots of money for us window cleaners to pay out, i spend months working it all out, get all the free demos they all give out.


andy
dorset

fed member
Posted by pure_genius (pure_genius), 11 January 2004
Andy,

Thanks for the advice what type of system do you have?
Posted by sean_rimmer (Dom Matrix aka BRODEX), 11 January 2004
Poleman
Pure genius works for OTT, despite his protestations..!
tread carefully......legal suits hovering......!!! so I wouldnt mention the OTT customer whose van burnt out if I were you..!

"Speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits"

Isaiah ch.30, v10

Dom
Posted by pure_genius (pure_genius), 12 January 2004
Pole man,

In response to you wanting to know who I am my name is Kevin James I live in a little place called Efailwen in West Wales I work 30 hours a week as my main job.
I do Window cleaning in my spare time and weekends to boost my income from my main job. I have been using at pole system to try and quicken the time on houses so I can take on more work in the small time frame I have.
I have found I donít always have a water supply on site to run my trolley system so hence why my interest in truck mounts and trailer systems.

Eventually I would like to be able to go full time on the windows but with family commitments I cannot afford to give up my job yet.

It has been good hearing how others window cleaners have built there rounds, you say you have been window cleaning 20 years you must have built up a good business and enjoying a good living from this.

Thanks

Kevin        

Posted by pure_genius (pure_genius), 14 January 2004
Pole man,

I asked you what pole system you had, i wait your reply

Kevin  


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