Window Cleaning Issues - Canvassing, pole systems, pricing, problems, etc.
N.F.M.W & G.CPosted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 5 August 2003
Hi can anyone give me any feed back of the National Federation of Master Window & General Cleaners.
I have been looking into joining and to me seems quite good as well as a good thing to join to help you to be Recognised as a professional company but today I had a stand up argument with someone who totally knocked it and slaged it of I replyed to this shinner had no chance of joining as he had for one never held insurance and when worked worked in such a way to endanger him self as well as the public. He replyed it was not a recognised company.
Could anyone please let me know if it has helped them in any way.
Cheers Alan (shinnyshinner)Posted by pussycatz (HCS), 13 August 2003
I have been a member for approx 4 years and they are an excellent organisation. You have the opportunity to purchase insurance and equipment through them as well as being able to use the logo on your literature etc. You get to hear about new products and ways of working before anyone else. Something that is priceless in any business.Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 13 August 2003
Cheers for the reply is the federation recognised by other company’s you have done work for, as seen a lot of different company's use the logo.
Cheers AlanPosted by pintuck (pintuck), 27 August 2003
What professional group was the non-federation member a member of? If none then the Federation member would have full insurance with public liability to cover in his price.Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 28 August 2003
Thats is so out of order Polepro when did you hear that?
All those different businesses out there from one-man bands to shop retailers to cleaning for office blocks. Is the N.F.M.W &G.C a recognised organisation? Is this organisation so well known by different companies out there as being a member would this help to pick up different and better jobs to contracts as if not in it.
I have been cleaning windows for coming up to 16 years with a break for 2 years and not once have I heard companies out there ask if I was a member can this federation help you pick up better work/ contracts? Posted by rsaxon7 (rsaxon7), 29 August 2003
haha! its funny how the 'national headquarters' for this organisation is a little house in reddish that you would never even notice. it took me ages to find it at first. i wouldn't dream of joining the federation. but they are the best equipment shop for windowcleaners in manchester. but.......still they don't have synthetic wash leather. thats fibers sandwiched between 2 layers of latex. anyone help me here?Posted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 16 September 2003
as I am on the board of the Federation if there is anyone who would like an info pack please call the
National Fedaration of master window cleaners
on 0161 432 8754 where the staff will only to pleased
to help! I can tell you the people on the board do work hard for there members,not only trade shows but behind the the shows as well,admin etc,board meetings
go on for hours everytime,it is not all fun!
Terry.Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 16 September 2003
Hi welcome terry
just one question All those different businesses out there from one-man bands to shop retailers to cleaning for office blocks. Is the N.F.M.W &G.C a recognised organisation? Is this organisation so well known by different companies out there as being a member would this help to pick up different and better jobs to contracts as if not in it.
I have been cleaning windows for coming up to 16 years with a break for 2 years and not once have I heard companies out there ask if I was a member can this federation help you pick up better work/ contracts?
Cheers Mate AlanPosted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 16 September 2003
Shinny,the Fed has been going since around 1947 ish,
the Fed is blessed by the Health and safety as a reconised orginization,we have a safety film out,
that I help to make in 1999,there is a Federation for most things in life! this is our one! you can only join if you have proper cover insurance,you can get this from the federation,at a cheaper rate,if your a member.you also will get a mag,logos to fix on your van,etc give them a call 0161 432 8754Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 16 September 2003
I got the fed pack a while ago what sort of person can sign the part about knowing you for 5 years is it anyone or only a proffesional person cheers again
AlanPosted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 16 September 2003
Alan, doctors is normally good one,we all get ill,Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 16 September 2003
Cheers terry was not sure if it was a ref from say a job you have been cleaning
Cheers again AlanPosted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 16 September 2003
Alan how about a vicar do you go to church,or police man! teacher!Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 16 September 2003
I have received jobs through the Federation in the past, one was too big, a weeks work which I passed on to someone else. The other jobs worked out fine. Just let them know which areas of work you do and you will be put on the appropriate list. Customers do contact the Federation!Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 16 September 2003
Cheers for your replys
AlanPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 17 September 2003
Until April this year i served as the NFMW&GC's National Education amd Training Officer for 6 years. I was expelled from the Federation's governing body for, "being discourtious to the general secretary, chairman and vice chairman". Given that experience it is self evident that i dont agree, to put it mildly, with all the Federation does and stands for. Even so i would recommend that anyone with a serious involvement in window cleaning joins. For the small sum involved in the subscrption fee, despite its failings, the Federation gives value for money. Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 22 September 2003
Hi andrew
Does the fed have its own training program
Thanks for your honesty
AlanPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 28 September 2003
Does the fed have its own training program
Alan,
Depends on how you define "training"! If you mean mentoring or coaching, the answer is NO!
Some training or instruction can be derived from the Fed's mag. Window Talk. From time to time the Fed arranges generic health and safety seminars at its head office. Seminars are a feature of the Fed's annual trade show. I would especially recommend the trade show health and safety seminar usually delivered by the Fed. H&S officer, Andrew Lee - a very knowlegable guy, with all the latest info on the subject. Please note however that i am not recommending these as a substitute for formal certified health and safety training. The Fed also has a very good training video for ladders (available to members and none members).
My duties as Education and Training Officer were limited to representing the Fed's interests within the Cleaning Industry National Training Organisation, and with regard to such things as N/SVQ's. I beleive i put my best effort into providing a formal training programme for the Fed, but i never enjoyed the full backing of the Executive Committee for that - tried several times! I now do with others what i would like to have done with the Fed.
AndrewPosted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 28 September 2003
Cheers for reply intersting do you miss the fed and do you feel you could of made a difference in the avenues you were working in
AlanPosted by samm (samm), 29 September 2003
So far everything I heard on this forum about the NFMW&GC, I'm far from sold they;
1/offer insurance - easier to get it far cheaper
2/Offer tools & equip. - far cheaper elsewear & good advice
3/ mag of ads -
most people say on here say their customers (mine certainly haven't) heard of the NFMW. there is nothing giving advice on commercial work, only residentiual and the only person to mention getting work through them is FED MAN, but he promotes them so much he must have a slice of the membership fee pie like Terry burrows.
Is there anyone with genuine unbiased benifits they had by joining? (plz dont reply with the feds sales pitch)
I think this forum has loads offer, shouldn't the fed, taking the membership fees, be the one providing good & services/ideas to the many wc's.
SamPosted by Majestic (Majestic), 29 September 2003
I have been a Fed Member for a couple of years now and I think that being a member has gained me work .I have priced a few contract jobs and although I did not get all of them the ones that I did get said that one of the reasons I got the job was because I was a Fed Member. I can only go from my experience and I think that it is money well spent . Before I found the forum if I had a problem I would phone the Fed office and 9 out of 10 times they could help, as for The Fed Man and Mr Burrows having a slice of the pie 
I think like me they are just proud to be members 
Posted by Central (Central), 29 September 2003
Ive just joined the federation and got a good price from them for insurance - just £84 per year. Ive not recieved all my bits and pieces back yet but from what I've read you also get put on the council tender list for your area so you can quote for all the council work. The way I look at it if you get 1 job per year it will have paid for itself and possibly a whole lot more - add that to all the benefits of magazines, trade shows, lower insurance, cheaper tools of the trade - I am very happy to have joined and hope it works out well.Posted by Andrew (Andrew), 30 September 2003
« Reply #20 on: Sep 28th, 2003, 4:19pm »
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Cheers for reply intersting do you miss the fed and do you feel you could of made a difference in the avenues you were working in
Alan
do you miss the fed
A difficult question to answer in a few brief words!I am still a member, so there are aspects of the Fed i still enjoy. From a selfish point of view i got all that iwas likely to get (in terms of contacts, knowlege and experience) from membership of its Executive Committee a long time ago, so i dont miss it from that angle either. Perhaps what i miss the most is the confidence of others when it come to criticising the Fed. Previously i could be critical behind closed doors at a Executive Committee meeting, and frequently influence a decision. When you get thrown out of a committee, criticisms after that get to be viewed as "sour grapes", so what could be a valuable observation is almost automatically rubbished and unrecognised. Not long ago, a respected member of the cleaning industry for example, called my recently published criiticisms regarding the Fed, a vendetta. They were nothing of the kind of course! I only wish the best for the Federation.
do you feel you could of made a difference in the avenues you were working in
I beleive i have and continue to make a difference in the avenues i am working. I have Edu-Clean now, so the education and training i wanted to provide through the Fed, i now provide through Edu-Clean.
Edu-Clean is a registered and approved British Institute of Cleaning Science - City & Guilds training provider. We specialise in providing training to National Occupational Standards, either in bespoke form or as NVQ's. The NVQ's we are registered to deliver are at Levels 1 and 2: window, glass and facade cleaning; carpets and soft furnishings; food premises; highways and land; passenger transport; building interiors. Our training/assessing is done where its meant to be, not in a college class room, or training centre, but in the workplace. Providing our costs will be met, we are happy to travel anywhere in the UK to provide the service.
The excellence of Edu-Clean has been recognised outside of the cleaning industry as well as in. For instance in 2000 we were called to the Millennium Dome to receive a special award for the way in which we cascade our expertise to others. By invitation I currently serve on the National Adult Learner's Forum - a body set up by NIACE (National Institute of Adult Continuing Education) to monitor the interests and concerns of adult learners. I use material provided by the Cleaning Industry National Traing Organisation to benefit the adult learners we have in the cleaning industry.
In the recent past I personally helped to produce all of the cleaning NVQ's currently in use - working with the Cleaning Industry National Training Organisation both as a member of its Governing Body, and as an expert contributor in my own right.
Hope i have provided the kind of answer you want Alan 
Thanks for your interest!
AndrewPosted by Central (Central), 30 September 2003
How much do these Window Cleaning NVQ's cost, how long do they last and are they likely to give good tips to increase speed and still keep the quality even for people with some experience?Posted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 1 October 2003
Dear Sam,I can honestly say nor myself or the Fed
man do not have any money gains what so ever!
in the Federation by membership fees!,Andrew Walker
would understand that one!
you cannot make comments with out knowing the facts!
you do not!
I have been off line for a week,I have had 3 virus attacks,all different!
so sorry for not replying to all questions from all forum
members 
Posted by Polepro (Polepro), 1 October 2003
I understand that the Fed is a not for profit organisation, therefore one would expect them to put any money it makes back into the industry. Can Terry or Fed man tell us why it is that the Federation has spent over £100,000 on buying stocks and shares and still has a bank balance of more than a further £100,000. According to the statement of account handed out at this years AGM the Feds net worth is over £350,000. So with all this wealth why did they need to put the membership fee up in price? The main question is why can't the Federation put this money back into the industry, who is going to benefit from all of this hoarding? Don't the Federation know what to spend the money on? if they don't know what to spend it on do they actually know anything about the industry at all?Posted by Polepro (Polepro), 10 October 2003
Looks as thought my last post was too difficult for Mr T or Fed man to answer?
TomPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 10 October 2003
WINDOW CLEANING NVQ'S
How much do these Window Cleaning NVQ's cost, how long do they last and are they likely to give good tips to increase speed and still keep the quality even for people with some experience?
The answers to these questions will vary according to the person or business asking them. and who it is you ask them of. The way your questions are answered here assumes that the NVQ will be delivered as its meant to be - in the course of your every day work, not in some training centre, or college class room.
How much do these Window Cleaning NVQ's cost
At Edu-Clean we have not have a pre-set fee. We work all over the country (except Scotland where they have SVQ's instead) so costs vary widely according to where we might be. An experienced cleaner will require less input than someone new usually, so previouly acquired compitence also has bearing on price. Groups of window cleaners, rather than individuals, are more economical to work with also. The question of how much trianing will cost needs to be balanced with your assessment of how much not getting training might cost you also. Training may cost money but not getting training may cost you more.
how long do they last
Not sure what you mean by "last". NVQ's like other formal qualifications stay with you for life. Like other areas of compitence though future training or a refresher course of some sort is a wise investment from time to time - with health and safety in fact an essential!
City & Guilds require a minimum of 10 weeks between intial registration with them and their willingness to provide the resulting NVQ certificate of compitence. Time required to obtain an NVQ is minimal as you are assessed performing your usual work work activities. Some time is needed at the start for induction and during delivery to provide explanations. Delivery may take longer if you are deemed incompitent, or at risk in some area, or if the employer requires more than the NVQ be delivered.
are they likely to give good tips to increase speed and still keep the quality even for people with some experience?
Frankly i would never offer a NVQ as a means to increase speed. For many they may do. Given the focus on health and safety with in the NVQ however, in certain respects they may in fact slow you down a little. If you have people in your life who love you i am sure they would be grateful for that. My personal experience as someone with an NVQ is that speed is far less impotant to me than it was. Once i learned to market my NVQ i found that facilities managers were releived to know i had it and were willing to pay me more. In delivering NVQ's, as with myself when i first obtained one, people do generally know what they are doing, and in the main may be skilled and compitent in what they do. NVQ's are very good business assessment tools however and serve to highlight areas of weakness, and/ or opportunites for improvement.
Please let me know if you have further questions.
Andrew from Edu-Clean UKPosted by Polepro (Polepro), 10 October 2003
Andrew, Very informative. How many window cleaners have done the NVQ and have the full qualification?
TomPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 10 October 2003
How many window cleaners have done the NVQ and have the full qualification?
Thats a question i cant really answer and its not one i focus on. I wouild imagine that BICS, the NTO or C&G would be able to tell you if you asked them though.
So far as i am aware there are still very few window cleaners with the full NVQ, but i know from our own work that far more others use them. To explain one situation, for example, in our experience the people who push for window cleaning NVQ''s are not window cleaners themselves but facilites managers who want the competence their contracted window cleaners independantly assessed. We go along there using the NVQ method but the 10 week interval C&G require is too long for them - they need and want the evidence more than the certificate so they can continue as soon as possibel with their contract. So we would go through the process, provide the evidence (or needed improvement) and issue an Edu-Clean certificate for them.
Andrew from Edu-Clean UKPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 10 October 2003
u]NFMW&GC ACCOUNTS[/u]
I understand that the Fed is a not for profit organisation, therefore one would expect them to put any money it makes back into the industry. Can Terry or Fed man tell us why it is that the Federation has spent over £100,000 on buying stocks and shares and still has a bank balance of more than a further £100,000. According to the statement of account handed out at this years AGM the Feds net worth is over £350,000.
Its easy to fall into the trap of thinking of the Fed as a none profit organisation. Section 4 of the rule book shows clearly that if funds are available, but there is no immediate use for them, then they can be invested for corporate profit. Like it or not the membership endorse this approach, and did so as recently as the last AGM
I found this very difficult when i served as an Executive Committee member. The Fed has no formal business plan as we in business understand business plans. The Fed is almost entirely reactive in the way it operates. Everything that happens is in response to quarterly committee meetings where an agreed response to everything that is current at that time is agreed. That in turn sets the agenda for the next 3 months. Longer term pre-determination of costs and plans for investing the remainder of funds in the membership and its interests just does not exist. The result is a perceived surplus for further investment.
Caught in this system there might be an individual committee member who rather than seeing the enrichment of the organisation as the desired goal, actually wants to do something for the membership.
It concerned me as an Executive Committee member that we used the same auditor year in and year out. That might be an arrangement that’s convenient and comfortable for the Fed administration but my view is that an occasional change of auditor would be more in keeping with the memberships interests.
So with all this wealth why did they need to put the membership fee up in price?
The Fed raise the sub fee each year because it’s considered best practice. The view is that a regular increase grooms the membership for the next one. If more than a year went by without an increase the fear is that when the next raise did arrive the membership would not be mentally conditioned for it and might complain.
The main question is why can't the Federation put this money back into the industry, who is going to benefit from all of this hoarding? Don't the Federation know what to spend the money on? if they don't know what to spend it on do they actually know anything about the industry at all?
Given what i explain above these questions are irrelevant to the Fed. The Fed rules allow for present monetary practice and the membership approves.
Andrew from Edu-CleanPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 10 October 2003
I can honestly say nor myself or the Fed man do not have any money gains what so ever! in the Federation by membership fees!,Andrew Walker would understand that one!
I have no idea who "Fed man" is!
No member of the Fed Executive Committee receives commission from membership fees.
Executive Committee members are however paid honoraria and milage costs when representing the Federation (Rule 8/1). These are raised annually according to inflation.
Andrew from Edu-CleanPosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 11 October 2003
Looks as thought my last post was too difficult for Mr T or Fed man to answer?
I was on holiday Tom, contrary to the belief of some on here there is life after window cleaning 
You seem to know a lot about the Fed being a non-member, were you a member before?
Executive Committee members are however paid honoraria and milage costs when representing the Federation
Yes and that's it, some of the days are long and some work is undertaken on an unpaid basis, Andrew can vouch for this!
The Federation is the main, officially recognised body we as window cleaners have. If you want to change anything and be heard, GET INVOLVED!!!! 
Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 11 October 2003
Hi Fed Man,
Out of interest who is Fed Man 
StevePosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 11 October 2003
Out of interest who is Fed Man
Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 11 October 2003
Well i saw you were the well fed man and i was trying to think of the biggest
StevePosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 11 October 2003
Well i saw you were the well fed man and i was trying to think of the biggest
Nope, back on the Slim Fast Posted by Polepro (Polepro), 13 October 2003
Andrew, thanks for your informative reply about the Feds money.
Section 4 of the rule book shows clearly that if funds are available, but there is no immediate use for them, then they can be invested for corporate profit. Like it or not the membership endorse this approach, and did so as recently as the last AGM
It seems that excess funds have been available for many years with no plans about how best to spend them in the interests of the industry. Out of the 2400 or so members how many of them endorsed this approach at the last AGM?
The Fed has no formal business plan
I'm surprised!
The main question is why can't the Federation put this money back into the industry, who is going to benefit from all of this hoarding? Don't the Federation know what to spend the money on? if they don't know what to spend it on do they actually know anything about the industry at all?
Given what i explain above these questions are irrelevant to the Fed.
Given that questions about the Fed putting the money it makes from the members back into the industry are irrelevant, does'nt that make the Federation irrelevant to the industry?
TOMPosted by Polepro (Polepro), 13 October 2003
Andrew, thanks for your answers about trianing, it sounds as though finding out how many window cleaners have the NVQ qualification may be difficult. Can you tell us how many of your clients have achieved the NVQ qualification?
TomPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 17 October 2003
Andrew, thanks for your answers about trianing, it sounds as though finding out how many window cleaners have the NVQ qualification may be difficult. Can you tell us how many of your clients have achieved the NVQ qualification?
Sorry i thought i had replied to this one but seems not
If you mean full accreditation the answer to this question is none!
The people i have used NVQ's with either want just a few of the units (unit accreditation) or to use the NVQ system as a means of independant assessment.
I am personally happy with that.
Andrew from Edu-CleanPosted by Polepro (Polepro), 17 October 2003
Andrew,
Thank you for your frank and honest reply, after all your hard work it must be a disapointment that the NVQ does not seem to have been promoted well. Reading your other posts its clear that your a reputable chap a sad loss to the Fed.
Why do you think that their is not so much interest in anyone going for the whole NVQ qualification, is it too hard? Why don't the Fed promote the NVQ?
TomPosted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 17 October 2003
Andrew,
Am i right in thinking that the full NVQ for window cleaners is about £1000
Steve LowePosted by Andrew (Andrew), 19 October 2003
Thank you for your frank and honest reply, after all your hard work it must be a disapointment that the NVQ does not seem to have been promoted well. Until I joined this forum I'd never even heard of the window cleaning NVQ. Reading your other posts its clear that your a reputable chap a sad loss to the Fed. Why do you think that their is not so much interest in anyone going for the whole NVQ qualification, is it too hard? Why don't the Fed promote the NVQ?
Tom
after all your hard work it must be a disapointment that the NVQ does not seem to have been promoted well.
In general terms I feel a measure of disappointment but mixed with a helping of disbelief as well in the way things have gone. Your point though is about disappointment as regards promotion.
I jumped at the chance to get my own window cleaning NVQ as soon as they came out. I saw them as a means, "at last" to differentiate myself, has a professional window cleaner, from the less reputable. I never expected window cleaners en masse to take up NVQ's but i thought there would be lots of others like me, who would want them for the same reason.
Promotions-wise a lot was/is done, advertising and editorially wise. . I don’t think most individual training centres for the cleaning industry promote the window cleaning NVQ though simply because they lack the expertise (a combination of window cleaning skills using such things as cherry pickers, cradles and travelling gantries along with the required NVQ assessor qualification) with which to provide them. Perhaps the best marketing material came from the British Window Cleaning Academy, though a lot of editorial was produced too by myself through the Federation's Window Talk magazine and other trade literature. The Cleaning Industry National Training Organisation has produced literature referring to window cleaning NVQ's as well. Moffat’s in Scotland are a good source for the Scottish VQ.
Why do you think that their is not so much interest in anyone going for the whole NVQ qualification, is it too hard?
NVQ’s are not too hard for the people they are meant for. The core purpose of an NVQ is to confirm and certify an individual’s competence. If someone is new to the trade and has a lot to learn strictly speaking an NVQ is not for them. NVQ’s are designed as an assessment of competence. While NVQ’s are commonly used as a training mechanism by many colleges and other training centres, that was not their original purpose. Of course NVQ assessment will show up areas of occupational competence that require improvement, and the NVQ standards themselves need to be explained to the candidate, but that is not the same thing.
It is commonly accepted that the choice as to whether whole NVQ’s should be worked for or not should be left to the judgement of the candidate and/or their employer. This recognition is built into the NVQ system. They call it “Unit Accreditation”. Additional units can be sort later. Sometimes in certain circumstances the full NVQ may not be relevant. A window cleaner that lives his working life on a cradle for example may not be interested in units that address other areas of competence such as ladders or cherry pickers for example – or visa versa. However that same window cleaner would probably find the cradle unit invaluable as a means to providing formally recognised evidence of his knowledge, skill and experience.
Why don't the Fed promote the NVQ?
It’s interesting to see you have the impression the Fed doesn’t! The Fed has promoted NVQ’s to a point but I think if you examined the facts for yourself you would conclude that they have also been unhelpful, awkward, and obstructive about them.
In past years Executive Committee members gave up copious amounts of time, without any sort of pay, or remuneration, in the initial development of NVQ’s. Window Talk carried articles on NVQ’s. The Federation made provision for what was essentially an NVQ booth at each of its annual trade shows. They sponsored me to represent them in their promotion and development.
With respect to the, “unhelpful, awkward, and obstructive” aspect I would be more than very interested to hear from any Federation member, that anyone might be able to refer me to, that accepted the Federation’s offer of an NVQ, that appeared in the October 2002 Window Talk (p.10, 11) I am interested to know whether the matter was just left or whether the Federation gave them a reason for not going ahead with the scheme, and if the Federation, gave a reason what that reason was. I am also interested to know what happened with the Scottish VQ's.
Andrew from Edu-CleanPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 19 October 2003
Am i right in thinking that the full NVQ for window cleaners is about £1000
Steve Lowe
There is no fixed cost for an NVQ . What you would be charged is for your NVQ provider to decide.
As a practicing window cleaner, with the mind of a window cleaner, someone asking me how much an NVQ costs is like someone asking me how much it costs to clean a house … or a shop front … or an office block etc. The answer depends on a number of variables that need to be looked at first.
Referring to my own business Edu-Clean, we look at where the potential NVQ candidate might be, how many there are in the same place, and how many areas of competence we might be able to assess per visit and such like.
The £1000 figure might come from a provider who requires you to go to them and has a rigid programme of activity. We go to the work site of the candidate and plan before hand to make the delivery of the NVQ as economic to the client as possible. If both parties demonstrate flexibility usually good savings can be made.
Andrew from Edu-CleanPosted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 19 October 2003
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the reply. So if their is no set procedure or standard that needs to be met what would be the point of going for it in the first place
StevePosted by Rob_B (Rob_B), 19 October 2003
If people harp on about spending £45 for membership of the Fed, I can't see too many people forking out a grand for an NVQ, after all, just as many people have ask me if I have an NVQ as they have if I'm in the fed. Nobody!Posted by g_griffin (g_griffin), 19 October 2003
i agree,people just want a good job doing for as little as possible. Posted by andy (andy), 19 October 2003
Thats whats lacking in this industry! no body is really prepared to spend money and train as much as possible to make this a recognised industry to work in.
ITS LIKE A TREND! The customer doesent care because they know that they are only a window cleaner.
If people got trained up! after a while bad window cleaners would drop away and the the industry can start charging more.
It would be good to also see pro window cleaners get togeather and do big promotions around the country.
WE NEED TO START MAKING A THING THAT EVERYONE DOES AND HAVE TO DO.
LIKE HOVERING YOU FLOOR 2-3 TMES A WEEK!
ANDY!Posted by Rob_B (Rob_B), 19 October 2003
I have got all my work through word of mouth of me doing a good job.
I clean everybodys windows like they were my own including wiping down the frames.
It is because of this that I have more work than I can possibly do at the moment, and why the majority of my customers dropped their "on the side money for a pint" window cleaners. 70% have their windows cleaned fortnightly and they don't mind me charging more than others because they get a good job done.Posted by Polepro (Polepro), 20 October 2003
Rob is right, people pay for the service they recieve rather than the act of having their windows cleaned. poeple who want good service know that you need to make enough money to cover your holidays, sick days, bad weather days and your pension, They're not so much paying to have their windows cleaned so much as paying someone they like and trust around their property to come back and do it again and again. If only some of your customers are like this you need to filter your customer base and only add quality customers to your round. Of course quality customers deserve a quality service and you must provide this and continuously strive to improve your service by looking at the lates innovations and taking trianing on board when it is offered. If window cleaners are appethetic then those who serve them will also become appethetic.
TomPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 20 October 2003
So if their is no set procedure or standard that needs to be met what would be the point of going for it in the first place
I'm not sure how you arrived at that the above conclusion from what i wrote you. If there is something i need to re-explained please let me know
I understood your question to be about NVQ fees, and nothing more.
If "their is no set procedure or standard that needs to be met", i agree there certainly would not be any, "point of going for it in the first place".
Andrew form Edu-CleanPosted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 20 October 2003
Hi Andrew,
What i was trying to say but did not put over properly was Does everyone start an NVQ at the same point and if not what does an NVQ actually count for? If i was to start a course at college say with computers for a recognised qualification no matter how much i knew i would still have to start from the beginning.
Steve LowePosted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 22 October 2003
Hi all
I joined the Fed on the 2nd October 2003. Today I had a couple of problems regarding health and safety wanted to get some help with my logo.
When I called I spoke to someone about the HSE problems and got some great advice (problem over) and expecting some paper work regarding the problem too. Then spoke to another department and spoke to ken in the office and he too was really friendly and helpful.
I believe there is good and bad in any organisation at home/ away etc, and easy to jump on the band wagon and get involved with all the politics and the dirt.
I personally would rather not get involved I called them today and the help I got was excellent. (And this is not blowing smoke up anyone’s arse credit where credits due)
Where else could you get direct help like that its like your own citizens advise.
If you have not tried it don’t knock it and people in glasshouses and all that
Cheers
Alan Posted by gibbouk (gibbouk), 22 October 2003
i am sorry but i see no need for an nvq in window cleaning for us experianced window cleaners.
a few years ago my brother had a visit from the nvq representitive. telling him about the importance of a nvq qualification. a mechanic with a full aprentership and 12 years experiance. he took the exam and said it was a complete waste of time as anyone with a interest in mechanics could have passed it. basicly it was a money generator for the college. so when he went for a job with a major vechile engineering company did they ask for his nvq........ no. maybe they would like to teach my grannie to suck eggs as wellPosted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 22 October 2003
I must say the nvq thingy is ok if you want to blow about a grand it was only 1995 I knew of the nat fed
meeting on a show called BBC record Breakers,none
other than a chap called a Mr Bisley and Mick wilde from
syr I had been window cleaning for some 20 years 
and only just found out about the fed! there is still much work to be done,to make the window cleaning world a safe and a good one,not that it isnt what I am
trying to say is ,the normal window cleaner does not give a dam about nvqs,as someone said a good job,for the correct price,is all that counts these days! the interest simply does not seem to be there,you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink 
get me drift Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 22 October 2003
Hi all
Today I spoke to a couple of the local councils about doing tender work and what did they ask?
What training and qualifications did I have?
This is the same for the H&S never been asked till
recently.
So will it be in time that the bigger companies will want to see contractors hold these qualifications.
Will these be a way of separating the processional company to the chap working on the side?
Who knows?
But tell you something times are changing
Cheers
AlanPosted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 22 October 2003
I think you are correct to say that in another 5 to 10 years I think you will see it! Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 22 October 2003
Hi again
I have noticed change in other industries I learned about drainage a while ago so I could offer a larger cleaning service and over the last 4 years the business has changed completely.
With H&S and training, environmental issues, this to will knock on to our business emptying water down drains (S/W) doing wash downs if using chemical where does the water go down the drain all stuff like that.
Training to show you’re competent etc etc
Could insurance companies also ask for proof of training?
Who knows
AlanPosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 22 October 2003
Alan,
Some insurance companies are now asking for Health & Safety policies and details of Staff training, documentation etc. before offering Employers Liability Insurance, this is new to me this year.
Single operators will probably be able to get their Public Liability Insurance from the Banks for some years to come, but it is definitely a different market now for Employers. I can see some sort of certification in the future.
Martin Warman
Executive Council Member
N.F.M.W& G.C.Posted by Bones (Bones the Winda Kleena), 22 October 2003
Hey guy's! I thought i'd seen the last of the dreaded NVQ when I jacked my job in at the weekend!!
To me, a holder of 4 NVQ's they mean Jack Poop! Two of the NVQ's that I have basically qualify me of walking onto a factory floor and emptying powder into containers
The Company I left (a very well known food factory), look at seem to regard NVQ's higher than City & Guilds/time served tradesmen. As an example There was a fitter/engineer i worked with. He had 20 years experience in "airliner" engineering, repairing, checking them before flights etc. 15 years working on factory machinery. Then he was told he had to do an NVQ in engineering to prove he knew what he was doing basically and if he did not complete or pass this he would loose his job!! figure that out
As I see it, if you were to do an NVQ for window cleaning it would take about 4 pages of checks and questions just to put your applicator in and out of your holster!!
If anyone does not know what nvq questionaires look like i'd be happy to scan them and forward them to you if you wanted to see what they involve just out of interest.
MikeyPosted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 22 October 2003
I think they will invent a bit of paper thats says
this person has got common sense! thats about what nvqs are! but you cant buy common sense,can you? Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 22 October 2003
Hi Martin
I agree it is all going a bit crazy is it anything to do with the European directive?
I have been checking out H&S issues and it does work out that if you are a one man band or don’t have more then 5 employees working for you, you don't need a health and safety policy but seems proceedings are being put in place to encourage small company's to have health and safety policy’s. I got a template from H&SE but do people realise that these are legal papers and need to be followed and filled out correctly or your company is at risk from prosecution if anything goes wrong or dont follow to while working. (I think I have it right) I told my mate who has passed his H&S if he was interested in drawing policy’s up for small business and he said no as if anything went wrong he could be the one open to prosecution.
But seems without it will it hold you back?
I think training is not a bad thing as long as it is going to improve your business in the long run but experience must count for something or does it now days?
Cheers AlanPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 23 October 2003
Just a few comments on NVQ's to answer questions and clarify.
What i was trying to say but did not put over properly was Does everyone start an NVQ at the same point and if not what does an NVQ actually count for? If i was to start a course at college say with computers for a recognised qualification no matter how much i knew i would still have to start from the beginning.
Steve Lowe
Everyone must start from the same point, which is an initial planning stage. Details to establish at the beginning are which NVQ units will the NVQ candidate work for, when and where NVQ assessment will be delivered, and the types of evidence of competence the candidate might want/be able to submit.
To use your example, a cleaning NVQ, like many computer (and other) courses these days have a framework of obligatory (core) and optional units. Those who obtain the same qualification may not have followed an identical route to achieve.
With respect to a college course and a NVQ centre, I work in both environments. To survive and obtain funding a college must put “bums on seats” on a consistent basis. That means college course delivery is not necessarily based on what best suits your level of competence but on boosting their attendance figures. The result of that might be a “sucking eggs” process for some involved. Of course vocational colleges are usually NVQ centres, but NVQ’ assessment centres in their purest form have nothing to do with a college. They are tailored to the individual and operate in the work place.
I must say the nvq thingy is ok if you want to blow about a grand … I think they will invent a bit of paper thats says this person has got common sense! thats about what nvqs are
Terry Burrows
Somebody else in the Forum mentioned the figure of £1000 Terry! I would very much appreciate the source of your information.
The Company I left (a very well known food factory), look at seem to regard NVQ's higher than City & Guilds/time served tradesmen…As I see it, if you were to do an NVQ for window cleaning it would take about 4 pages of checks and questions just to put your applicator in and out of your holster!!
If anyone does not know what nvq questionaires look like i'd be happy to scan them and forward them to you if you wanted to see what they involve just out of interest.
Mikey
NVQ's higher than City & Guilds/time served tradesmen
All cleaning NVQ’s, including the window cleaning NVQ, ARE City & Guilds qualifications. In cleaning they are one and the same. Those who deliver the cleaning NVQ’s must meet certain City & Guilds qualifications themselves to deliver them.
If anyone does not know what nvq questionaires look like i'd be happy to scan them and forward them
I would very much like to see the questionnaires you mention Mikey, to see if I could learn anything from them that would help me with my providing NVQ’s. Having said that, whilst a questionnaire might be used. I personally have never seen anyone use them in the cleaning industry. Questions are essential in the process to establish that the candidate has the required underpinning knowledge and understanding (i.e. they know why they are doing something the way they are doing it, and the importance of it) but questions are often answered without being asked through the course of normal conversation about the job. It becomes evident from either the way a task is undertaken, or the comments of the candidate, or both, that they know why they are doing some thing a particular way, and what the implications are. In cleaning most of us find residual questions are best dealt with in a conversational manner after assessment, and provide an opportunity for looking at case studies, legislation, simulations, tying up any "loose ends" and such like.
Andrew from Edu-Clean UKPosted by Bryan_Dolby (Bryan_Dolby), 23 October 2003
Mikey
You seem to have some experiance of NVQs
Would you do a window cleaning NVQ at around £1000.00
or put the money to a different use say
Join federation £50.00
Yellow pages advert £120.00
Corporate clothing £100.00
Advertising logo vehicle £110.00
buy some new work £500.00
Produce leaflets to distribute £100.00
Costing of above might vary to differant areas
Anybody can reply
bryanPosted by Bones (Bones the Winda Kleena), 23 October 2003
Andrew sorry mate, I got a bit wound up (shaking, nightmares about the factory came back!) I did not mention that NVQ are city and guilds, sorry my mistake, but to me it's just how it is all gone about.
Let's take my X workplace as an example. They had nvq trainers to come in and train 5 people to become nvq assesors, these new assesors were assesed while assesing us! with me so far? as soon as i (as i was in the 1st batch to be assesed by the trainee assesors being assesed , 
ha ha), was passed the assesors were classed as competent in assesing!?? no matter how many muck up's they made along the way? so basically the company could make anyone pass an NVQ if it was needed if you know what I mean.
Another way to look at it is, to enter the factory you had to:
1. put on correct company work clothes.
2. Lock your civi gear in your locker.
3. make your way sensibley to the factory floor.
4. wash your hands with soap.
5. rinse your hands and wipe with paper towel.
(that is a shortened version believe me). Let's say that is one NVQ unit, you could get steps 1,2,3 & 4 right and get 5 wrong. but when you are "observed" again you can totally/blatantly muck up steps 1 to 4 and just get step 5 right and you've passed!! suss that!!
and i'm gonna go on a bit more,.... sorry!
Just to prove summit to the management at the factory i had a little wager with one of the managers. He and 4 other managers were put forward for an NVQ level III in supervisory management. as the company liked to help employees with college etc, i said i wanted to do the same course and that i could pass it even though i'm a low life floor person. it was agreed & the bet was on!!
For a year i went to college with all these big headed pratts, got the p*ss ripped evreyweek (but they got worse back believe me). They had no probs in getting their evidence and witness statements through doing business with outside firms etc, i got my witness statements and evidence by contacting another dept at the other end of the site, ha ha!! that still classes in NVQ terms as outside sources at the end of the year, i handed my 2 folder portfolio in, of course they had 3 or 4 folders and the end result, i passed! they were very 
and he had to pay up!! and,.. the tutor said my portfolio was the cleverist he had ever marked, minimal and very well thought out
So basically i have no experience in man management, no experience in running a factory, but i have the qualification to become the factory general manager, all within "1 YEAR"!!
Thats why i personally think NVQ's stink!! to be polite,
Oh dear i've been running on again, sorry
yes Andrew i'll scan some for you and forward them.Posted by Bones (Bones the Winda Kleena), 23 October 2003
Brian sorry i did not reply to your post, the answer is yes!! i know what i'd rather spend my money on, "drink and women"!! Posted by Bryan_Dolby (Bryan_Dolby), 23 October 2003
Mikey
I have a remedy for your nightmers
JOIN THE FEDERATION
BryanPosted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 24 October 2003
Andrew the very big rumour has it,it costs up to and
could be more than £1000 for this NVQ paper! out of
interest what is your hourly rate for Educlean or daily one Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 30 October 2003
Hi all
Talking about training my local council asked if I had any training on using ladders
Out of interest who does training?
and how much?
and is it a 2-3 hr course and is it more a common sense course
Cheers
alan
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